Departure of the Galadhrim

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I've always wondered why Lorien was utterly deserted by the time Arwen came to die, while other elvish kingdoms endured. East Lorien (formerly Dol Guldur) and Thranduil's Woodland Realm remained inhabited, as well as Rivendell and Ithilien (and most likely the Grey Havens), but why would the folk of Lorien abandon their home completely? I understand that perhaps this is connected to the Mallorn, that without Galadriel's ring, it must fade. But the Silvan elves have lived in Lorien long before Celeborn and Galadriel came. They stayed and did not cross the Misty Mountains. So why would they desert Lorien completely?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I understand that perhaps this is connected to the Mallorn, that without Galadriel's ring, it must fade. But the Silvan elves have lived in Lorien long before Celeborn and Galadriel came. They stayed and did not cross the Misty Mountains. So why would they desert Lorien completely?

I think you already have the right idea. Maybe going from rude woodland folk indistinguishable from others in Wilderland, to a highly enriched people under the influence of probably the oldest and wisest of the Eldar left in ME, Galadriel, only made the Galadhrim feel the loss of Lórien as an 'enchanted' place that much more keenly. Watching their home wither after it had withstood the ravages of time all those years would seem to be rather depressing.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think you already have the right idea. Maybe going from rude woodland folk indistinguishable from others in Wilderland, to a highly enriched people under the influence of probably the oldest and wisest of the Eldar left in ME, Galadriel, only made the Galadhrim feel the loss of Lórien as an 'enchanted' place that much more keenly. Watching their home wither after it had withstood the ravages of time all those years would seem to be rather depressing.

So where did they go?

West, to the Grey Havens, with the older and arguably wiser (sorry Inzil ) Cirdan (and maybe then crossed the Sea)?

We know that the Silvan Elves:

Originally Posted by UT, History of Galadriel and Celeborn

Were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the Sea which at times drove some of them to wander from their homes.

So maybe this was just taken a bit further once Galadriel and Celeborn left and the Silvan elves were left to fend for themselves.

Or could they have gone to Mirkwood?


Does it ever say where they went?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So where did they go?

I don't recall anything to say definitively where the Lórien Elves went, but I think Mirkwood would have been the most likely destination. It was geographically near to Lórien, and its people would have spoken the Silvan language the Lórien Elves knew.
I can't see them going Over Sea, at least not at once. The sea-longing had to be awakened in the Silvan Elves before it would manifest. Before Legolas journeyed by the coast, he never had any desire to sail or be near the Sea.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think you already have the right idea. Maybe going from rude woodland folk indistinguishable from others in Wilderland, to a highly enriched people under the influence of probably the oldest and wisest of the Eldar left in ME, Galadriel, only made the Galadhrim feel the loss of Lórien as an 'enchanted' place that much more keenly. Watching their home wither after it had withstood the ravages of time all those years would seem to be rather depressing.

But why could the Galadhrim not simply revert back to their old ways, rather than desert Lórien. They were ruled by Amroth even before Galadriel and Celeborn. And Amroth did not posses an elven ring to halt decay, yet they were content and happy. And if the loss of Galadriel's influence weighed heavily on them, why would they not follow Celeborn (who would probably rule like Galadriel), and they tranfer over to Amon Lanc and to Thranduil's kingdom (lesser than their culture)? Yet some elves still lived in Rivendell. Did they (those of Rivendell) not feel as much loss after the departure of Elrond? Or was it because Galadriel seemed to use the full powers of her ring, Nenya, that it had some profound effect on the Galadhrim compared to those in Rivendell (Elrond uses Vilya conservatively or that he couldn't tap Vilya's full power like Galadriel can with Nenya)?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

And if the loss of Galadriel's influence weighed heavily on them, why would they not follow Celeborn (who would probably rule like Galadriel), and they tranfer over to Amon Lanc and to Thranduil's kingdom (lesser than their culture)? Yet some elves still lived in Rivendell. Did they (those of Rivendell) not feel as much loss after the departure of Elrond? Or was it because Galadriel seemed to use the full powers of her ring, Nenya, that it had some profound effect on the Galadhrim compared to those in Rivendell (Elrond uses Vilya conservatively or that he couldn't tap Vilya's full power like Galadriel can with Nenya)?

Personally, I see no reason why any of the people of Elrond would have wished to stay after the Third Age ended, unless it was due to an ideal of 'penance' of some sort. Perhaps those who remained still had a feeling of guilt for things they'd done long ago while following Fëanor. Actually, there seems to be some question as to whether or not any of them (not including the sons of Elrond) did stay behind. I know there is a quote in the Prologue which says that 'some of the High-elven folk' were still dweliing in Rivendell after Elrond left, but there's also this from The Silmarillion:

....the power of the Three Rings also was ended, and to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey. In that time the last of the Noldor set sail from the Havens and left Middle-earth for ever.

Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

I don't know which is the 'true' version, but I think there's room for debate anyway.
Regardless, I don't think you can put the Noldor and the Lórien elves in the same boat (no pun intended ).
When I said the Galdhrim likely went to Mirkwood, I was including Celeborn's East Lórien there. Once he deserted them, why wouldn't they have stayed in Mirkwood? They had kinsfolk who spoke their language, a Sindarin king, and they weren't bound to hang around in Lórien and watch it decay.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But why could the Galadhrim not simply revert back to their old ways, rather than desert Lórien. They were ruled by Amroth even before Galadriel and Celeborn. And Amroth did not posses an elven ring to halt decay, yet they were content and happy.

Could perhaps Nenya have actually rendered Lorien unsustainable as a homeland without its power? I suppose you could take this environmentally, but even in a more spiritual sense--that much unchanging for so much time would have been devastating when change actually happened. Compare with when a dam bursts--yes, the land and the people living there seem to have done well before the dam was built, but the sheer destructive force that the dam's absence creates makes it much, much more difficult to go back to the way things were. When an entire society becomes dependent on one thing, and that thing is lost, the society doesn't survive too long--compare with how Doriath fared after the departure of Melian and her girdle.

[Galin]

Since the language has been mentioned... the matter of the speech of Mirkwood seems a bit knotty...

A) In a 'late' text published in Unfinished Tales it was said Oropher (father of Thranduil father of Legolas) and some Sindar merged with the Silvan Elves 'adopting their language'.

B) In another late text (same book) it was said that by the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in Lórien and the Realm of Thranduil.

3) According to another passage ('late' again) Sindarin was said to be used in Thranduil's house -- thus used by his son Legolas one would expect -- 'though not by all his folk.'

§) And in a letter dated Dec. 1972 (another late example!) Tolkien explained that: 'The Silvan Elves of Thranduil's realm did not speak S. but a related language or dialect.'

This last mention is pretty late, but anyway Tolkien himself published (Appendix F) that in Lórien (at least) at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an 'accent', since most of its folk were of Silvan origin. So we can say this much, I guess.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Since the language has been mentioned... the matter of the speech of Mirkwood seems a bit knotty...

A) In a 'late' text published in Unfinished Tales it was said Oropher (father of Thranduil father of Legolas) and some Sindar merged with the Silvan Elves 'adopting their language'.

B) In another late text (same book) it was said that by the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in Lórien and the Realm of Thranduil.

3) According to another passage ('late' again) Sindarin was said to be used in Thranduil's house -- thus used by his son Legolas one would expect -- 'though not by all his folk.'

§) And in a letter dated Dec. 1972 (another late example!) Tolkien explained that: 'The Silvan Elves of Thranduil's realm did not speak S. but a related language or dialect.'

This last mention is pretty late, but anyway Tolkien himself published (Appendix F) that in Lórien (at least) at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an 'accent', since most of its folk were of Silvan origin. So we can say this much, I guess.

Well, Legolas and the Galadhrim spoke the Silvan tongue to one another when the Fellowship entered Lórien.

Frodo could understand little of what was said, for the speech that the Silvan folk east of the mountains used among themselves was unlike that of the West. Legolas looked up and answered in the same language.

FOTR Lothlórien

Frodo would likely have understood Sindarin, so they had to have been speaking the Silvan dialect.

[Galin]

Yes, but without going into the detail of Words, Phrases, And Passages, Tolkien decided, for the second edition IIRC, to add...

'In Lórien at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an 'accent', since most of its people were of Silvan origin. This 'accent' and his own limited acquaintance with Sindarin misled Frodo (as is pointed out in The Thain's Book by a commentator of Gondor). All the Elvish words cited in book I, ii, chs 6, 7, 8 are in fact Sindarin, and so are most of the names of places and persons. But Lórien, Caras Galadhon, Amroth, Nimrodel are probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin.'

Footnote to Appendix F (I'm pretty sure this was added for the second edition)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Yes, but without going into the detail of Words, Phrases, And Passages, Tolkien decided, for the second edition IIRC, to add...

'In Lórien at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an 'accent', since most of its people were of Silvan origin. This 'accent' and his own limited acquaintance with Sindarin misled Frodo (as is pointed out in The Thain's Book by a commentator of Gondor). All the Elvish words cited in book I, ii, chs 6, 7, 8 are in fact Sindarin, and so are most of the names of places and persons. But Lórien, Caras Galadhon, Amroth, Nimrodel are probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin.'

Footnote to Appendix F (I'm pretty sure this was added for the second edition)

All the same, if Legolas was able to communicate with the Elves of Lórien regardless of what language it was, presumably many others of Thranduil's people also could have done so, which would have made Mirkwood an inviting place for them to stay after Celeborn's departure.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

When I said the Galdhrim likely went to Mirkwood, I was including Celeborn's East Lórien there. Once he deserted them, why wouldn't they have stayed in Mirkwood? They had kinsfolk who spoke their language, a Sindarin king, and they weren't bound to hang around in Lórien and watch it decay.

But did not Mirkwood decay also (far more faster as it did wasn't subject to any of the Three)? Remember Haldir's words concerning the roots of the trees of Mirkwood striving against each other and their branches rotting and withering away. I just find it contradictory if they left Lórien that soon. I mean the lingering elves could have made use of Galadriel's earth in her orchard (what Sam used to grow the mallorn in the Shire) to maintain what they can of the Golden Wood. And the Mallorns! Why would they forsake it so readily? Mallorns were still there even when Arwen came to pass away. So what if Nenya and Galadriel had gone? I'm sure Lórien of the 4th age was still fairer than Mirkwood will ever be.

Miscellaneous question: The elves that beautified Ithilien... could they have been of the Galadhrim who carried some of the earth from Galadriel's orchard?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But did not Mirkwood decay also (far more faster as it did wasn't subject to any of the Three)? Remember Haldir's words concerning the roots of the trees of Mirkwood striving against each other and their branches rotting and withering away. I just find it contradictory if they left Lórien that soon. I mean the lingering elves could have made use of Galadriel's earth in her orchard (what Sam used to grow the mallorn in the Shire) to maintain what they can of the Golden Wood. And the Mallorns! Why would they forsake it so readily? Mallorns were still there even when Arwen came to pass away. So what if Nenya and Galadriel had gone? I'm sure Lórien of the 4th age was still fairer than Mirkwood will ever be.

Those are good points, and the only real answer I can posit is that Galadriel had so become the 'heart' of Lórien in the years she had dwelt there that upon her departure what was left seemed hollow and empty, mallorns or not. If Celeborn himself saw no reason to remain in Lórien into the Fourth Age, something must have been missing.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Miscellaneous question: The elves that beautified Ithilien... could they have been of the Galadhrim who carried some of the earth from Galadriel's orchard?

I don't see why not. That brings to mind Legolas's words to Gimli as they strolled through Minas Tirith.

'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'

ROTK The Last Debate

'The Wood' could mean Mirkwood, I guess, but the 'trees that do die'? That certainly has a Lórien connotation.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Galin

Yes, but without going into the detail of Words, Phrases, And Passages, Tolkien decided, for the second edition IIRC, to add...

'In Lórien at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an 'accent', since most of its people were of Silvan origin. This 'accent' and his own limited acquaintance with Sindarin misled Frodo (as is pointed out in The Thain's Book by a commentator of Gondor). All the Elvish words cited in book I, ii, chs 6, 7, 8 are in fact Sindarin, and so are most of the names of places and persons. But Lórien, Caras Galadhon, Amroth, Nimrodel are probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin.'

Footnote to Appendix F (I'm pretty sure this was added for the second edition)

An example comes to mind. Suppose a Russian studies English in high school for two years, maybe three. Suppose he learns how to say, "A star shines on the hour of our meeting." Well and good.

Now he comes down east to Maine (Ayuh, a staar shiines on the owah of owah meet'n.)

Then he goes to Manhattan, and thence to New Jersey. I won't try to type those in. But you get the idea. "These people don't speak English at all...."

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But did not Mirkwood decay also (far more faster as it did wasn't subject to any of the Three)? Remember Haldir's words concerning the roots of the trees of Mirkwood striving against each other and their branches rotting and withering away. I just find it contradictory if they left Lórien that soon. I mean the lingering elves could have made use of Galadriel's earth in her orchard (what Sam used to grow the mallorn in the Shire) to maintain what they can of the Golden Wood. And the Mallorns! Why would they forsake it so readily? Mallorns were still there even when Arwen came to pass away. So what if Nenya and Galadriel had gone? I'm sure Lórien of the 4th age was still fairer than Mirkwood will ever be.

Miscellaneous question: The elves that beautified Ithilien... could they have been of the Galadhrim who carried some of the earth from Galadriel's orchard?

There's Mirkwood and Mirkwood. Nearer Thranduil's palace, I doubt the trees were so ill-behaved. And Mirkwood was cleansed and became Greenwood again.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

There's Mirkwood and Mirkwood. Nearer Thranduil's palace, I doubt the trees were so ill-behaved. And Mirkwood was cleansed and became Greenwood again.

Sure, Mirkwood was cleansed but I doubt it was more beautiful than the Galadhrim's former abode. Maybe they too were affected by Nenya, ring of water, like Galadriel, and awoke their desires to cross the Sea. It doesn't make sense for them to adapt back into their rustic lifestyle like the elves of Mirkwood.

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I've always wondered why Lorien was utterly deserted by the time Arwen came to die...why would the folk of Lorien abandon their home completely?

I noticed this before too and it didn't seem to make much sense. However, maybe the Lorien elves were simply following Celeborn's lead since he chose to remove to southern Mirkwood. Celeborn may have made this choice for himself because he didn't want to be constantly reminded of Galadriel's absence. Also, the Lorien elves lived in southern Mirkwood previously until Sauron drove them out long before the War of the Ring. Some of those fleeing elves went north and others crossed the Anduin and established the realm in Lorien. After Sauron's defeat the Lorien elves may simply have wanted to return to their old home.

[Findegil]

It is true that Sauron drove the Elves north in Mirkwood, but Lorien was already inhabited by the woodelves long before that time. Sure, the contact between the Mirkwood-Elves and the Lorien-Elves before the former moved north was close, so that there might have been some of the Mirkwood-Elves going to Lorien instead of north. But I don't think that this happend enough to make the move to Greenwood in the fourth age a return home.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galadriel55]

I have another question in mind: what happened to the Elves of Rivendell and why couldn't the Galadhrim go there? As we know, Elrond had Vilya, and although he didn't use it as much as Galadriel used Nenya, his absense was felt keenly by his Elves. Why couldn't the two "collapsed civilizations" unite? They have a lot in common as well.
As for why the Galadhrim left so quickly, maybe they understood that after Galadriel's departure they will not be able to live regular "Galadhrim lives". They faced two major changes: Galadriel leaving and them leaving Lothlorien. Maybe they just didn't want to stretch the tie between them.
Moreover, it says that eventually all the Elves will leave ME. How and why? Mirkwood Elves aren't bothered by the memory of Valinor. Legolas wanted to leave only because he heard the Sea, but not all Mirkwood Elves did, so why should they leave?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I have another question in mind: what happened to the Elves of Rivendell and why couldn't the Galadhrim go there? As we know, Elrond had Vilya, and although he didn't use it as much as Galadriel used Nenya, his absense was felt keenly by his Elves. Why couldn't the two "collapsed civilizations" unite? They have a lot in common as well.

A remnant of the people of Rivendell possibly did stay there after Elrond's departure, but I think there's room for debate on that subject (see the above comments).
Even if some did remain in Imladris after Elrond left though, they really didn't have that much in common with the Galadhrim. The former were Noldor, the latter Silvan, with a different culture. I can't really see the Lórien folk actively seeking out Rivendell, when there were other Elves more closely akin and much nearer at hand in Mirkwood.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Moreover, it says that eventually all the Elves will leave ME. How and why? Mirkwood Elves aren't bothered by the memory of Valinor. Legolas wanted to leave only because he heard the Sea, but not all Mirkwood Elves did, so why should they leave?

The leaving of the Elves was tied to the arrival of the Age of Men, in which the other 'speaking peoples' of Middle-earth gave way for Men's dominance. Additionally, I think all Elves, even the Moriquendi in Mirkwood, would sooner or later have felt the call of the Sea. Legolas was merely hit by it earlier because of his encounter with the seagulls. It seems to me that all Elves really belonged in the Undying Lands, a place where the environment was perfectly suited to their own "immortal" nature.

[Galin]

Still Tolkien refers to the Lingerers, Elves who remained so long in Middle-earth that they faded in the body.

How many and how long they remained... I'm not sure. The latest version of the poem The Trees of Cortirion suggests these Lingerers in my opinion.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

...Then he goes to Manhattan, and thence to New Jersey. I won't try to type those in. But you get the idea. "These people don't speak English at all...."

Yea, as in Prof Henry Higgins (My Fair Lady) "There even are places where English Completely disappears. In America, they haven't used it for years!"