The Valley Forge - WW LXXXVII - Admin Thread

[Pitchwife]

Hmm, this does indeed sound very promising. I'm not actually sure that I should play at this time (having a three months old puppy around who demands attention and is still prone to leaving malodorous protest notes all over the house whenever I spend too much time at the computer), but if the sign-up continues as sluggishly as it's been these past days, I'll be sorely tempted (especially with a 3pm CT = 9pm GMT DL, which would be pure candy for me on most Days) - so maybe you can sign me up with a question mark for the time being?

Anyway, a few questions/comments:

1. Does the KD count as an innocent or as a Forger in the tally - i.e. what happens when the village is down to one or two innocents, one Forger and the KD? (If I remember correctly, the 'saboteur' role Zil had in Eönwë's game counted as a wolf, so part of his job description was to get himself lynched along with his packmates.)

2. The above is closely connected with the following:

Originally Posted by Foley

I had thought the game could keep going, but it would be pointless as the night round would be obsolete because the King's Dwarf would stand against any more killing. So I guess at that point, the K.D. would be able to announce himself to the village and they'd kill the last member. But I'm kind of imagining that the members of the Forge would have figured out who the K.D. was by the time they're down to two. I think it'll be a pretty close game.

This situation is going to arise as soon as the next-to-last genuine Forger is lynched and his/her role revealed; at this point the last one will realize that their remaining 'packmate' has to be the KD and will kill him this very Night, before the KD can announce himself to the village. If the Night Watchman is still alive, the KD can try to get himself protected and reveal the next Day, otherwise it'll be game over, Forge wins.
Which means (unless I'm overlooking something) that the game is only winnable for the KD and the innocents if the NW survives long enough. Left to himself, without protection, the KD can't win.

3. Maybe this is just me, but I suggest you reconsider about the Forge gaining instant victory by killing the KD. I feel it's a little hard on the ordinary innocents to make the outcome of the game dependent on the survival of a single player, which is largely beyond their influence (especially under the conditions described above).

4. Will the KD be played by Bruce Dern? After all, Silent Running is his job description, isn't it?

[Glirdan]

Hmmm, i'm definitely interested but my work schedule and rehearsal schedule is a little whack...sign me up with a question mark for now and I'll let you know

[Loslote]

This looks absolutely amazing, but I need a WW vacation. I might be following along, but my mind is far too frazzled to play right now.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Oh, Galadriel, you have so much to learn about over hints.

That's true!, but my question was what is the limit of "saying it outright". I can say "monarch's messenger", and it's very obvious, but it's not saying it directly. Or you could describe the role. There are ways to say it outright without actually saying the word.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Hmm, this does indeed sound very promising. I'm not actually sure that I should play at this time (having a three months old puppy around who demands attention and is still prone to leaving malodorous protest notes all over the house whenever I spend too much time at the computer), but if the sign-up continues as sluggishly as it's been these past days, I'll be sorely tempted (especially with a 3pm CT = 9pm GMT DL, which would be pure candy for me on most Days) - so maybe you can sign me up with a question mark for the time being?

I can do that, especially as a lot of players have written me saying that they can't play due to scheduling. It may be a long time before this game actually gets started.

1. Does the KD count as an innocent or as a Forger in the tally - i.e. what happens when the village is down to one or two innocents, one Forger and the KD? (If I remember correctly, the 'saboteur' role Zil had in Eönwë's game counted as a wolf, so part of his job description was to get himself lynched along with his packmates.)

The KD counts as an innocent in the tally.

This situation is going to arise as soon as the next-to-last genuine Forger is lynched and his/her role revealed; at this point the last one will realize that their remaining 'packmate' has to be the KD and will kill him this very Night, before the KD can announce himself to the village. If the Night Watchman is still alive, the KD can try to get himself protected and reveal the next Day, otherwise it'll be game over, Forge wins.
Which means (unless I'm overlooking something) that the game is only winnable for the KD and the innocents if the NW survives long enough. Left to himself, without protection, the KD can't win.

Interesting thought and one that I had not considered.

Maybe this is just me, but I suggest you reconsider about the Forge gaining instant victory by killing the KD. I feel it's a little hard on the ordinary innocents to make the outcome of the game dependent on the survival of a single player, which is largely beyond their influence (especially under the conditions described above).

I put that clause in because it seemed like the KD had so much advantage over the Forges. But upon examining it, I realize that there is plenty of ways the KD might be knocked off and the Forges to regain their usual chances of winning. I will reconsider.

4. Will the KD be played by Bruce Dern? After all, Silent Running is his job description, isn't it?

I'm afraid I don't know who Bruce Dern is, so that reference went over my head.

Now, so far, there are nine names on the list and three of those are put down with question-marks. As I said above, lots of people have written saying they can't play for sometime - weeks or months - and I was wondering if it is advisesable to plan on waiting to start this game until at least some of these players are available? In the mean time, I can be reworking my idea and fine tuning it.

I think it'd be fine to keep this thread up. I like the conversation going on here and the suggestions you all are giving to me - I couldn't make it better without you. And also, if the thread remains up, people can keep signing up, however slowly. Just know, all you who have signed in, it might be a long time before the game actually starts. I'd like to know - are you alright with that?

I'd also like to know what's the minimum number of players? Twelve is what I have in mind, but I feel that might be boring. I'd like closer to fifteen or more. But we don't have more than six certain players, and twelve seems like a hard number to reach, much less fifteen!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Foley

I'm afraid I don't know who Bruce Dern is, so that reference went over my head.

Ah, sorry, I thought the title of the game was a nod to this old sci-fi movie where Bruce Dern's character turns against his crewmates in order to save the last greenhouse in space. The ship's name is Valley Forge.

Originally Posted by Foley

I put that clause in because it seemed like the KD had so much advantage over the Forges.

But does he? OK, he knows who they are, but as has been discussed it would be unwise for him to out them right away; so his biggest advantage will be the power to sabotage the Night-kills by tipping off the Watchman, but the way you put it, there's quite an uncertainty factor built into this:

Originally Posted by Foley

At the end of each Day, he will send the moderator a PM which will be sent to the Night Watchman. In this PM, he will note down who he thinks the Forge might kill that night.

(Emphasis mine)
From my experience, minds may change more than once during a wolf pack's Nightly discussions, so the KD's success will depend on his ability to either pre-guess his packmates' leanings or subtly steer their decision making so that they choose to kill the right (=protected) player. It's all rather chancy, I think.

Originally Posted by Foley

Just know, all you who have signed in, it might be a long time before the game actually starts. I'd like to know - are you alright with that?

Don't know about the others, but it's fine for me (as long as it doesn't draw out to RPG or Paper Telephone dimensions).

Originally Posted by Foley

I'd also like to know what's the minimum number of players? Twelve is what I have in mind, but I feel that might be boring. I'd like closer to fifteen or more. But we don't have more than six certain players, and twelve seems like a hard number to reach, much less fifteen!

Much as I personally prefer small, handy villages, I think you want a pack of four wolves/Forgers for this (three real ones + the KD) so that the KD's cover isn't blown to soon, so I guess twelve would be the minimum, better something around fourteen to sixteen. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to be taking a WW withdrawal cure at the moment...
But to help things along a little bit, scrap that question mark as far as I'm concerned. I've just decided I don't want to miss this!

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Folwren

During the day, they attempt to persuade their fellow dwarves to rise in a revolt against the king and take what is offered them from Lord Sauron. At night, they go forth and execute any who stand in their way, making examples of them for anyone else who wishes to stand against them.

So that'd make all the 'ordos' playing, loyal to Dáin..so even with their greatest threat in the 'King's Dwarf' slain (by them) they'd still need to be rid of the ouspoken loyalists ('ordos') in order to achieve supremacy and incite rebellion, so removing the insta win for the death of the 'King's Dwarf' at their hands wouldn't be too unplausable for the story?

So;

Perhaps the Forge might be rewarded some other way...on the death (by their hands) of the 'King's Dwarf' they're allowed a double execution perhaps?

..and on the talk of their being no seer and such, perhaps on the death of the 'King's Dwarf' by a lynch he passes on his knowledge/parts of about the Forge members, to his 'sweetheart' or something...?

~~~

For the next two weeks, the earlier deadline would be better for me. After which the later deadline would probably work best, but i'd busier. But you can count me in.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Mänwe

Perhaps the Forge might be rewarded some other way...on the death (by their hands) of the 'King's Dwarf' they're allowed a double execution perhaps?

Ah, I have an idea. The Sweetheart player won't like it, but so be it - what if, when the Forge Members kill the KD, they also kill the Sweetheart, as a revenge-ish sort of act.

As for the KD passing all his knowledge to the Sweetheart - I think that'd be a bit unfair, as then the sweetheart could come out the next day and say what she knows. I don't like restricting people by saying, "once the sweetheart knows all the secrets of the gang, she can't reveal and can't say what she knows" so I don't want to have the KD pass on his info. I am hoping that by the time the KD dies, he will have left enough of a trail behind him to incriminate at least one member.

This is going to be a hard game for whoever gets the part of the King's Dwarf.

For the next two weeks, the earlier deadline would be better for me. After which the later deadline would probably work best, but i'd busier. But you can count me in.

Welcome aboard.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Ah, sorry, I thought the title of the game was a nod to this old sci-fi movie where Bruce Dern's character turns against his crewmates in order to save the last greenhouse in space. The ship's name is Valley Forge.

Haha...no...I've never heard of it. It is a take off of something, but I'm not going to say what.

But does he? OK, he knows who they are, but as has been discussed it would be unwise for him to out them right away; so his biggest advantage will be the power to sabotage the Night-kills by tipping off the Watchman, but the way you put it, there's quite an uncertainty factor built into this.

From my experience, minds may change more than once during a wolf pack's Nightly discussions, so the KD's success will depend on his ability to either pre-guess his packmates' leanings or subtly steer their decision making so that they choose to kill the right (=protected) player. It's all rather chancy, I think.

You are right, and the more I consider the KD's role, the harder I realize it is, and I also realize how very little he may accomplish. The fact is, he may accomplish even less than a regular seer who at least has the protection of numbers, whereas the members of the Forge KNOWS he is one of their four or five.

Don't know about the others, but it's fine for me (as long as it doesn't draw out to RPG or Paper Telephone dimensions).

Ha! I hope not! I think I would quit then, too.

But to help things along a little bit, scrap that question mark as far as I'm concerned. I've just decided I don't want to miss this!

Awesome. I'm excited to have you.

[Inziladun]

Sorry I haven't been more active in the game discussion, just busy. That said, waiting a bit for this to start is not a problem for me.

[Mithalwen]

I think you need to aim for 15 players because 12 is really a minimum when all are active... with 15 you aren't so vulnerable to the odd drop out...

I can commit DVWP unless weeks stretches to months .. should be ok but my life is in a state of flux atm.

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Ah, I have an idea. The Sweetheart player won't like it, but so be it - what if, when the Forge Members kill the KD, they also kill the Sweetheart, as a revenge-ish sort of act.

nice and tragic

Originally Posted by Folwren

As for the KD passing all his knowledge to the Sweetheart - I think that'd be a bit unfair, as then the sweetheart could come out the next day and say what she knows. I don't like restricting people by saying, "once the sweetheart knows all the secrets of the gang, she can't reveal and can't say what she knows" so I don't want to have the KD pass on his info. I am hoping that by the time the KD dies, he will have left enough of a trail behind him to incriminate at least one member.

Fair point! Plus i'm glad there is no seer, any of that sort of gifted would be undwarf.

[Thinlómien]

As long as you don't start before Monday, I can be in. My participation might be limited though (next week's my first week of school in my student exchange - *waves from Prague*) and I have to say I didn't check the rules yet. Seems interesting though from the little I gathered! Dwarven lovers = awesome.

[Folwren]

Don't worry, Lommy, we won't start afore Monday.

Welcome aboard.

[Nerwen]

I realise I forgot to sign up! So count me in, please, Foley.

[Kitanna]

Sadly I don't think I can play. I have to go back to work and that'll be annoying and stressful which will drag my game down and probably ensure an early grave for me.

[Folwren]

Great, Nerwen!

I'm sorry to hear that, Kitanna. If you find that you suddenly have time and we haven't started yet, feel free to return.

I'm about to leave for an overnigh trip. I'll be back tomorrow afternoon probably.

[Ozban]

I would join, hope there's room for that yet.

[Folwren]

There is. Welcome, Ozban.

[A Little Green]

Ouch, this looks really good! Unfortunately I'm really busy at the moment and don't think it would be fair to myself or to my fellow players to join when my participation would either be very minimal or come on the expense of desperately needed sleep..

[elronds_daughter]

Just to let everyone know, I will be away starting the 24th (two days from now) until the 6th of March. It's going to be a very busy trip, and there's no guarantee of internet access. So...if this game gets off the ground before March 6, then you'd best count me out, I'm afraid.

[Folwren]

Elrond's daughter, I think that this game will be willing to wait for you to return.

Greenie, if you get un-busy and look back here and find that we still have stared, perhaps you can join us then.

This weekend, I will have time to sit down and think about everything that's been said concerning changing the rules and the roles and stuff and maybe finally change somethings. But we're sitll short a few players, so we probably won't be able to start then.

My spring break starts March 19. It would be amazing if we could start this game then, too. We're still short a few players, though.

-- Folwren

[Bom Tombadillo]

Hmm. Would you object to a newbie (both to the site and to the game) joining? Hopefully I'll be settled somewhat on the RPGing front by the time this starts (I'm trying to think up a post now, I promise!). If you don't mind, then

++Bom Tombadillo

[Pitchwife]

Yay! Juicy fresh newbie meat! - Er, I mean, welcome to the lycanthropic side of the Downs, Tombadillo. (I may have to duel you for that name sooner or later, if you ever take part in The Sound of Middle-earth... but that's a different matter.)

[Folwren]

Certainly, Bom, I'd love to have you.

I'm not sure if you need to read the rules of WW playing or not, but incase you do, there's a sticky thread (or whatever it's called) at the top of the Mirth forum. It would probably be helpful to read.

-- Folwren

[Folwren]

I thought of an idea for another gifted. Thought I'd put it here and see what you all thought.

A type of seer...but instead of finding out if anyone is a Forge member, he will only find out who the King's Dwarf is. So, at night, he'll send me a name by PM and I'll send back a PM saying either, "No, that person is not the K.D" or I'll send back something that says, "Yes, that person is the K.D."

In the story, I was thinking that that character could play in by one day stumbling upon the K.D. doing something that was obviously trying to foil the Forge, like leaving a message for the Night Watchman or something. The dwarf who stumbles upon him realizes he is not one of the Forge members and figures something is odd. Obviously, in the game, we know who all the characters are...

The K.D., I think, will know when he is identified by this character. Should I also tell the K.D. who this person is? Or should that be something that he has to figure out?

What sort of advantage will this give the innocents?

Do I need to think of another gifted?

-- Folwren

[Bom Tombadillo]

I've read bits of a good few archived WW games and at one time read all the way through the original, but I suppose it can't hurt to read through the full rules and will probably prevent some blunders.

Also, the KD-identifier seems . . . interesting. I'll let my elders and betters weigh in on balance.

[Mänwe]

I wouldn't kick and scream if it were included but I quite liked the original set up of limited gifted roles.

And hello to Bom!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

I'll let my elders and betters weigh in on balance.

Buttering up, eh? Wolf! Lynch him!

Originally Posted by Mänwe

I wouldn't kick and scream if it were included but I quite liked the original set up of limited gifted roles.

Same here, more or less. The KD-seer is an interesting idea, but having a very limited cast of gifteds for a change is quite interesting, too.
What you could do, however, is make the Sweetheart the KD-seer; that would make sense storywise, wouldn't it? Maybe you could even make it so that she only becomes the Sweetheart when/if she discovers the KD?
Anyway, if you decide to have the KD-seer as an extra role, I don't think the KD should know his/her identity. Don't take away the fun of hinting to an unknown ally (including fake-hinting and looking for hints)!

Originally Posted by Foley

Obviously, in the game, we know who all the characters are...

Er, sorry? I don't get this. Or do you mean character as opposed to role here?

By the way, just noticed that we have thirteen players now (if Glirdan can make it). Looks like this game might even start sometime in the foreseeable future...

[Bom Tombadillo]

Accusing an OBVIOUS innocent, eh? Lynch 'im!

*looks at Folwren*

On second thought . . . How many games have you seen where the moderator was a wolf? None, right? Wouldn't that make it the perfect cover? Lynch xer!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

Accusing an OBVIOUS innocent, eh? Lynch 'im!

*looks at Folwren*

On second thought . . . How many games have you seen where the moderator was a wolf? None, right? Wouldn't that make it the perfect cover? Lynch xer!

You mean just because you're named after a certain character renowned for silly poetry and being notoriously left out of adaptations, you OBVIOUSly can't be evil? That's meta, my dear.
On the other hand, you have a point about Foley. The problem with that is, if we lynch the Moddess, there's no game, so we shouldn't. Now suspect me for being wishy-washy!

[Folwren]

On second thought . . . How many games have you seen where the moderator was a wolf? None, right? Wouldn't that make it the perfect cover? Lynch xer!

Oi! Mind your manners, or you'll be booted, you will! No lyinching before the game starts, and don't even THINK of lynching me. Besides, you don't really think you could get rid of me that easily, do you?

Well, some players think at least one more gifted would be good. But maybe everyone would be happy if the game didn't end if the KD were killed at night, like I originall wrote it.

I like the Sweetheart being the KD-seer (that is, 'seer' looking for the KD), and not becoming the Sweetheart until after she's found him out.

Er, sorry? I don't get this. Or do you mean character as opposed to role here?

I meant, we all know that there is a King's Dwarf in the mix...never mind, it doesn't really matter.

[Bom Tombadillo]

That idea is interesting, but my opinion of it is based on whether or not roles are revealed on death (read: are they?) . . . If not, then we get all sorts of interesting sitchyations with whether or not for the Forges to kill the KD due to the double-death of the KD and the Sweetheart possibly revealing the KD. This all presumes that you decide not to end the game on a night-kill of the KD, of course . . . Pretty please?

It'd certainly make sense story-wise for the role not to be revealed, since nothing (nothing yet revealed, anyway) physically differentiates a Forger, a KD, or a Sweetheart from your average dwarf, unlike in a game of WW with actual werewolves/ducks/wotsits.

EDIT: Scratch that - I just looked back at the story and saw the part about "the society's brand."

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Well, some players think at least one more gifted would be good. But maybe everyone would be happy if the game didn't end if the KD were killed at night, like I originall wrote it.

I like the Sweetheart being the KD-seer (that is, 'seer' looking for the KD), and not becoming the Sweetheart until after she's found him out.

I would be happy - and I do like the Sweetheart setup you originally planned too.

[Pitchwife]

Foley, do you think this game is likely to start some time during the next two or three weeks? Because if it does, I'll have to drop out, much as I'd regret it. I've joined my first ever Barrow Downs RPG, which is going to start sooner than I'd expected, and I'd like to dedicate as much time to this as I can, so I can't really handle a WW game at the same time.
Once Mnemo's RPG (which is designed to take two weeks real time) is over, I'd be available again and would love to play, but if you get enough players to start in the meantime, just go ahead and don't wait for me.

[Folwren]

I was thinking of starting March 19, as the following week is my spring break. However, we're still short on players, so that's not necessarily happening. I'll keep you posted. I figure once it's time, I'll send e-mails to everybody who I have on my list to make sure they're playing and to allert them to any changes I have made to the rules and roles.

I saw Mnemo's game, and I'm excited that it's bringing in so many new players to the RPG forums.

-- Foley

[elronds_daughter]

Well, I'm back.

And ready for another rousing game! The 19th looks good as a start date for me.

[satansaloser2005]

If you need more players, I may be able to post now and again.

[Folwren]

Awesome. Welcome, you two. I'll put you on the list.

-- Folwren

[Glirdan]

Gah!! Sorry I haven't been around guys, my net has been faulty as of late and I haven't had access. And I hate to say it, but I don't think I'll be able to play for awhile. Got two shows I'm in and work thus leaving me with barely anytime to do much of anything lol. Wish you all the best of luck though and I'll try and keep up with the game