Character(s) that you dont like...

[Faramir]

What character(s) do you not like in LOTR (from books,because its to easy for an actor to ruin a character.....orli) well anyway what characters dont you like from the books?

My picks would have to be:

1)Denethor-He doesnt do anything to help his city in the wars because in my opinion hes just a foolish old man that loves one son WAY better than the other.

2)Barliman Butterbur-Another foolish old man that could have helped Frodo by giving his letter from Gandalf sooner, but did other wise and the wraiths came sooner.

[Boromir88]

1)Denethor-He doesnt do anything to help his city in the wars because in my opinion hes just a foolish old man that loves one son WAY better than the other.

Denethor is surely an awful father and an awful man, and I can understand if one doesn't like him (especially once you start comparing him to Theoden). However, it would be wrong to say that Denethor "did nothing" to help his city in the wars. He did a bunch, and if it wasn't for him I don't know if Gondor would have won.

He used the palantir (eventhough if it caused his downfall), to learn a lot about Sauron, and he used it to his advantage, figuring out where Sauron was going to attack, and how he was going to defend it. When Gandalf finally gets to Minas Tirith, Denethor has Gondor's armies entering the city, he has lit the beacons, he has sent out Hirgon, he has been building walls, and the defense of the city is pretty much set. Denethor does the planning of the defenses, the difference between him and Theoden is Theoden is an excellent leader of men. Denethor sits back in his hall and spends his mens life (even his own sons), where Theoden goes out there to the front lines and leads his men.

It is certainly understandable to not like Denethor, however to say "he did nothing" is just incorrect.

As for what character I don't like, hmmm toughy. I'm even intrigued by some of the baddies (like Saruman and Grima). I'd have to say I don't like Harry Goatleaf. When we first meet him a like him, but he turns out to be nothing but a traitor that follows Sharkey and Ferney.

[Formendacil]

Gollum.

I am very Sam-like in this matter. I can tolerate him, and I appreciate the part he has to play, but for me he is a nasty, slimy, treacherous creature.

Fascinating from a reader's point of view, but I never could sympathize fully with Frodo for taking him in.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What a shame to criticise Butterbur so. There was no malevolent desire to endanger Frodo; he was merely an extremely busy and worried man who did not realise the gravity of the situation.

I suppose someone will nominate Treebeard sooner or later....

[Boromir88]

I suppose someone will nominate Treebeard sooner or later

and Bombadil

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Argh! That would be decidedly uncool.

It always baffles me why Tolkien fans dislike those two.

[Celebuial]

How can Tolkien fans dislike Treebeard snd Bombadil??? Its a mystery to me!

I would have to say that I don't like Ioreth very much. As far as I was concerned she just kept interupting what was going on. I found it highly annoying!

[Eruanna]

I have to put my hand up and admit that I have very mixed feelings about Tom Bombadil, I'm afraid. I can't say that I dislike him (and Goldberry). I know that he's an enigma, one of a kind and all that, but he just doesn't seem to fit!
I think it's the tone of the story at that point. The Bombadil interlude is slightly childish, bearing in mind how serious and complex the story becomes later on and it tends to annoy me a little.

[mark12_30]

Shagrat, Radbug, Grishnakh, Witch-King... Ugluk, MOS, Wormtongue... Bill Ferny. Saruman. And, oh, yeah... that other bad guy-- er, wossname? Sauron?

[Lyta_Underhill]

Gollum.

I am very Sam-like in this matter. I can tolerate him, and I appreciate the part he has to play, but for me he is a nasty, slimy, treacherous creature.

Fascinating from a reader's point of view, but I never could sympathize fully with Frodo for taking him in.

Certainly, to like Gollum on his own merits is counter-intuitive, but I rather think it is a stroke of genius that Frodo took him in as he did, even if one discounts his instinct towards pity for the poor creature. Gollum is the one being at hand who has been to Mordor and knows ways into it. I know that Frodo doesn't realize just how much he knows about the Black Land, but he does know that this knowledge is far greater than his own. I think, however, that if Frodo had not sympathized with and pitied Gollum, his faith would have been gone much earlier, and he might not have seen humanity as worth saving. The Ring would have him then. In a way, Gollum personifies the corruption wrought by Sauron on the whole of Middle Earth, and at the same time personifies the glimmer of hope for its redemption. Smeagol/Gollum is the balance of good and evil of the greater world, and Frodo has that in his hands, literally. If he hadn't sympathized with Gollum, Frodo would certainly have been lost. (This concept is difficult to separate from a selfish reading of Frodo's motives, i.e., he sees his own reflection in Gollum and so treats him civilly.) I don't think this is the case, and his sympathy goes deeper than a simple personal reflection. Sam cannot see this necessity until he has borne the Ring as well, and somehow I think it is impossible to purify oneself without this trait.

But enough of my well-known penchant for Frodophilicity...

Who don't I like? Well, like others here, Denethor pops to mind, but mainly because of his intellectual vanity, i.e., his idea that he knows better than Gandalf, better than Faramir, is stronger than the Eye in the Palantir, etc. etc. His lore is deep, and he is exposed to and absorbs the same knowledge as Faramir does, and yet his spirit is corrupted so that he cannot do good with that knowledge in the end. He puts his own interests above those of his realm, not a good trait in a Steward. (This is not to say he does nothing--he defends Minas Tirith admirably, but his unbalanced mental state leaves the command of his forces in doubt at a crucial point and Gandalf is forced to take over the conducting of the city's defense. Also, there are hints of his nature upon the recollections of Aragorn as Thorongil long ago in the service of Ecthelion II in Minas Tirith--Denethor resented him back then, too! That man held a lot of grudges, didn't he?)

Others I dislike are not hard to guess: Ted Sandyman, petty evil incarnate; I most certainly didn't like the silly songs Bombadil sang most of the time, and could see myself turning as red as Frodo when he looked upon Goldberry if I tried to sing them...Tom Bombadil--the spirit of the Silly Old Forest! I don't mind his silliness or Bombadil himself, really--I just don't care for his tunes! Aragorn used to irritate me long ago, with his "Lo!'s and thou's" and high flown speech, as if he were a charging battery that got more high and mighty the closer he came to Minas Tirith...strangely enough, I don't mind that so much now! Legolas dancing on top of the snow near the Redhorn Pass made me want to slap him sometimes, although the description of his 'shoes' always makes me think of a Keebler Elf, rather than Orlando Bloom!

Well, that's all for now! Happy character-beefing!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Makar]

To me, Gollum is one of the most likable characters, even though the things he does should drive the reader away from him. He provides most of the comic relief for me (almost all of the humor that isn't situationally funny seems to me to come from what Gollum says) and he is funny in a way that should be annoying, but isn't. Plus, Gollum tugs up and down on the reader's heart strings -one minute you're laughing at him, the next you feel sorry for him, and then you hate him. As to whom I don't like:
Bill Ferny seems to be a character with no redeeming qualities.
Wormtongue - some people feel sorry for him in the end, not me.

[mark12_30]

Lindir. "Mortals have not been our study; we have other business."
Well, meh to you, too. .....Odious stuck-up prig.

[Bêthberry]

Well, I guess we can respond to characters based on many things. Some of us dislike the bad guys because they are bad, I guess. Makes sense I guess.

Me, though, I tend to dislike characters not based on their role or their moral orientation, but upon how well they are crafted, from my point of view. From this perspective, I find Saruman unsatisfying. Hmm. maybe I can find a different word.

I would have liked to see how his studies drove him to the dark side, and how he became so eager for his ideas that he succumbed to bullying and manipulating the freedom of others. Even more "telling" if not showing would have satisfied my curiosity in just how Tolkien sees the pursuit of knowledge leading to evil.

I don't revere the elves either because I think they are too wrapped up in nostalgia for the old days. Alas my view of art is not towards stasis. In this regard I probably think better of Elrond than I do of Galadariel or Legolas.

This is my sense, anyway, whether it is worth it or not.

[Makar]

I don't revere them either. When all I had read was LotR and the Hobbit, I thought, "Wow! These Elves are something else." Then I read the Sil, and I was like ***! They kill just as many of eachother for stupid reasons as Men do. And when the first Men come into the world they get dragged into a conflict between the Noldor and Morgoth. And the Elves are the "good guys". But man, they are bloodthirsty mofos, it seems. Nothing like the Elves as portrayed in LotR.

[Lolidir]

Originally Posted by Makar

Bill Ferny seems to be a character with no redeeming qualities.
Wormtongue - some people feel sorry for him in the end, not me.

i would have to agree in this one. Bill Ferney is just an example of how there are those out there that are bad and criminal like. this day and age he would have been arrested for animal cruelty. and how he tells the black riders of all that has happened in Bree. he is just one guy that i despise.

Wormtongue is another one that almost brings the destruction of Rohan. the way tells Saruman what will happen and where to go and the way he helps poison Theoden's mind.

Gollum on the other hand i like and dislike at the same time. for a little part of the story you see the inside, Smeagol if you will, but for the rest you see Gollum. if the story had been about Smeagol he would have been a good character. Gollum however has been possessed and changed by the ring. it wasnt entirely his fault for the way he was. in my opinion the othere two had some control as to what they were doing.

besides the hate for the bad guys simply for the fact that they are trying to take over the world, i cant think of anyone that i totally dislike.

[Lyta_Underhill]

I would have liked to see how his studies drove him to the dark side, and how he became so eager for his ideas that he succumbed to bullying and manipulating the freedom of others. Even more "telling" if not showing would have satisfied my curiosity in just how Tolkien sees the pursuit of knowledge leading to evil.

An excellent observation, Bethberry, and one that about sums up my view of Saruman as well. I always wanted to know why he fell so completely, and how his immersion in the ways of the Enemy caught him, beyond his ensnarement by Sauron in the palantir of Orthanc. Perhaps this is one aspect of the "fallen" character that is merely told in vague hints, as the mind of evil is itself shadowed and unclear. I always got the idea that Tolkien did not explore the causes of Saruman's fall even as much as he outlined the trickery that Sauron used against Denethor. Even in the UT, Saruman is portrayed as pompous and petty at the same time, worshipping things and ideas, and forgetting people, or using them as pawns. It makes one think that the Vala that sent him (was it Aulë?) should have seen this weakness in him before sending him from the West. But then again, perhaps he did not find the thing he coveted until he reached Middle Earth. More intellectual vanity here? A sinister version of Pippin's voiced desire to know all the names of all the stars and the sundering seas, etc. etc. ?

Saruman's behavior in the War of the Ring, however, is consistent and, although unfortunate, believable. Perhaps he falls under the heading of "how'd he get so evil, anyways?" as this simple hobbit scratches her head and strains her 25 watt brain, stares at the shrivelled evil guy...scratches head...remembers something about hoarding Isildur's bones in Orthanc...gee, what an evil guy! How'd he get so evil? That's what we'd like to know!

OK, end of evil guy rant...it was a little muddled, as my head is stuffed to capacity with some fellow shopper's cold from a week ago...oh, joy...

Cheers!
Lyta

P.S. It is indeed interesting that the more knowledge Saruman (and Denethor too) acquire, the more they crave. A sort of addiction, perhaps, merely tasted in a glimpse by Pippin in the palantir, perhaps a drive to "know the mind of Eru" and thus replace him? A real Morgoth-ian tendency if ever there was one!

[Celebuial]

P.S. It is indeed interesting that the more knowledge Saruman (and Denethor too) acquire, the more they crave. A sort of addiction, perhaps, merely tasted in a glimpse by Pippin in the palantir, perhaps a drive to "know the mind of Eru" and thus replace him? A real Morgoth-ian tendency if ever there was one!

Nice point, Lyta Underhill! I had noticed the addiction for knowledge with Saruman and Denethor but I hadn't gone as far as too correlate it with Morgoth and the need to know the mind of Eru. I thank you for pointing this out! Very interesting indeed!

[Lalwendë]

I wouldn't say there are any characters I dislike as they are all essential to the mechanics of the stories, and all seem to be well crafted to me. But if we are thinking not in terms of how they are written but instead in terms of whether we would like them if we were in Middle Earth ourselves, then I find Bill Ferny treacherous. And if I was a ordinary person living in Rohan I should hate Grima for his corruption of my King. As to whether I personally dislike any for personal moral reasons, then I do not, as I think despite what I think about these characters, their presence is necessary to make the story what it is.

I'd like to know more about Saruman too, but I find the way he is portrayed quite interesting. He is, after all, Saruman of many colours and has a shifting, mercurial nature. He is something of a mystery and the lack of definite information about his background and motivation only adds to his enigma.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Saeros bugs me. I might understand a bit of pride from someone like Turin (because he was beyond awesome) but all that pride from Saeros...bleh...nothing irks me more than little nothings like Saeros acting all high and mighty. At least he got his reward for his behavior.

I don't like Eol either. He was a complete racist, with his silly hatred of the Noldor. Just like Saeros, his dumb behavior got him killed.

And, of course, I can't stand Bill Ferny. I wish I could nail him with an apple like Sam did.

[Boromir88]

I'd have to say it was actually Saruman's lust for power that changed his career path, or Saruman falling under many of the seven deadly sins....

He was proud (to the point of being arrogant and pompous)...
He lusted for power
He envied Sauron and Eru
He was definitely and angry man as well as Greedy.

I think a key turning point in Saruman's career change comes from something we see in the Timeline from the appendices:

2939: Saruman discovers that Sauron's servabts are searching the Anduin near Gladden fields, and that Sauron therefor has learned of Isildur's death. He is alarmed but says nothing to the Council.

He's not evil at this time, as far as we can tell, I mean evil as in how he turns up in LOTR. However, you have to question why he didn't warn the Council about Sauron searching for the Ring? Perhaps he had his own plans to try to stop Sauron, but wanted to handle matters on his own?

What's important to remember about Saruman is besides his Uruk-hai and dunlanders he is alone. He is evil, but not Sauron evil, he actually has plans to undermine Sauron. He's not good, well because he has the same plans as Sauron, world domination. Saruman and Sauron are both after the same thing, so therefor they can't be on the same side.

It reminds me of the Hitler-Stalin, Germany/Russia pact. Hitler made a pact with Stalin, which stated they wouldn't attack eachother. It's not like an alliance where they help eachother out with money and forces, it's just an agreement to "hey we both want the same thing, so let's just not attack eachother (for right now). Let me deal with the west, leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone." Hitler was actually using Stalin to make sure Germany didn't have to fight a two-front war. Too bad Hitler foolishly thought he defeated the West when he turned to attack Stalin.

Reminiscent of the Sauron-Saruman relationship. Tolkien never really wanted them to seem like an alliance, more of just agreeing "since we're both after the same thing, let's just leave eachother alone." "Hey I got Gondor to deal with, you got Rohan, let's just not attack eachother since we're both after the same thing." Sauron was only using Saruman so he didn't have to have two extra people to worry about (Saruman himself, and Rohan) too bad Saruman couldn't get the job done. And Saruman foolishly believed he was in control of the situation, and devised his own schemes to get the Ring.

[alatar]

Bill Ferny was a petty criminal, and I'm not big on him, but he gets his comeuppance via an apple, and so he's not big on the list.

Never liked Ted Sandyman as he seemed to be a 'spoiler' - someone only interested in causing others some grief for personal gain/fulfillment, and generally life's hard enough without others piling on. That and he was dirty yet did not wash.

Gollum was addicted, and so he's a bit easy to pity - there go I but for the act of Frodo? He's evil to be sure, yet at least he's out for himself and so would even turn on Sauron. Gollum was caught by something much bigger and badder than his little wickedness could handle, and still he strove (at times) to turn away from it (like when he caresses Frodo as Frodo is sleeping). He wanted a cure, but could only find it at the bottom of the Crack of Doom as he no longer had the strength to find it alone. And by helping Frodo at the end, technically he's a hero.

Wormtongue is especially loathsome. Unlike Gollum, Worm knows full well what he's doing, which is betraying people who are at least civil to him. Instead of trying to win Eowyn's favor by doing something, he seeks to limit the field and take her by force. Jerk. And though he wants to possess her, he does not love her. If he did, he would let her go...

Saruman isn't as bad. Think that he had a bug when he was first released into ME, and it grew as the Valinor taint wore off - somebody knew something, as Cirdan and Galadriel were never his biggest fans. I think that like Aule he wanted to create creatures of his own, but as he wasn't in Paradise anymore but in the real world, this desire quickly turned to thoughts of domination, control and power. Initially he may have thought of contesting Sauron, but as the idiots who surrounded him weren't very helpful, he realized that he would need to control and order them for their own good as he was the only one with a clue. Unlike Gandalf, he could not allow people to freely choose to serve with him in the manner that they thought best. Think that he was reading some Machiavelli (The Prince) - it is better to be feared than to be loved. And I would add 'easier too.'

Note that the more you try to control, the more that you need to control.

Later, Saruman must have thought that he could accomplish even more if he had Sauron's hordes, and as these Maia had the same first initial, changing logos on uniforms wouldn't be an issue. When his perfect plans didn't pan out, he then became a spoiler too.

Anyway, he too got his just reward.

Moving south, at least Denethor had his people and sons in mind until at the very end, and so I pity him. He wasn't that bad; lost a wife, was losing a kingdom, lost a son, freaked out and sent his other child to a certain death, a Maia was bent on his destruction/downfall (you pick to which one I refer), found out that there's a land of midget people - if that doesn't crack you up, what does it take?

And agree regarding Bombadil's singing and Treebeard's speech. Next page please!

[Thinlómien]

I think Tolkien has made nearly all his not-so-nice major characters and the reasons why they are like they are quite understandable. I really can't say I don't like some characters - maybe except Ted Sandyman. Those who are evil are a different chapter.

[Elonve]

I really dislike Wormtounge! He was a slimy dispicabel character.
I really started to hate Denethor. I hate that he said stuff like "I wish you were dead instead of Boromir" What kind of Father says that to his son??

Anywhooooooo!

Cheers

Elly
________
How to use a whip vaporizer

[Elianna]

I second Lindir and Ted Sandyman wholeheartedly.

I can't see why you people dislike my Wormie...*dodges tomato*

I also can't see why Feanor hasn't cropped up on this thread yet. Single-handedly (wait, that's more like Maedhros or Beren isn't it? sorry...), leads most of his people in rebelion against the Valar, starts a war consisting of five blood-soaked battles, ruins the lives of his sons and countless others...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elianna

I also can't see why Feanor hasn't cropped up on this thread yet. Single-handedly (wait, that's more like Maedhros or Beren isn't it? sorry...), leads most of his people in rebelion against the Valar, starts a war consisting of five blood-soaked battles, ruins the lives of his sons and countless others...

Did he lead them astray, or did they follow him freely? Except for his children, the others could have said "nay." Reading about the elves in the Sil, you see that they aren't as high and pure as they tend to appear in the Third Age anyway. And was Feanor not doing Iluvatar's bidding?

The reason I didn't add Feanor to my list was that (1) he was in Silmarillion country, (2) ya gotta respect someone who contests the Valar, (3) he also was a lot wiser than Manwe et al - including other Eldar - in regards to Melkor, (4) he did made some cool stuff, (5) he was neglected as a child.

In the same vein I can't stand those elven princes who gave Luthien a hard time (Celegorm and Curufin?). Put your slippers on and take a hike!

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by alatar

Did he lead them astray, or did they follow him freely?

Obi-wan Kenobi: "Who's the more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?" I think it's the first fool, because he makes up the crazy idea, believes it, and then looks for followers, whereas the other fool only believes the idea.

Originally Posted by alatar

The reason I didn't add Feanor to my list was that (1) he was in Silmarillion country,

Yeah, Faramir did just say LotR, sorry.

(2) ya gotta respect someone who contests the Valar,

uhhhh....no? Why would I do that when they're doing the best they can?

(3) he also was a lot wiser than Manwe et al - including other Eldar - in regards to Melkor,

I'll give you that one.

(4) he did made some cool stuff,

Like the Silmarils with that huge war fought over them? Like the palantiri, which were a leading cause for the brekaing up of Arnor, and Saruman's and Denethor's falls?

(5) he was neglected as a child.

To my recollection, his father thought he hung the Moon, and his mom only left after he was grown.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elianna

Obi-wan Kenobi: "Who's the more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?" I think it's the first fool, because he makes up the crazy idea, believes it, and then looks for followers, whereas the other fool only believes the idea.

Obi who? And I assume that the other elves were 'just following orders...' It must be that I'm a big believer in personal responsibility.

Yeah, Faramir did just say LotR, sorry.

Actually, I didn't see that either, so that one's a tie.

uhhhh....no? Why would I do that when they're doing the best they can?

I just have a thing for the underdog. Like when Fingolfin went after Morgoth...that was surely something. And I don't have a thing for 'best that they can.' Sounds like bureaucracy/mediocrity to me.

Like the Silmarils with that huge war fought over them? Like the palantiri, which were a leading cause for the brekaing up of Arnor, and Saruman's and Denethor's falls?

I assume then that we need to fault Iluvatar as he created Melkor? He also created Arda, so if I were Denethor I know who I'd have my lawyers chasing. Think what havoc was caused by Melian's child and subsequent descendents.

To my recollection, his father thought he hung the Moon, and his mom only left after he was grown.

Sorry, but that was meant jokingly. On the other hand, as you stated regarding his parents, Feanor got too much attention, and that (1) adversely affects children (various pampered celebrities come to mind), (2) obviously made Feanor go out and create all of that evil stuff to compensate for too much attention, (3) also made him lead all of those elves into genocide/kinslaying as I assume the other elves had bad parents and (4) eventually caused the immolation of Denethor. Bad parents, bad parents!

All tongue in cheek, of course. Cheers.

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Gollum.

I am very Sam-like in this matter. I can tolerate him, and I appreciate the part he has to play, but for me he is a nasty, slimy, treacherous creature.

Fascinating from a reader's point of view, but I never could sympathize fully with Frodo for taking him in.

Uhm.... I don't know why, but I really really really love Gollum... esp the 2 personalities' debate... I mean, in my world, I do not usually encounter organismswho speaks in that Gollum fashion....

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Gollum.

I am very Sam-like in this matter. I can tolerate him, and I appreciate the part he has to play, but for me he is a nasty, slimy, treacherous creature.

Fascinating from a reader's point of view, but I never could sympathize fully with Frodo for taking him in.

\


Uhm, I hate to contradict Formendacil, esp that I love the signature.... but I think Gollum is a masterpiece villain of old JRRT... I mean, one does not usually encounter organisms talking in a Gollum-like style... and that style has always, uhm, what's the term, magulo pero cute...

And the character(s) I don't like? Well, it's kinda tough...

Tom Bombadil, maybe, that stupid guy who's a cross between a hobbit and a man, wearing those stupid outfits... Well, the thing that annoys me 'bout him is his manner of dressing, not his language or anything....


Pasensya na, ako'y nauubusan na ng Ingles.... mag-aaral muna ako nito!!!!!!!!!