The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-05-2013, 02:21 PM   #1
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,072
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
No Married Persons

It just struck me that not one of the Fellowship has a spouse. I'm purposely not addressing gender because I'm reading Justin Cronin's "The Passage" and he has the same thing: not a single spouse in his Fellowship either.

Is it because it simplifies things not to have such a connection? Or was there something within Tolkien's world that made it so? In other words, author choice for sake of ease, or author choice for plot function?
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 02:37 PM   #2
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,606
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Certainly it's partially easier for the heroes not to have a spouse. It can also represent different things. It is very strongly emphasised, I think either in the Appendices or in the Quest for Erebor, that one of the reasons why Gandalf thought Bilbo might be the right person to send on adventure was because he wasn't married. Obviously Gandalf wouldn't have sent somebody away from their family, that much is clear. The companions needed to be "free of obligations" elsewhere, and not just to be chosen by Gandalf, but obviously also to be chosen by "higher powers at work" - that much is beyond doubt (I think it is very evident from Frodo's story, the description of him aging towards 50 at the beginning of FotR). Slightly different angle comes with Aragorn, who decided to "put the matter aside" until he had finished his journeys and "re-discovered himself".

I am not sure whether there might be, with Tolkien being a Catholic, some sort of "pilgrim value of celibacy" there, too - as in, the value of one feeling his vocation to do something else, be it spiritual life in a retreat in a monastery or, like in this case, a long journey with uncertain goal. I think that's what Aragorn felt, at least: vocation, at least until his task was done. With Frodo and Bilbo, it was probably more unintentional, though there is this remark in the sense of "maybe some foreboding that stopped them from marrying" somewhere. With Sam... I would say, personally, that his place was still to stand by Frodo and help him, too, so first the task needed to be done, AND on top of that, I would personally say he needed to "grow up" a bit. With Pippin and Merry, they DEFINITELY needed to "grow up" a bit first (but they were also very young, so for them it was only a teenagers' adventure, so to say). Gimli... maybe still slightly too young to be married, besides, we know how problematic it is with the Dwarves? And Legolas... well, he's an Elf, that's also a bit different issue. And of course, no need to ask about Gandalf at this moment. Who did I forget? Ah, Boromir. But he seems to me to be a guy "married to his sword" in a way. Besides, I am sure if he had been married, then Faramir would have been sent instead of him for sure.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 03:47 PM   #3
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,058
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
I think Legate covered it pretty well, but I would support his statement about Boromir with this:

Quote:
Boromir...beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife, and delighting chiefly in arms...
ROTK Appendix A

Seeing the Fellowship through Elrond's eyes, that all were "called", I would also say that the collective unmarried status of the Fellowship would have been one of the criteria for their inclusion in it, for the reasons Legate stated.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 04:09 PM   #4
Alfirin
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
Alfirin has been trapped in the Barrow!
There is also the simple matter of practicallity. Rember, the odds on the quest suceeding were pretty slim. the odds of all of the Fellowship (or indeed ANY of the Fellowship) making it back alive slimmer still. Gandalf/Elrond needed obligation free individuals, since in all probability, they all WOULD perish on the journey (except maybe Gandalf) I'd say the strongest example of this would probably be Samwise, who after all, is the only one who is sort of engaged(to Rosie) at the time he goes away (okay tecnically Aragorn is engaged too, but the nature of his engagement means he sort of HAS to choose the quest (if the ring is not destroyed, he can't really become king (okay, technically he could, but I doubt Elrond would accept being king of Gondor/Arnor in a world where Sauron technically ruled both of them, (along with everything else) as really living up to the specifications he laid down) and if he can't become king, he can't wed Arwen). He is really the only one who sort of has to make the choice. He COULD have married Rosie before he left (maybe, I'm not sure if pre-jouney Sam had enough social status to be considered an acceptable beau) But then a lot of akward things come up later. Think about when Sam decides to keep going with Frodo to Mordor, knowing that, even if her suceed he will presumably die. It's hard enough for him the way it stands. Can you imagine how the scene would have gone if Sam was having to do that knowing he was dooming his newly blushing bride to early widowhood (or, god help me, a newly pregnant rose to widowhood and raising thier son alone.) That might have been enough to make him turn back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
Besides, I am sure if he had been married, then Faramir would have been sent instead of him for sure.
Funny you should mention that. I have a nagging feeling that had circumstances been a little different. That could have happened. Say, if the preparations in Rinvendell for the Journey were guranteed to take so long as to allow Boromir to travel BACK to Minas Tirith report to Denethor, get his orders and still be sure of making it back to Rivendell before the Fellowship left (he took a long time findig it the first time, but presumably he would know the way this time, thereby cutting. down the journey). Under those circumstances, Denethor might have decided that, as the Steward-Heir Boromir was simply too valuable to risk on such a fool's errand. He migh very well have decided this was best left to "expendable" Faramir (Faramir doesn't know the way, but Boromir could draw him a map now, or even accompany him back to Rivendell as a guide then return to Minas Tirith himself) or al least demand Boromir forget this stupid "party of nine" plan and Demand the Fellowship take a few companies of Gondorian soldiers with them for protection (If indeed he didn't go for the obvios path and simply order Boromir to take most of the Gondorian Army back with him to Rivendell and take the ring by force, "For the good of the West".
Alfirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2013, 07:47 PM   #5
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,528
Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Well, Legolas was always a bit light in the elvish slippers, if you know what I mean. Put the Faery in Middle-earth, he did. Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge. Say no more, say no more!
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2013, 03:08 AM   #6
Aganzir
Woman of Secret Shadow
 
Aganzir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
Posts: 4,607
Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Aganzir is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
one of the reasons why Gandalf thought Bilbo might be the right person to send on adventure was because he wasn't married.
Gandalf also thought Bilbo was a bit queer.

I'd still like to emphasize more the fact that married people wouldn't have been as willing to go. Not just that they wouldn't have been sent, but that they wouldn't have taken up the task if there had been someone important waiting for them back home. I'm not sure how common orphaned or otherwise lonely protagonists were in fantasy-esque books before Tolkien's time, but in contemporary fantasy they definitely seem to flourish.

Also, I agree with Legate that Tolkien's Catholicism might have played a part in it. The first thought I had when seeing this thread was that Catholic priests don't marry so that they could dedicate themselves entirely to their vocation, and it seems plausible that Tolkien had something of the sort in mind, even if not consciously. The Fellowship had to dedicate themselves first and foremost to saving Middle-earth.

Furthermore, Tolkien showed the doubt the Fellowship went through - why didn't I turn back? why did I leave Lórien? why did I come in the first place? - and plot-wise, it would've been difficult to have somebody constantly pining for their spouse. Think how different Elrond's words would have been to anybody who was in love:
Quote:
You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy it will be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.
__________________
He bit me, and I was not gentle.
Aganzir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2013, 06:31 AM   #7
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,347
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
With the exception of Frodo and Gandalf, who to my mind are rather clear celibates in the Catholic sense of being consecrated to something "higher," I wonder if the single nature of the rest of the Fellowship could be related to the distortion of proper nature that comes of a Sauron-run Middle-earth.

Obviously, this is most apparent with Aragorn: he cannot get married until Sauron is defeated and his thrones restored: Sauron is a clear and direct impediment to the good that would come of his marriage (which is directly manifested in the continuation of Lúthien's line among Men).

But it's not just Aragorn: from the (brief) comments that Sam gives to Frodo about his feelings for Rosie, she was expecting him to propose--only he ran off with Frodo right about when she expected. In other words, the evil of Sauron intervenes and the effect is Sam feeling divided when he ought to feel whole (Frodo's words, more or less).

Boromir too, insofar as Legate is probably right that he is married to his sword, is something of a typical Gondorian in this respect: remember the description of Minas Tirith when Pippin and Gandalf arrive: a mostly empty city, proud but with too few children. Note also that, as with Aragorn and Sam, when Sauron is removed, Gondor's fortunes change and there is new life--and more children (and thus more marriage) in Minas Tirith thereafter.

Gimli and Legolas, I think, can each be seen as typical of their races, similar to Boromir being representative of the problem affecting all Gondor: the Dwarves multiply but slowly--a process impeded by constantly fighting goblins and finding new homes--and the Elves are fading. It is notable that they do NOT marry after the War of the Ring, because for the Elves and Dwarves victory is much more bittersweet than for Men and Hobbits: the enemy is defeated, but the Age of Man is begun. They will be happy for a time, but they will not be fruitful in Middle-earth.

And that leaves Merry and Pippin, who are, truly, a bit young at the time of the War of the Ring, especially Pippin, but as far as that goes they could be said to stand in the place of the future generations who are affected by the outcome of the War of the Ring. Unlike Sam and Aragorn, they would not be married in 1419 one way or the other, but their chances of getting married in the 1420s is utterly dependent on whether or Sauron's empire stands.

Mind you, none of this is to say that Tolkien used these characters solely for any representative function vis-a-vis their marital status. But he DOES use marriage as a direct correlation for a happy, fulfilled --normal-- life, and he uses it consistently with regards to the Fellowship (and others): Gandalf and Frodo do not get a happy, normal life after the War; Gandalf by nature and Frodo by result of what he went through. Aragorn, Sam, Arwen, Rosie, Merry, Pippin, (and Faramir and Eowyn) do. Gimli and Legolas do not--not because they are unhappy, but because their fates are much more bittersweet: they do not get the same kind of fulfillment (aka progeny) that the others do.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:28 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.