Elven immortality after the demise of ME - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

01-21-2004, 04:56 PM

I'll admit up front that I have yet to read either The Silmarillion or HoME, so I hope this topic isn't well-trodden territory.

My question concerns the immortality of the Eldar, and where it fits in with Eru's grand scheme. As I understand it, the Elves are a race inextricably linked to the physical world of ME, so that even when they pass west into the Undying Lands, they remain corporeal beings, their spirits contained in bodies that, however fair, are still imperfect, subject to hunger, pain, and the caprices of nature.

Compare this to the fate of Men, who by virtue of their mortality (the Gift of Eru), are doomed to live and suffer in the world for only a short while, after which their bodies die and their spirits are set free, presumably to flutter off into space to dwell with Eru and bask in his warm glowing warming glow.

So I was wondering: What happens after that? (Like way, way far into the future, at the end of history when Eru's plan for ME is complete?) When the world ultimately snuffs it, does that mean the spirits of the Eldar would at last be set free to fly up to The Happy Place to be with the Big Guy and the ghosts of all their long-dead friends? Or will they still remain trapped in those clunky old bodies, endlessly roaming the terrain of some rootless patch of Undying Land, floating free in the ether, isolated forever from everything and everybody they ever loved? Because if that's the case, I don't wanna be an Elf no more. (D'oh! I keep forgetting I'm an orc!)

You guys are all Tolkien scholars; any thoughts on the subject?

P.S. I just thought of another thing: If only Eldar are allowed access to the Undying Lands (with the one or three exceptions given in LOTR) does that mean there are no plants or animals there? Because, for an Elf, I would think an eternal existence without birds and trees to commune with and sing to and stuff would be something closer to torture than paradise, no?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:09 PM January 21, 2004: Message edited by: The Last Good Orc ]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:53 PM January 21, 2004: Message edited by: The Last Good Orc ]

Finwe · 01-21-2004, 06:37 PM

I don't think that Eru would be cruel enough to leave the Eldar floating about in space, in a figurative sense. He would probably allow them, and the Edain, to reunite in the Timeless Halls, where they would probably spend all of eternity singing, dancing, and generally making merry. The rather cruel alternative that you mentioned seems, well, too cruel for the Elves. But then again, I just might be biased. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

As for the creatures allowed in Aman, Elves were the only beings with fëar allowed in there. Men generally weren't (with, of course, a few famous exceptions). There were plenty of birds and beasts in Aman, probably because both the Ainur and the Eldar loved them so much. Could you imagine Oromë and Yavanna living without birds, beasts, and plants?

01-25-2004, 10:52 PM

The best answer here is to read the Sil. I know that stinks as far as an answer, but you asked a complex "theological" question. After the Sil, start reading the HoME series, there are some interesting items regarding the last days.

PS: Do not expect to find 100% consistency across JRRT's writings.

burrahobbit · 01-28-2004, 03:40 AM

Elves live exactly as long as the earth that they live on. When it is over they die. Maybe. Who knows?

01-21-2004, 04:56 PM	#1
The Last Good Orc Guest Posts: n/a	Elven immortality after the demise of ME I'll admit up front that I have yet to read either The Silmarillion or HoME, so I hope this topic isn't well-trodden territory. My question concerns the immortality of the Eldar, and where it fits in with Eru's grand scheme. As I understand it, the Elves are a race inextricably linked to the physical world of ME, so that even when they pass west into the Undying Lands, they remain corporeal beings, their spirits contained in bodies that, however fair, are still imperfect, subject to hunger, pain, and the caprices of nature. Compare this to the fate of Men, who by virtue of their mortality (the Gift of Eru), are doomed to live and suffer in the world for only a short while, after which their bodies die and their spirits are set free, presumably to flutter off into space to dwell with Eru and bask in his warm glowing warming glow. So I was wondering: What happens after that? (Like way, way far into the future, at the end of history when Eru's plan for ME is complete?) When the world ultimately snuffs it, does that mean the spirits of the Eldar would at last be set free to fly up to The Happy Place to be with the Big Guy and the ghosts of all their long-dead friends? Or will they still remain trapped in those clunky old bodies, endlessly roaming the terrain of some rootless patch of Undying Land, floating free in the ether, isolated forever from everything and everybody they ever loved? Because if that's the case, I don't wanna be an Elf no more. (D'oh! I keep forgetting I'm an orc!) You guys are all Tolkien scholars; any thoughts on the subject? P.S. I just thought of another thing: If only Eldar are allowed access to the Undying Lands (with the one or three exceptions given in LOTR) does that mean there are no plants or animals there? Because, for an Elf, I would think an eternal existence without birds and trees to commune with and sing to and stuff would be something closer to torture than paradise, no? <font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:09 PM January 21, 2004: Message edited by: The Last Good Orc ] <font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:53 PM January 21, 2004: Message edited by: The Last Good Orc ]

01-21-2004, 06:37 PM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I don't think that Eru would be cruel enough to leave the Eldar floating about in space, in a figurative sense. He would probably allow them, and the Edain, to reunite in the Timeless Halls, where they would probably spend all of eternity singing, dancing, and generally making merry. The rather cruel alternative that you mentioned seems, well, too cruel for the Elves. But then again, I just might be biased. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] As for the creatures allowed in Aman, Elves were the only beings with fëar allowed in there. Men generally weren't (with, of course, a few famous exceptions). There were plenty of birds and beasts in Aman, probably because both the Ainur and the Eldar loved them so much. Could you imagine Oromë and Yavanna living without birds, beasts, and plants? __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-28-2004, 03:40 AM	#4
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Elves live exactly as long as the earth that they live on. When it is over they die. Maybe. Who knows? __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

01-25-2004, 10:52 PM	#3
Beren-in-NJ Guest Posts: n/a	The best answer here is to read the Sil. I know that stinks as far as an answer, but you asked a complex "theological" question. After the Sil, start reading the HoME series, there are some interesting items regarding the last days. PS: Do not expect to find 100% consistency across JRRT's writings.