The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-28-2012, 10:16 AM   #1
Morsul the Dark
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Morsul the Dark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,135
Morsul the Dark has been trapped in the Barrow!
Did Sauron only want Middle Earth?

This is sort of a two part question.

I've been looking for A full map of Middle Earth most I'm findingg have just the main continent f ME. So first part, How far down does Harad go and how far East does Middle Earth expand?

Secondly did Saurn just want Middle Earth (Gondr Rhohan Shire etc.) r did he want the world including Harad Far Harad the far East, etc.
__________________
I know something you don't know
Morsul the Dark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2012, 11:42 AM   #2
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,850
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
A map like this is as complete as you'll find for Middle-earth. Tolkien's stories are heavily rooted in this northwestern corner of the continent. I feel like the south and east primarily existed to give the world depth. He wrote little on those lands because they were not of much concern to the main story. It's difficult to guess if he would have ever gotten around to writing much more about them than he did.

Sauron, like Melkor/Morgoth before him, seemed interested in ruling whatever he could, but more attracted to things he would have trouble controlling. Such is greed and the desire to dominate - always wanting what you can't have!

The Haradrim (south) and Easterlings (east) were evil and combative; I get the idea of barbaric as well. They fought alongside Sauron, whether under his direct influence or just up for supporting something they can wage war with. Thousands of years before the War of the Ring in the Third Age, Melkor had already ventured south and east, and we know that the men there were heavily involved in "Melkor-worship," as Tolkien calls it once. Sauron too had already had an influence there years earlier as we can see in a ringwraith's identity: Khamūl the Easterling,second greatest of the wraiths.

Also, we know upon arrival of the Istari (wizards), Saruman and the two blue wizards went into the east and only Saruman eventually returned. This time spent east could've been part of Saruman's corruption and betrayal. (While Tolkien was never completely decided about the fate of the two blue wizards, he said they stayed in the east for a long time, speculating that they began cults or magic traditions of their own.)

You should read The Silmarillion as you'll find an Easterling named Ulfang has a part to play. Don't let us spoil it for you.
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2012, 11:47 AM   #3
Tuor in Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,651
Tuor in Gondolin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via Yahoo to Tuor in Gondolin
Pipe

Middle-earth of course refers to all of the "Earth". Eriador, Rovannion,
Gondor, etc. are merely the northwest bits of M-e. Sauron was smart
enough (unlike the late Numenoreans) to stay away from Aman.

Have you tried Karen Fonstad's "The Atlas of Middle-earth"? There are
some interesting speculative maps in the first section "The First Age."
__________________
The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'
Tuor in Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2012, 01:49 PM   #4
KamexKoopa
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 12
KamexKoopa has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin View Post
Middle-earth of course refers to all of the "Earth"
Technically all of "Earth" is refered to as Arda, Middle-Earth is mostly the European part of the world
KamexKoopa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2012, 02:25 PM   #5
Tuor in Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,651
Tuor in Gondolin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via Yahoo to Tuor in Gondolin
Quote:
Originally posted by Kamexkoopa
Middle-Earth is mostly the European part of the world
More than "mostly" the European part of the world. For example, in
Letters #165:
Quote:
Middle-earth...is just a use of Middle English middel-erde
or (erthe), altered from Old English Middengeard: the
name for the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'. And although I have
not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what
geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this
'history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of
this planet.
One way of giving depth to Middle-earth is to only
describe in detail a small portion of it (what is, in effect, Europe) and
describing only vaguely, as someone in much of the medieval period, would
have known of Asia and most of Africa, and probably view it as menacing and mysterious.

Hence, Middle-earth is conceived as Europe, Africa, and Asia, in a time when
(Tolkien would teasingly now allude to continental drift as cause) the Old World
land mass "between the seas" of the Atlantic and Pacific were different.
__________________
The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

Last edited by Tuor in Gondolin; 12-28-2012 at 02:31 PM.
Tuor in Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 05:06 AM   #6
Zigūr
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Zigūr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 753
Zigūr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Zigūr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I believe it's true to say, is it not, that "Middle-earth" as a continent included the vast lands of Rhūn and Harad as well as "the West", ie Gondor, Rohan, Rhovanion and Eriador? At the end of the Third Age Sauron already more or less controlled all of the East and the South which seemingly made up the majority of Middle-earth's landmass.
It might be worth noting this remark from letter 183:
Quote:
Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world.
As well as this remark about Sauron from Morgoth's Ring:
Quote:
He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the "change of the world" at the Downfall of Nśmenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath.
What this would suggest to me is that Sauron's policy in the Third Age was the domination of all of Middle-earth but just Middle-earth; that way he would be the master of as much of Arda as possible while still apparently being free of the interference of the Valar or Eru (although of course he was lying to himself when he thought that either party had abandoned Middle-earth). Sauron knew, or at least thought he knew, his limits, it would seem, and the most powerful he could be was as ruler of the mortal lands of Middle-earth.
So I would say the answer is this: Sauron did only want Middle-earth, but Middle-earth was more than just the West. That being said, he already controlled the rest of it. Only the West was holding out.
Zigūr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 11:14 AM   #7
William Cloud Hicklin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,882
William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.William Cloud Hicklin is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Remember, in the Third Age Aman and Eressea were no longer part of "the Earth;" Tolkien implies at the end of Akallabeth that the proto-Americas were created at the time of the Downfall and the World Made Round. I have no doubt that ultimately Sauron would have liked to control the New (literally) World as well.
__________________
“It is good to be both loved and feared; but if one cannot be both, it is better to be feared than loved" --Machiavelli
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2013, 01:51 PM   #8
Celuien
Riveting Ribbiter
 
Celuien's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
Posts: 1,795
Celuien has just left Hobbiton.
I don't think Sauron would ever have been satisfied with partial dominion. Greed and desire never seem to be satisfied in the beings who have gone to the evil side. Ungoliant's never ending hunger comes to mind, along with Morgoth's dissatisfaction with staying in his realms in the North (although, granted his original desire was for all of Arda). I'd guess that Sauron would fall into the same mold.
__________________
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.
Celuien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2013, 05:34 PM   #9
Rhod the Red
Shade of Carn Dūm
 
Rhod the Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 257
Rhod the Red is still gossiping in the Green Dragon.
"This time spent east could've been part of Saruman's corruption and betrayal"

That's total rubbish. It was prompted by his study of Ring-lore and Souron's black arts.

You can't rewrite a storyline, esp. after publication.
__________________
Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari
Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present
Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia
Rhod the Red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 10:43 PM   #10
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,850
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Total rubbish? I say "could've" and "part," and I stand by them.

He spent time out east where Sauron and Morgoth had influence dating back to the First Age. There's nothing contradictory about suggesting he could've picked up certain arts - even specifically some of Sauron's arts, as you say - or just mentally came closer to succumbing to his own desire of power.

He was gone a thousand years. Don't think he was playing Bingo that long.
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2013, 11:20 PM   #11
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,209
Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.Boromir88 has passed beneath the Argonath.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legolas View Post
He spent time out east where Sauron and Morgoth had influence dating back to the First Age. There's nothing contradictory about suggesting he could've picked up certain arts - even specifically some of Sauron's arts, as you say - or just mentally came closer to succumbing to his own desire of power.
I agree. Saruman is perhaps my favorite villain created in literature, such a fascinating lad.

Anyway, his personality is someone who loves to study things and absorb knowledge. Even if he wasn't evil at the time he went East, his personality (like Boromir's) had little defects that if unchecked would definitely lead down a path to evil. He was proud (led to lusting for power to the point that he was blinded by it and I would say even paranoid about losing his authority) and jealous of Gandalf, even back in Valinor, but especially after figuring out Gandalf had been given one of the elven rings:

Quote:
And the Grey Messenger took the the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest~Unfinished Tales; The Istari
And taking into account what Treebeard knows of Saruman:

Quote:
"...he has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment."~Treebeard
Quote:
"I used to talk to him. There was a time when he was always walking about my woods. He was polite in those days, alway asking my leave (at least when he met me); and always eager to listen. I told him many things that he would never have found out himself; but he never repaid me in like kind."~ibid
The sentenced I bolded reveals a lot about Saruman (even in days when he was polite and "gave no trouble to his neighbours" - as Treebeard put it). He was a leech, a leech for knowledge but never "repaying" what he had learned. If it was of interest, and useful to Saruman he would take it, but he was not the giving type.

So, travelling East with the Blue Wizards I would say that yes, Saruman would have absorbed whatever knowledge he had a mind to take. We know that it was his devices which ultimate drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur too. This thirst for taking knowledge, yet not sharing any, probably contributed to his treachery. So, I think his knowledge of Sauron's mind and schemes (not to mention the study of Ring-lore) was unrivalled, even by Gandalf. At least until the time when Saruman falls to his lust for power, he becomes blind to the fact he has become a generic brand of Sauron.
__________________
Normalizing "changing your opinion, when presented with new information" one post at a time.
Fenris Penguin

Last edited by Boromir88; 01-03-2013 at 02:28 PM.
Boromir88 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 01:12 AM   #12
Rhod the Red
Shade of Carn Dūm
 
Rhod the Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 257
Rhod the Red is still gossiping in the Green Dragon.
I can think of one effort he did make of 'repaying'; regarding Rohan and the Dunlandings-troubled the Rhohirrim in the Westfold, etc.

He did also reveal elements of Ring-Lore to the White Council too if I recall correctly, just not everything.
__________________
Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari
Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present
Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

Last edited by Rhod the Red; 01-04-2013 at 01:49 AM. Reason: typo, extension
Rhod the Red is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:50 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.