Beginning and End - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eruhen · 03-06-2002, 10:55 AM

Anyone else noticed how much the beginning and end of Arda are so much like the Creation and the Apocalypse? Now I know that everyone is going to say that "Tolkien hated allegory" and all that crap, but the account of the Ainulindale and the second Prophecy of Mandos also sound like all the accounts of the beginning and end in all the monotheistic religions.

For those who haven't read 'The Lost Road' (I'm assuming that everyone who will respond has read the Ainulindale), here it is:

Quote:

"Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendil shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendil shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien; and she shall break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be leveled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save, Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

Now I'm ready for everyone to disagree with me, but, hey, that's what the Downs are for, huh? I've said my piece.

Joy · 03-06-2002, 01:14 PM

Eruhen, I did notice that myself. Thouhg I have not read 'The Lost Road' until now, I have heard many people here speak of it. I agree that the creation of Arda does have some similatiries to the Biblical Creation story. Even the end of Arda does, New Heaven, New Earth.

The story of Morgoth/Melkor being chained in Mandos then being loosed sounds a little like Rev. chapter 20 to me.

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ]

Aralaithiel · 03-06-2002, 03:09 PM

I agree and know that Tolkien hated allegory, but I have noticed that most writers write based on their personal ethos. So it does not suprise me that The Lost Road and the biblical Creation/Apocalypse stories have many similarites. Personally, I think it is beautiful. But then again, I am a Tolkienista! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Elven-Maiden · 03-06-2002, 08:08 PM

Well, for a man who hated allegories, he sure wrote a lot of good ones. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I noticed it too.

littlemanpoet · 03-06-2002, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Well, for a man who hated allegories, he sure wrote a lot of good ones.

No! Tolkien did not write allegories! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] I'm sure you all are aware of the distinction between allegory and application Tolkien himself made. Tolkien wrote an exquisite (to my mind) poem about this. I quote it below, as if has a bearing on this discussion:

Quote:

"Dear Sir," I said - "Although now long estranged,
Man is not wholly lost nor wholly changed.
Dis-graced he may be, yet is not de-throned,
and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned:
Man, Sub-creator, the refracted Light
through whom is splintered from a single White
to many hues, and endlessly combined
in living shapes that move from mind to mind.
Though all the crannies of the world we filled
with Elves and Goblins, though we dared to build
Gods and their houses out of dark and light,
and sowed the seed of dragons - 'twas our right
(used or misused). That right has not decayed:
we make still by the law in which we're made."

Herein lies Tolkien's creative foundation. Theistic, thoroughly human, he recognizes the image of God in humanity as each person'a creativity. And that creativity sub-creates from the Creator, can only create what has been imagined by the Creator already.

The text quoted by Eruhen is truly sublime, and it bears echoes of the Revelation of St. John. It also bears resemblances, to my mind, to Ragnarok; no surprise there. I ask you, how could it NOT resemble the apocalypses? It is apocalyptic itself. What you call allegory is NOT allegory, but sub-cration within the genre of apocalypse. What I find truly beautiful about Tolkien's is that his apocalypse bears the stamp of Middle Earth through and through. Alright. I've yacked enough.

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

Birdland · 03-06-2002, 11:27 PM

Quote:

The Lost Road and the biblical Creation/Apocalypse stories have many similarites.

True, but read about Ragarnok, the Norse Creation/Apocalypse story. See if you can pick out the similarities. (There is even a familiar name in there. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

Of course, all Stories of man are One Story.

Joy · 03-07-2002, 12:00 AM

Cool, I actually see several names that are silmilar.

Bifrost - Bifur
Vali = Valinor
Gimle = Gimli, actually means Heaven or paridise

Quote:

while brothers rip at each others' hearts.

Sounds like Feanor and the Kin-Slaying.

Quote:

The wolves Skoll and Hati Hrodvitnisson will swallow the sun and the moon, bringing total darkness into the world

Sounds like what Melkor and Ungilant did to the two Tress on Yavanna

Kalimac · 03-07-2002, 12:43 AM

Didn't see it mentioned before but of course there always the Norse "Midgard" - Middle-earth. And almost all of the dwarf-names from "The Hobbit" turn up in various Norse Eddas (even Bombur, which I hadn't expected).

And as for allegory...maybe Tolkien just hated the idea of deliberately writing an allegory, the same way a lot of writers to avoid consciously using symbolism ("OK, the color red will represent danger when it appears"). On the other hand, sometimes symbolism will develop in a story naturally to point where you read your own work over and notice it and wonder where it came from, and that can work well. I think that Tolkien's stories are fantastic allegories, just naturally produced ones that grew into allegories on their own without any conscious effort on his part.

Eruhen · 03-07-2002, 09:19 AM

I just realized a flaw in my reasoning. The account of the Last Battle doesn't take into account any judgement of anyone, except for Morgoth, which is a staple of all end-times stories. Personally, I wonder when and if the races are judged for what they did in ME. I imagine that Eru would do that, but the prophecy in 'The Lost Road' says nothing about Him at all!

Just wondering.

littlemanpoet · 03-07-2002, 03:31 PM

Quote:

I think that Tolkien's stories are fantastic allegories, just naturally produced ones that grew into allegories on their own without any conscious effort on his part.

Sigh. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] You are welcome to your opinions, of course, Kalimac, but by asserting that what Tolkien did was "without any conscious effort on his own part", you defeat your assertion because allegories are "the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions truths or generalizations about human existence".

As Tolkien explained over and over again, he did not write that kind of fictional story. Rather, there are many APPLICATIONS of meaning to be found in LOTR.

And yes, it's true that readers can FIND all the allegories that they wish in a work, whether they should or not. Allegory is indeed the cheapest form of creative writing, and frankly it's no compliment to the author to read any number of different allegories into his/her story. Usually all one does is cloud the issue or lose the beauty originally intended.

Kalessin · 03-07-2002, 07:24 PM

Littleman, I agree with you, the 'allegory' tag is often and infuriatingly mis-applied to Tokien (and other writers). Finding a structural or even symbolic similiarity is a million miles from proving allegorical intent. And your excellent summation of the "theistic humanism" in Tolkien's work actually does much more justice to his creativity and original voice. I have tried - believe me I have tried - to argue repeatedly that to imply LotR or other works are some kind of 'new age' re-working of the Bible, or that Tolkien was coding explicitly evangelical messages through his mythos, is an insult to his work. Proponents of this argument (ie. Gandalf is Jesus etc.) are by inference turning JRRT into little more than a subtle plagiarist or 'spin doctor'.

Traditional Christian sensibilities, and specifically the primacy of honour, loyalty, self-sacrifice and platonic love as the highest of virtues are self-evident in all Tolkien's works. This inherently chivalric morality is entirely consistent with his own contextual writing and expressed intent. I can't see how overlaying this with an evangelical propagandist agenda makes his works more meaningful or enjoyable - in fact it achieves the opposite. I can't help worrying about appropriation and an attempt at 'ownership' when I see this.

If you review the major world mythos, from the Ramayana to the Mabinogion, from the Neibelung to the Tuathe de Danaan, from Quetzacoatl to the Iliad and Odyssey, you can and will find symbolic and moral similarities, coincidences, narrative methodologies, and an attempt at both lyricism and depth - and it is Tolkien's achievement that, working alone in a cynical and world-weary era, he painstakingly re-captured and re-invigorated readers with some of this essence in his works.

As literature, the traditional English translation of the Bible - particularly the Gospels - is a work of profound conviction and complexity ; it is challenging, revelatory, joyful, transcendent and volcanic in its intensity. No allegory, however disguised with eclectic archetypes from world myths, could do it justice, and such an act is not necessary. The LotR and other works were an act of creativity and attentiveness by Tolkien, suffused with his cultural and spiritual sensibilities, and with conscious and unconscious references to the pantheon of heroic and magical storytelling he loved so much. Let it speak and stand for itself. And let the Bible stand and speak for itself too.

Peace

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

littlemanpoet · 03-08-2002, 09:50 PM

Quote:

I can't see how overlaying this with an evangelical propagandist agenda makes his works more meaningful or enjoyable - in fact it achieves the opposite.

Yes. Well said, Kalessin! This is part of Tolkien's objection to C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, in which there is a rather clear allegory - which has served to polarize Lewis into an Evangelical-Christian-Poster-Author.

doug*platypus · 02-09-2003, 05:21 AM

Ragnarök

Wow! That's pretty scary - Farmer Giles' dog Garm is actually the Hound of Hell?!

The most interesting comparison between Tolkien's Last Battle and Ragnarök (apart from the Gimli thing) is that Ragnarök is an ending and a beginning. Tolkien's world doesn't have this cyclic ending, does it? What happens after the Last Battle (whatever it's called)?

03-06-2002, 01:14 PM	#2
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Eruhen, I did notice that myself. Thouhg I have not read 'The Lost Road' until now, I have heard many people here speak of it. I agree that the creation of Arda does have some similatiries to the Biblical Creation story. Even the end of Arda does, New Heaven, New Earth. The story of Morgoth/Melkor being chained in Mandos then being loosed sounds a little like Rev. chapter 20 to me. [ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ] __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

03-06-2002, 03:09 PM	#3
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	I agree and know that Tolkien hated allegory, but I have noticed that most writers write based on their personal ethos. So it does not suprise me that The Lost Road and the biblical Creation/Apocalypse stories have many similarites. Personally, I think it is beautiful. But then again, I am a Tolkienista! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-06-2002, 08:08 PM	#4
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Well, for a man who hated allegories, he sure wrote a lot of good ones. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I noticed it too. __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

03-07-2002, 12:43 AM	#8
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Didn't see it mentioned before but of course there always the Norse "Midgard" - Middle-earth. And almost all of the dwarf-names from "The Hobbit" turn up in various Norse Eddas (even Bombur, which I hadn't expected). And as for allegory...maybe Tolkien just hated the idea of deliberately writing an allegory, the same way a lot of writers to avoid consciously using symbolism ("OK, the color red will represent danger when it appears"). On the other hand, sometimes symbolism will develop in a story naturally to point where you read your own work over and notice it and wonder where it came from, and that can work well. I think that Tolkien's stories are fantastic allegories, just naturally produced ones that grew into allegories on their own without any conscious effort on his part. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-07-2002, 09:19 AM	#9
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	I just realized a flaw in my reasoning. The account of the Last Battle doesn't take into account any judgement of anyone, except for Morgoth, which is a staple of all end-times stories. Personally, I wonder when and if the races are judged for what they did in ME. I imagine that Eru would do that, but the prophecy in 'The Lost Road' says nothing about Him at all! Just wondering. __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

03-07-2002, 07:24 PM	#11
Kalessin Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Earthsea, or London Posts: 175	Littleman, I agree with you, the 'allegory' tag is often and infuriatingly mis-applied to Tokien (and other writers). Finding a structural or even symbolic similiarity is a million miles from proving allegorical intent. And your excellent summation of the "theistic humanism" in Tolkien's work actually does much more justice to his creativity and original voice. I have tried - believe me I have tried - to argue repeatedly that to imply LotR or other works are some kind of 'new age' re-working of the Bible, or that Tolkien was coding explicitly evangelical messages through his mythos, is an insult to his work. Proponents of this argument (ie. Gandalf is Jesus etc.) are by inference turning JRRT into little more than a subtle plagiarist or 'spin doctor'. Traditional Christian sensibilities, and specifically the primacy of honour, loyalty, self-sacrifice and platonic love as the highest of virtues are self-evident in all Tolkien's works. This inherently chivalric morality is entirely consistent with his own contextual writing and expressed intent. I can't see how overlaying this with an evangelical propagandist agenda makes his works more meaningful or enjoyable - in fact it achieves the opposite. I can't help worrying about appropriation and an attempt at 'ownership' when I see this. If you review the major world mythos, from the Ramayana to the Mabinogion, from the Neibelung to the Tuathe de Danaan, from Quetzacoatl to the Iliad and Odyssey, you can and will find symbolic and moral similarities, coincidences, narrative methodologies, and an attempt at both lyricism and depth - and it is Tolkien's achievement that, working alone in a cynical and world-weary era, he painstakingly re-captured and re-invigorated readers with some of this essence in his works. As literature, the traditional English translation of the Bible - particularly the Gospels - is a work of profound conviction and complexity ; it is challenging, revelatory, joyful, transcendent and volcanic in its intensity. No allegory, however disguised with eclectic archetypes from world myths, could do it justice, and such an act is not necessary. The LotR and other works were an act of creativity and attentiveness by Tolkien, suffused with his cultural and spiritual sensibilities, and with conscious and unconscious references to the pantheon of heroic and magical storytelling he loved so much. Let it speak and stand for itself. And let the Bible stand and speak for itself too. Peace [ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

02-09-2003, 05:21 AM	#13
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Ragnarök Wow! That's pretty scary - Farmer Giles' dog Garm is actually the Hound of Hell?! The most interesting comparison between Tolkien's Last Battle and Ragnarök (apart from the Gimli thing) is that Ragnarök is an ending and a beginning. Tolkien's world doesn't have this cyclic ending, does it? What happens after the Last Battle (whatever it's called)? __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.