Poetry in LOTR - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

02-08-2004, 12:34 PM

Why in your opinion has Tolkien included such amounts of different kinds of poetry in his work? Do they serve a particular purpose?

Maverick · 02-08-2004, 12:48 PM

Most of the songs and poetry are used to tell stories and history about middle-earth. The tails are past down so that history is not forgotten or repeated.

lathspell · 02-08-2004, 12:50 PM

Tolkien had a decree in Old English and was Professor in Anglo-Saxon at the Oxford University, so he knew much about languages. I guess the reason is as simple him liking languages so much that therefore he made the M-e languages and the large amount of poetry for his books.

greetings,
lathspell

Kransha · 02-08-2004, 01:30 PM

Think of it this way..

In real life, people sing songs or humorous poems constantly. Not as much nowadays as long ago. People sing national anthems, funny children's songs, story songs, ballads, their favorite lyric, depending on their mood. In LotR, Aragorn couldn't spontaneously start singing "Row, Row, Row your boat" at his coronation. Tolkein had to create all the popular verse that people knew, for mistrels and anyone else.

Oroaranion · 02-08-2004, 03:44 PM

In the books, the Elves seem to write little, and pass down their memories in song. This would explain all the Elvish songs and poetry that come up often.

Well, it does to me [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Lobelia · 02-12-2004, 09:21 PM

Also, if you read old Northern sagas, you'll find that characters *do* burst into song or verse at the drop of a helmet. It's just the way they're written. And some of the poems were written by Tolkien before LOTR and he sneaked them in, e.g. the Man in the Moon song Frodo sings at Bree.

Gorwingel · 02-13-2004, 05:40 PM

Oh, of course the songs and poems serve a purpose. Just as many have said, they are very much "Tokien" and additionally they are used to pass down the history, traditions and legends of the peoples of Middle Earth. The use of verbal stories and songs to tell history used to be much more previlent, but because of the creation of other ways to communicate it has mostly dissapeared. Now songs and poems are used less to tell history, and more to entertain (but even the songs and poems of today can still tell a lot about our culture and and traditions). Additionally I think the songs and poems just fit. I would most certainly miss them if they were not there.

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-14-2004, 04:06 AM

Poetry in LotR also emphasizes the cultural diversity of the various races. Just think of the difference between the hobbits' down-to-earth Bath Song and the 'high poetry' of the Elves, or the heroic, alliterative free verse of the Rohirrim. Each culture has its own distinctive style, giving us a feeling of the depth of diversion in Middle-earth. Even Tom Bombadil, who is a unique character, has a unique style of poetry to characterize him. I think the poetry shows those differences much more so than the everyday prose of the characters, especially since Tolkien 'translated' that into Common Speech for his readers.

zb · 02-14-2004, 05:26 AM

"heroic, alliterative free verse"

*cough-anglo saxon poetry-cough*

Elianna · 02-14-2004, 12:20 PM

I agree with Estelyn Telcontar; all the poems and songs reinterate just how different all the peoples of Middle-earth are.
Also, I think it's Tolkien's style, showing he's a poet, not only a reader of prose.
It also adds some diversity in the story: to make sure you're not reading huge long chapters of solid prose, Tolkien dots every chapter with at least a small poem.
I don't think it's so strange anyway. I know I'm always bursting into song....
FRODO OF THE NINE FINGERS AND THE RING OF DOOM!....sorry. Now whenever I get bored I always suggest to my friends: Wanna sing a Hobbit drinking song?!

Ellwyn · 02-21-2004, 08:33 AM

I agree with Oroaranion, tales were passed down in word, and so they would be remembered, in song.

Finwe · 02-21-2004, 09:50 AM

Singing songs/poetry is also a way of bonding with your friends. Think back to all the times you've sung with your friends. They don't necessarily have to be formal songs, they could easily be drinking songs. You feel a heightened form of camaraderie with your friends afterwards. The same applied in Middle-earth. The Hobbits' drinking songs, the Rohirrim's war songs, and the Elves' ballads all brought the singers together, and kept the bonds of fellowship strong in world that was fast falling to darkness.

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 02-21-2004, 11:18 AM

*thought about Ol' Tom Bombadilo the Merry Fellow.*

Quote:

"Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo! By Water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow By fire, sun and moon, harken now and hear us! Come, Tom Bombadil, for our need is near us!"

*sweat* That's quite a song to tide over times of Darkness! It was said that this song has a cheering effect too!

Lathriel · 02-21-2004, 05:18 PM

I think Gandalf even tells Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn that the people of Rohan know their history through songs and poems because not all of them can read.

As a person I also simply liked the poems and songs because I like poetry.

In the time of middle-earth the entertainment was through songs, poems and tales instead of movies

Samwise · 02-21-2004, 05:52 PM

Some of the songs seemed to reveal things about the characters themselves at times, too.

"Gil-galad was an Elven King...." the others turned in amazement, for the voice was Sam's.
"Mr. Bilbo taught it to me when I was a little lad."

"Troll sat alone on a seat of stone..."
"Next he'll be a wizard, or a warrior!" *can we say foreshadowing?

warrenerd · 02-21-2004, 11:56 PM

tolkien had an appreciation for poetry and music. he realized the historic value and, as both a creative flare and an important foundation, wrote the many sonnets stories we've come to associate with tolkien's form of writing. i think...
~shouting at the wall~

02-08-2004, 12:34 PM	#1
Felis Dei Guest Posts: n/a	Poetry in LOTR Why in your opinion has Tolkien included such amounts of different kinds of poetry in his work? Do they serve a particular purpose?

02-08-2004, 12:50 PM	#3
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	Tolkien had a decree in Old English and was Professor in Anglo-Saxon at the Oxford University, so he knew much about languages. I guess the reason is as simple him liking languages so much that therefore he made the M-e languages and the large amount of poetry for his books. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

02-08-2004, 01:30 PM	#4
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	Think of it this way.. In real life, people sing songs or humorous poems constantly. Not as much nowadays as long ago. People sing national anthems, funny children's songs, story songs, ballads, their favorite lyric, depending on their mood. In LotR, Aragorn couldn't spontaneously start singing "Row, Row, Row your boat" at his coronation. Tolkein had to create all the popular verse that people knew, for mistrels and anyone else. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

02-08-2004, 03:44 PM	#5
Oroaranion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 94	In the books, the Elves seem to write little, and pass down their memories in song. This would explain all the Elvish songs and poetry that come up often. Well, it does to me [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

02-13-2004, 05:40 PM	#7
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	Oh, of course the songs and poems serve a purpose. Just as many have said, they are very much "Tokien" and additionally they are used to pass down the history, traditions and legends of the peoples of Middle Earth. The use of verbal stories and songs to tell history used to be much more previlent, but because of the creation of other ways to communicate it has mostly dissapeared. Now songs and poems are used less to tell history, and more to entertain (but even the songs and poems of today can still tell a lot about our culture and and traditions). Additionally I think the songs and poems just fit. I would most certainly miss them if they were not there. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

02-08-2004, 12:48 PM	#2
Maverick Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 19	Most of the songs and poetry are used to tell stories and history about middle-earth. The tails are past down so that history is not forgotten or repeated.

02-12-2004, 09:21 PM	#6
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	Also, if you read old Northern sagas, you'll find that characters do burst into song or verse at the drop of a helmet. It's just the way they're written. And some of the poems were written by Tolkien before LOTR and he sneaked them in, e.g. the Man in the Moon song Frodo sings at Bree.

02-14-2004, 04:06 AM	#8
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,499	Poetry in LotR also emphasizes the cultural diversity of the various races. Just think of the difference between the hobbits' down-to-earth Bath Song and the 'high poetry' of the Elves, or the heroic, alliterative free verse of the Rohirrim. Each culture has its own distinctive style, giving us a feeling of the depth of diversion in Middle-earth. Even Tom Bombadil, who is a unique character, has a unique style of poetry to characterize him. I think the poetry shows those differences much more so than the everyday prose of the characters, especially since Tolkien 'translated' that into Common Speech for his readers. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-14-2004, 05:26 AM	#9
zb Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: perth, west australia Posts: 71	"heroic, alliterative free verse" cough-anglo saxon poetry-cough __________________ "Do you think I am trying to weave a spell? Perhaps I am; but remember your fairy tales. Spells are used for breaking enchantments as well as inducing them. And you and I have need of the strongest spell that can be found to wake us from the evil enchantment of worldliness..." - C.S. Lewis

02-14-2004, 12:20 PM	#10
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	I agree with Estelyn Telcontar; all the poems and songs reinterate just how different all the peoples of Middle-earth are. Also, I think it's Tolkien's style, showing he's a poet, not only a reader of prose. It also adds some diversity in the story: to make sure you're not reading huge long chapters of solid prose, Tolkien dots every chapter with at least a small poem. I don't think it's so strange anyway. I know I'm always bursting into song.... FRODO OF THE NINE FINGERS AND THE RING OF DOOM!....sorry. Now whenever I get bored I always suggest to my friends: Wanna sing a Hobbit drinking song?! __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

02-21-2004, 08:33 AM	#11
Ellwyn Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Wales Posts: 27	I agree with Oroaranion, tales were passed down in word, and so they would be remembered, in song. __________________ 'Too often have I heard of duty. But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?' - Éowyn

02-21-2004, 09:50 AM	#12
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Singing songs/poetry is also a way of bonding with your friends. Think back to all the times you've sung with your friends. They don't necessarily have to be formal songs, they could easily be drinking songs. You feel a heightened form of camaraderie with your friends afterwards. The same applied in Middle-earth. The Hobbits' drinking songs, the Rohirrim's war songs, and the Elves' ballads all brought the singers together, and kept the bonds of fellowship strong in world that was fast falling to darkness. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

02-21-2004, 05:18 PM	#14
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	I think Gandalf even tells Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn that the people of Rohan know their history through songs and poems because not all of them can read. As a person I also simply liked the poems and songs because I like poetry. In the time of middle-earth the entertainment was through songs, poems and tales instead of movies __________________ Back again

02-21-2004, 05:52 PM	#15
Samwise Faithful Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: #3 Bagshot Row, Petaluma, Ca Posts: 2,299	Some of the songs seemed to reveal things about the characters themselves at times, too. "Gil-galad was an Elven King...." the others turned in amazement, for the voice was Sam's. "Mr. Bilbo taught it to me when I was a little lad." "Troll sat alone on a seat of stone..." "Next he'll be a wizard, or a warrior!" can we say foreshadowing?* __________________ Giving thanks unto the Father...In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins.~Colossians1:12a,14 * * * * * * * I am Samwise son of Hamfast, if by hoe or trowel I can get these weeds out of your garden, I will.You have my shears!;)

02-21-2004, 11:56 PM	#16
warrenerd Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 32	tolkien had an appreciation for poetry and music. he realized the historic value and, as both a creative flare and an important foundation, wrote the many sonnets stories we've come to associate with tolkien's form of writing. i think... ~shouting at the wall~ __________________ as soon as you're born, you start dying. so you might as well have a good time.