What's up with Celeborn?

[A Little Green]

I was reading the LotR today and came up with the following passage where Celeborn says his farewell to Aragorn:

But Celeborn said: "Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!"

What is he talking about? I am not so deeply learned in Celeborn's personal history, so it just made me wonder whether he is just talking about the fading of Lothlórien or something else. Since this kind of little things tend to bother me, any help would be very much appreciated.

[Aganzir]

I'm not perfectly sure about this either, but I've always thought he was mainly talking about Galadriel, who left for Valinor before him.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I'm not perfectly sure about this either, but I've always thought he was mainly talking about Galadriel, who left for Valinor before him.

Yes, this is how I always understood it as well. However the context is very dark, and the fact that Galadriel left as well. I always wondered - she probably left simply because the Ring lost its power, she was a Ringbearer, Lothlórien faded, and most important of all, she was granted the mercy to return to Valinor - at last. So I wonder, why didn't Celeborn go with her? Were non-Ringbearer passengers "not allowed" on the ship? If so, then it's a very tragic tale, however I would think that unnecessary cruel, so to say. Did Celeborn simply want to remain in Middle-Earth for some time still, maybe supported by the fact that the remaining Galadhrim begged him to stay as their king (or lord, to be "kosher"), so that at least he would be there when Galadriel left? Or, was Galadriel granted the pardon and mercy by the Valar, but Celeborn didn't? That's even harder to believe. This is a question I'd really like to explore more, but can anything be concluded besides mere guesses?

[Mithalwen]

Celeborn's history went through several versions so there may not be a definitve answer. Certainly I can't recall anything in any of them (though my readling of HoME has not been consistently thorough) that gives any reason that Celeborn should be forbidden to pass in to the West.

Hammond and Scull in the LOTR reader's companion refer to the abandoned Epilogue in which Sam tells his daughter that Celeborn still lives in Lorien and has not tired of his own land - when he does he can leave and points out that it is only a very short time in Elvish terms.

They say that this refers to an early version of Celeborn's history and refer back to abn extremely lengthy note on "The Mirror of Galadriel" which commences with a quote from Christopher Tolkien "There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn" [and who are we to argue? !].

The comment on Greenie' quote then refers to Appendix B and the Prologue which state that Celeborn soon went to join his grandsons at Rivendell but there is no record of the date he sought the havens. It also refers to an unpublished letter to a reader which says that as Celeborn had never lived in Valinor and would remain until he saw the beginning of the dominion of men but the separation would be brief in Elvish terms.

I suspect that his remaining may be linked to the postponed choice of Elladan and Elrohir for whatever reason that was. It is a plausible that he might remain either for his grandsons to be ready to leave or if they chose not too, horrific though the experience no doubt would be) until their mortal lives ended. However since
I get the impression that Arwen died alone in Lorien, my guess would be that at some point in between the passing of the Ringbearers and the death or Arwen, Celeborn and the twins left.

[Rumil]

Is Celeborn perhaps referring to the loss of Celebrian, his daughter?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

However since I get the impression that Arwen died alone in Lorien, my guess would be that at some point in between the passing of the Ringbearers and the death or Arwen, Celeborn and the twins left.

Someone had to be there to bury her, though. It might have been Celeborn and friends, but I guess it seems unlikely that they would STILL be there at that late stage.

[The Might]

Firstly, in case it perhaps helps here is the full quotation:



Then Aragorn took leave of Celeborn and Galadriel; and the Lady said to him: ‘Elfstone, through darkness you have come to your hope, and have now all your desire. Use well the days!’
But Celeborn said: ‘Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!’

I personally feel that Celeborn is refering not to something that had happened or was going to happen in M-e, but outside it.
Elves did not know what awaited Men after their deaths, but it is said in the Silmarillion that with the passing of time Elves and even Ainur would eventually come to envy Men for the gift they receive from Eru.

Is this not perhaps already a proof for this. Is Celeborn not perhaps actually saying "I hope that what awaits you beyond death will be better than all the time I still have to spend on Arda and that Arwen will be by your side until the world is remade." ?
Just a thought.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Is Celeborn perhaps referring to the loss of Celebrian, his daughter?

That would be another possibility, and not an unlikely one, I'd say - as much possible as the others.

Originally Posted by The Might

Is this not perhaps already a proof for this. Is Celeborn not perhaps actually saying "I hope that what awaits you beyond death will be better than all the time I still have to spend on Arda and that Arwen will be by your side until the world is remade." ?

But this is very interesting. Very inventive concept! So, you mean like, that the sentence in fact is composed of two different statements: May your doom be other than mine. And also, may your treasure remain with you till the end. Did I understand it correctly? So it's like, that the second part of the sentence wouldn't be unfolding more the first part, but something totally different. Oh, how I love this! All the possibilities are possible and make this more interesting.

Hmm, is there anything else that could help us specify more which alternative was the one Celeborn (or Tolkien) had in mind? (Maybe it was intentional to leave it open to more interpretations, but somehow I doubt it.) What about context? Is it possible that it may tell us more?

[The Might]

I personally also saw Galadriel's "Use well the days!" advice right before Celeborn's statement as a foreshadowing of what was to come.
When she tells him that it is clear that he wants him to keep in mind that he is after all mortal and that there is a limit to the things he can achieve in the world. As such, Galadriel wants him to do his best in the time that remains.

Celeborn afterwards, also taking Galadriel's advice into consideration thinks about the question of mortality and wishes Aragorn to suffer a better fate, perhaps here also thinking about the gift of death.
And of course he also wishes him that his treasure, Arwen, will remain by his side until death and beyond. And this also truly happens when Arwen goes to Lórien to willingly give up her life.