PJ's Sauron

[Boromir88]

I was wondering if anyone has seen TTT EE, because I have heard that they spotted Arwen riding out with everyone else at Helm's Deep. I have not seen TTT EE so I was wondering if this was accurate?

I would be extremely, how should I put this, ticked off if PJ included Sauron fighting Aragorn. If they did include it in the ROTK EE, I agree with Eomer, we'd have people wondering if there were two saurons. The eye of Sauron really isn't Sauron but if you have Aragorn fighting Sauron I can definately see people thinking there's two Saurons and getting all confused.

[Essex]

re sauron / aragorn fight.

I think what we have is not a 'eureka' moment by Jackson, but the other 2 scriptwriters obviously talking him out of having the fight in the film.

I don't think scriptwriting (especially THIS book) is Jackson's forte, that's why he got his wife and Boyens to assist. (and in assist I really mean control)

I think boyens and walsh pretended to let him have his way by letting him film the scene, and then explained to him what he would look like after tolkienists had got hold of him if the fight scene had appeared in the film.

So Jackson comes back with a 'ok, no sauron but we'll have this massive orc/troll type thing attack him.'

Cue boyens and walsh look at each other, roll their eyes, and say 'ok, peter, have your troll then'.

We had the same sort of thing hapening in Helm's Deep. Boyens and walsh go into a corner. "OK, let him film arwen knocking seven shades out of a few orcs. We can always airbrush her out afterwards. He'll be too busy working on ROTK to remember anyway......"

[Boromir88]

I think that troll orc guy was supposed to be Gothmog. Gothmog was mentioned in one line from the book and its funny how he gets more screen time and "build up" then the Witch King. The book really never explained how Gothmog looked, or what he was, but he most likely wasn't an orc, Sauron would have never trusted an orc to be 2nd in command of his armies. Some seem to think Gothmog was one of the Ringwraiths but I don't think so. Maybe just some twisted creation by Sauron, or someone Similar to the Mouth of Sauron, who was taken in and learned much magic and necromancy from Sauron. It was believed the Mouth of Sauron was a black numenorean, so Gothmog could be similar.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I am surprised you have missed all the discussion of Gothmog in this forum Boromir88 . Movie-Gothmog is the pink Orc who commands in the Battle of Pellenor Fields.

Try searching through the RotK threads to find debate on Gothmog. I assure you, some of it is quite hilarious.

[gorthaur_cruel]

Sauron was most definitely not an eyeball. I can quote many, many sources for this, but I'll quote the two main ones.

This is a quote from Tolkien's letter #246, where he's talking about Sauron in the Third Age, not the Second or First.

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.

Can it get any clearer than that?

'Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum, shuddering.

There is a rather large chance that Gollum actually saw Sauron during his...visit...to Mordor. Thus, he would know I can't really see an eyeball as having a hand.

There are other evidences that show that Sauron was not an eye. Tolkien once describes what WOULD have happened if Gollum did not bite off Frodo's finger and fall in Mount Doom. Frodo would try to command the Nazguls with the Ring, and they would obey him, to some extent. Instead of forcing him, they would try to coax him into coming out of Mt. Doom (They would still follow Sauron's orders more than Frodo's though). Here, Tolkien says that eventually Sauron himself would come and wrest the Ring from Frodo. Unless an eyeball comes and tackles Frodo, I don't see how that could happen.

That aside, I didn't really like the movie version of Sauron either. It just didn't have the 'mystical' feeling that it did in the book. In the book, Sauron rarely appears, and none of the fellowship actually see him. He's somewhat shrouded in mystery. In the movie, they take him out, give him a shape, and show him off like some sort of...eyeball

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

That is very true gorthaur. Peter Jackson's now-famous 'Darth Vader' analogy never made any sense to me. He claimed that we needed to see Sauron in the films. However, I always found Sauron to be particularly effective in the book because we never met him first-hand. There was terror enough in our own imagination.

[The Only Real Estel]

That is very true gorthaur. Peter Jackson's now-famous 'Darth Vader' analogy never made any sense to me. He claimed that we needed to see Sauron in the films. However, I always found Sauron to be particularly effective in the book because we never met him first-hand. There was terror enough in our own imagination.

Precisely. What you don't see can easily be equally effective as what you do see. Besides, now that PJ has gone out on a limb & claimed that we 'needed to see the bad guy' (Sauron of course), where is the bad guy that we needed to see so badly? Obviously he didn't mean more shots of the eye atop Barad-dur . I haven't heard any explanations or reasonings for his sudden change in philosophy (though I'm sure certainly grateful for it!).

The limb is cracking...

[Essex]

Estel, in answer to your point

I haven't heard any explanations or reasonings for his sudden change in philosophy

please see my post above. This was only said half in jest. I actually meant what I said in a roundabout way. I believe his main scriptwriters managed to talk him out of having the aragorn / sauron fight. In the end they reasoned with him that such a change to the book would be seen as sacriligeous, and unforgivable. In the end he saw sense.

PS re the eye / spirit / bodily form of Sauron. If we DID see Sauron in a 'bodily' form during ROTK, then we would have no doubt seen the Aragorn / sauron fight. There would have been no way (to the non readers of the book) that he wouldn't have come out for a fight with Aragorn if he had a body. Perhaps there were scenes filmed of Sauron in his physhical form during rotk, but were edited out.

I, it seems for one, am happy with the final version of Sauron in these films. ie as an all seing Eye. Who cares if people say it looks like a light house in one scene. Just accept it and live with it...........

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Jackson could have made Aragorn blonde. Would you, Essex, argue in that case that we should just accept it and live with it?

[The Only Real Estel]

please see my post above. This was only said half in jest. I actually meant what I said in a roundabout way. I believe his main scriptwriters managed to talk him out of having the aragorn / sauron fight. In the end they reasoned with him that such a change to the book would be seen as sacriligeous, and unforgivable. In the end he saw sense.

It is a possibility, Essex. But if it was so important to scare us all by telling us we had to see Sauron & that was all there was to it, is it not so important to explain, at the very least to the non-book audience, why PJ decided to leave him out? Maybe he's going to say a bit about it in the RotK EE, but some of the explanations they give in the EE material leave me cringing & wishing I had the opportunity to ask them just a few questions .

[gorthaur_cruel]

PS re the eye / spirit / bodily form of Sauron. If we DID see Sauron in a 'bodily' form during ROTK, then we would have no doubt seen the Aragorn / sauron fight. There would have been no way (to the non readers of the book) that he wouldn't have come out for a fight with Aragorn if he had a body. Perhaps there were scenes filmed of Sauron in his physhical form during rotk, but were edited out.

If they just didn't show Sauron at all, we wouldn't have that problem. Even if they did show Sauron with a body, I think the non-book-readers would realise that Dark Lords are lords, not knights. And that he'd have learned his lesson from the Second Age.

[Essex]

Eomer. re

Jackson could have made Aragorn blonde. Would you, Essex, argue in that case that we should just accept it and live with it?

Yes I COULD live with Aragorn being blonde. It doesn't really matter. (But I must admit it took a bit of getting used to with Malfoy having blonde hair in the HP films. I always thought of him having black hair, but then going back on the books, I realised it WAS blonde).

But as I said it doesn't matter. Aragorn blonde? Why not! Anyway, as the JRR himself tells us about Aragorn, he had a "....shaggy head of dark hair necked with grey, and in a pale stem face a pair of keen grey eyes."

Was Viggo's hair 'shaggy', necked with grey, and did he have keen grey eyes? Who cares? As long as the character was well written and acted well, that is what counts for. Not his hair colour.

I'm just glad that the main thing people seem to be moaning about re ROTK is Sauron's Eye and lighthouse effect. It goes to show what a marvellous film it is if this is the main thing we can think to argue about!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Essex, I am inclined to agree with you on that last point (however, I'm sure you've already found plenty of opposition on the Downs regarding that!). I do think in general the film was spectacular. However, because expectations are so high then there was bound to be complaints.

We could really go off on a tangent here so lets not bother. I still think the eyeball fiasco is worth debating though, and for anyone who wants to resume that discussion, you'll probably have to go back a couple of posts.