Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Mithalwen]

Ok..... more tech problems or just quiet? Hmm.

[elronds_daughter]

I think just quiet. It's an ungodly hour on the US East Coast.

Mith, "on my radar" means "shall be looking at more closely now." Doesn't mean I think you're a wolf. Just means I'm going to be trying to understand you better.

Right, well, off to Wednesday. Ick. I shan't be around for another nine hours or so, but I'll try to be talkative when I get back.

[Nerwen]

Mith– thanks for your kind words. And my immediate circle are fine.

This amuses me quite a lot:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I'm on the radar because someone can't get a handle on me? Well sweetie that is your problem not mine. I am not a bally suitcase. I am not meant to have a handle.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Hardly going to take that on trust from you right now, am I? Have a care, Loslote; you're creating exactly the form of alliance that was the glue missing from my case. Give some solid examples, if you like, of what you mean by this. I note only right now that Glirdan is playing well, helpful, articulate and vigilant, and that makes me want to be very cautious. I have much solider feelings about you.

And - "sally is her usual cupcakey self"? Come, what colourless piffle. I gather that sally is for some reason known as a cupcake, but I really don't see how that has a bearing on her guilt or innocence.

Anguirel– what Lottie says about Glirdan is true: he tends to make a pretty obvious wolf. But then, her argument here amounts to, "he's not actually holding up a sign saying, 'Wolf! Lynch me!' so he must be innocent!" And then Sally– well, again, she does quite often follow a hunch that someone's evil, and sticks to it regardless; however, she's posted so little this game that it's quite a stretch to say she's "her usual self" (cupcakey or otherwise).

And having said that, I think the post of Lottie's at least rules out the "triumvirate" of Lottie, Glirdan and Sally. I can't see a Wolflote rushing in to defend both her packmates as openly as that.

There's a difference between actively looking for Cobblers (as opposed to wolves) and drawing a conclusion about a particular person, though. Ang jumped out at me (both in the attention-grabbing way and the attacking way ), so I looked at him. Now that I think he's a Cobbler, I'll hardly be pressing for his lynch.

Lottie, I'm not of course saying Anguirel's above suspicion, but I don't believe you've given any reason yet for thinking he's a cobbler except a.) he suspects you and b.) he talks too much. How can you be so sure?

[Mithalwen]

Sorry I have just found out that Ang didn't know the board was back and I had a blonde moment and didn't check when we were talking about other things this morning. My fault not his. Really incredibly stupid of me. So blame me for his absence not him.

[Mithalwen]

Though he does seem to have been having problems still.

[Glirdan]

Okay, so before I leave and finish getting read for work, I would like to make a few comment (oh, and forgive me if I tend not to make any sense right now as I'm still experiencing the side effect of my sleeping pills which happens to include groginess and head spinning and the feeling one gets after waking out of an anisthetic):

Originally Posted by Ang

On the whole if I had to bet now I'd go for a triumvirate of Glirdan, Sally and Loslote, so I'd better check if there are any actual relationships between them...

This just doesn't seem right with me and has been bugging me since yesterday (as in the legit day lol). He's throwing all three of us in as Wolves just because, and doesn't really give any reasons why. Well, he gives his theories on Lottie. But he argues against there being a Sally Wolf and gives the shortes, and most very odd suspcions of me stating it could be Wolfish, when I had give a clear explanation that I though Wilwa inncoent due to meta-reasoning.

Okay, that's all I can really touch on right now as I'm pressing short for time and have to go to work. Be back on later.

EDIT: Xed with Mith. By the was Mith, not just him. Seems the Finns are still having troubles.

[Anguirel]

To my astonishment, this thing has just started working for me again. I'm going to vote now in case I can't later, technically or indeed in terms of willpower. My primary suspicion of Loslote remains unaltered.

Nerwen, you make a fair point...my initial, tentative triumvirate is indeed more probably wrong than right, as events have indicated. I think a two-sided alliance between Loslote and Glirdan is unlikely, as I intimated above in my Marlene Dietrich werewolf movie scene. How would Loslote have such full confidence in her defence of a useful ally? Yup, by knowing he's innocent because she's not. I know this is what I suggested about Glirdan himself and Wilwa earlier. This time it is much more valid; as Glirdan himself pointed out in his case I quite unsportingly made use of a sentiment that was semi-above-game.

Loslote, on the other hand, calmly, securely and fully "within-universe", is I believe ingratiating herself with someone she knows is innocent. I don't think her less substantive defence of sally, on the other hand, rules them out as allies. It is empty, neither one thing not the other, a mental shrug designed to shake off interest in sally just as a wolf partner might wish.

I remain for the moment fairly attracted to my shiniest, newest theory that elron is the third wolf. I note that Nerwen and phantom seem attracted to that theory too, and, naturally, that terrifies me.

But, for the moment, and indeed the Day

++LOSLOTE

I quite earnestly think this is a sensible choice, and I exhort anyone who, in that rare combination, trusts my heart and rates my head, to join me in it

[Anguirel]

Glirdan, you have little reason to believe me, I know. But when I construct a theory, I do in large part as a little inquisitorial experiment. It's largely about how seeing people react to suspicion. As far as I can see you passed the test (Loslote flunked and sally skived the date of the exam).

And ironically now the more you doggedly suspect me the more you will conform to my pattern of innocence

kind of like the thing about Illuvatar and Melkor, but simultaneously less cosmic and more positive

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I didn't mean to tie the vote there yesterDay, and I did make a rather odd face there (something along the lines of o.O, only more so), but Glorfy's save sort of evened out the numbers a teensy bit. I consider it a good exchange, really - someone who could have been a wolf was killed instead of someone who couldn't have. So, all in all, I'm a lot less head-bang-y than I was at the end of yesterDay.

The fact that Glorfindel stopped the wolves kill, doesn't take away the dubious double-lynch. All Glorfindel did was negate the screw up. A good save by Glorfy, doesn't make a bad lynch suddenly a good one. The double-lynch and Glorfy's save are not related, it was still a bad lynch.

A double-lynch is never good, unless both Lommy and Nessa turn up as wolves, or some sort of wolf/cobbler duo. You can't whitewash over the double-lynch as no "biggie", simply because Glorfindel corrected the screw up. Sorry, not going to work.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

On the other hand, it is frustrating to be left in the dark as we are now, and in fact we are quite handicapped by having no wolvish connections to trace. But Boro's breathless enthusiasm for the whole thing is starting to worry me.

Yeah, not enthusiastic about having to come down and be such a stiff, shouting orders.

I mean I considered just saying..."Dead peeps. Listen to me. Check Nessa. I want to know both identities of the double lynch." However, what good would that do? One, I'm not sure how trustworthy I am to the dead people to even listen. And two, we would be left debating in this thread whether they listened to me or not, and that would get us no where.

Look, the fact is, Agan and Shasta are known innocents. The type of players they are, they will both be cracking their whips in the dead thread to help us. They have no reason to lead us astray by telling us how they can give us information and then just not do it. Now we've got to do our part, by telling the dead what we want, so they can continue giving info.

The only way to do this is to not debate in circles about it, or hold it off until later like phantom wanted. But by getting a method that tells the dead what we want, and also leaves us a clear trail of "ok this is who the dead would have checked. If wolf they're going to give extra vote odd, if not-wolf even."

I won't talk about this anymore. I've said what I wanted to do. Agree with it or don't, doesn't matter to me.

Dead. Please Check Nessa

Lottie and phantom are topping my suspect list. I think that was an orchestrated double-lynch. And both of their attempts to pass it off as no big deal, with Lottie's "see it was a good exchange, because of Glorfindel!" Not going to convince me a double-lynch is a good exchange.

Also with phantom, his post on Glorfindel reeks of standard evil planning phantom. It looks like a good thing, hey Glorfindel tell us who you are and who you saved. We can know two innocents, the wolves will go after you and with all your protections, and returning from death you can give us all these extra days. Looks shiny, yes?

Come on phantom, what that post just did was lay out plainly to the wolves why Glorfindel is more powerful if he's killed. Whoever Glorfindel protected is going to be dead, and wouldn't it just be oh so great to the wolves who know who Glorfindel is now? In which event, they don't kill him, so he doesn't have the chance to go to the dead thread, bring us lots of possibly valuable info, as well as come back with 2 protections. That's the flaw in your plan for Glorfindel revealing, you are trying to pass off the assumption the wolves would automatically be forced to kill him if he's revealed. When you know as well as I do, right now Glorfindel is a normal ranger, and wolf packs can work around normal rangers (even if they didn't yesterday).

He's much more dangerous hidden, since he can come back more powerful when and if he's killed. If he's no longer hidden, you make it sound like the wolves would absolutely have to kill him, and they would not.

[satansaloser2005]

I dislike the double lynch. I dislike Lottie's part in said double lynch. I dislike Ang, and would be happy with lynching either of them toDay. I still dislike Boro, but can't decide between wolf and cobbler for him (am leaning toward the latter right now) so he's not my top priority.

I want to put a pudding in the oven.

I won't be back for a few hours.

[satansaloser2005]

Also....

Dead, please check toDay's lynch.

I'd like to know Lommy's role first, and then we can worry about Nessa.

[the phantom]

Dead- ignore this ridiculous business with us voting on who to check tonight. What you decide to do should be dependent upon the identity of Lommy. If you find her guilty, check our future lynches. If you find her innocent, check Nessa.

All right- now on to other matters.

Originally Posted by Boro

Also with phantom, his post on Glorfindel reeks of standard evil planning phantom. It looks like a good thing, hey Glorfindel tell us who you are and who you saved. We can know two innocents, the wolves will go after you and with all your protections, and returning from death you can give us all these extra days. Looks shiny, yes?

Come on phantom, what that post just did was lay out plainly to the wolves why Glorfindel is more powerful if he's killed. Whoever Glorfindel protected is going to be dead, and wouldn't it just be oh so great to the wolves who know who Glorfindel is now? In which event, they don't kill him, so he doesn't have the chance to go to the dead thread, bring us lots of possibly valuable info, as well as come back with 2 protections. That's the flaw in your plan for Glorfindel revealing, you are trying to pass off the assumption the wolves would automatically be forced to kill him if he's revealed. When you know as well as I do, right now Glorfindel is a normal ranger, and wolf packs can work around normal rangers (even if they didn't yesterday).

He's much more dangerous hidden, since he can come back more powerful when and if he's killed. If he's no longer hidden, you make it sound like the wolves would absolutely have to kill him, and they would not.

Is that what you really believe?

A few points worth considering-
1) Glorfy can pretty well clinch the game with a protection or two near the end. When the population is smaller his odds go up and then of course he can reveal his innocence as well as the intended targets and then there is an extremely high certainty of voting correctly.
2) Glorfy provides the only verifiable innocence check in the living thread. The Seer can't prove himself beyond all doubt, and once lynched he's dead. Glorfy on the other hand can give proven testimony, which when you consider that is precisely what we lack in this game set-up makes him quite powerful indeed.

It is perfectly legitimate for the Wolves to consider killing Glorfy consecutive times to be the safest path to victory given those facts, and they'd be much more likely to consider the path if people like you wouldn't try to convince them otherwise! I mean, yeesh, you're the one attempting sabotage here. Keep in mind that if we could've convinced them of the logic in offing Glorfy we would essentially be handing our Seer extra dreams, which was one of the primary points of my plot!

And the other primary point of my plot? Well, there is a chance that Glorfy protected the Seer last night, and if so, I'm thinking the Seer would very much like to know that this is his flippin last day among the living!! This is a HUGE factor. If Glorfy reveals and says "I protected so-and-so" and it's NOT the Seer, the Seer needn't hint at any dreams and can thus stay hidden. But if the protection was the Seer, he can then come right out in plain words with his dream choices.

Plus as I said before, it's 50-50 that Glorfy saved himself, and in that case hiding accomplishes nothing.

But go ahead, Boro, keep yammering. And keep bossing the village into doing pointless things, like the voting in red thing. That is NOT the best solution. The best solution is to leave the Dead open to act according to previous intelligence. Did you suggest the voting alternative in hopes that we will vote not to find out about Nessa? My goodness man, if Nessa turns out to be guilty you will look very bad indeed.

[Rikae]

All this sending of messages has killed all conversation on the dead thread, which displeases me.
Funny thing is, I didn't originally intend to reveal who got the extra votes at all. Maybe I should go back to that plan...

[the phantom]

Moddess- It's not OUR fault they stopped talking!!

I promise, if/when I go to deadland, I will talk my head off! It will be my goal to receive a PM from you reading, "Phantom, please shut it".

[Rikae]

Sure it's your fault.

Where's the fun in voting the way you have been instructed to vote?
I suppose it's my own fault, though, and too late to change the rules now.

[the phantom]

Oh, they can still debate which odd/even person to vote for. It could make a huge difference after all, as perhaps several of the odds or several of the evens are Wolves/Cobblers. It matters greatly which of us here look to be innocent from the perspective of the dead. If I was dead I would be hotly pushing or ruling out one person or another for my vote.

[the phantom]

But I suppose if they won't debate it, we can do that here for them.

Should you have to vote for an even player, please oh please don't give your votes to Boro. He is a rotter and a cad and he's the reason for this massive snowstorm in the US and the hurricane in Australia.

If you have to vote for an odd player, there can be no better decision than a vote for Phantom. He is wise and kind and always brushes his teeth before bed. A model citizen!

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by the phantom

But I suppose if they won't debate it, we can do that here for them.

Should you have to vote for an even player, please oh please don't give your votes to Boro. He is a rotter and a cad and he's the reason for this massive snowstorm in the US and the hurricane in Australia.

If you have to vote for an odd player, there can be no better decision than a vote for Phantom. He is wise and kind and always brushes his teeth before bed. A model citizen!

A model citizen with bad morning breath. If, you know, that matters. It's not necessarily lupine halitosis, but it's still something to consider.

(I do agree on Boro, however. If you give him extra votes, I shall be very put out.)

I can personally assure the dead that I have the innocents' best interest at heart, and that while I'm quiet I'm doing all I can to avenge the deaths of Fea, Shasta, and others. Yes, sir.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I have hands to kiss and babies to shake. I'll catch up again later.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Mith

With Greenie doing her cat thing (wall staring) I would be quite grateful if you don't lynch the only person on my continent who speaks.

Aww, sorry Mith! By the time I was finished with the wall staring my 'Downs had decided not to cooperate.

Originally Posted by Phantom

But go ahead, Boro, keep yammering. And keep bossing the village into doing pointless things, like the voting in red thing. That is NOT the best solution. The best solution is to leave the Dead open to act according to previous intelligence. Did you suggest the voting alternative in hopes that we will vote not to find out about Nessa? My goodness man, if Nessa turns out to be guilty you will look very bad indeed.

I might be really stupid now but didn't Boro say he wanted Nessa checked? Are you suggesting he's trying some reverse psychology or what?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Green

I might be really stupid now but didn't Boro say he wanted Nessa checked? Are you suggesting he's trying some reverse psychology or what?

That is a possibility.

The other possibility is that he already knows Lommy will be found guilty and wishes for the Dead to completely waste their next check on a guiltless Nessa. (I seem to have forgotten to make this other point last time. I meant to.)

Either way I'm prepared to condemn him.

While that may seem ridiculous, I maintain that it was a suggestion that needn't have been made UNLESS he was trying to accomplish something sneaky, whatever it may be.

His answer to this will determine how willing I am to start a campaign against him. His determination to argue with me- I don't know if it's the foolhardy attempt of a Wolf to take away any sway I might have (which means he's bad), or an honest bout of suspicion (which makes him good), or a simple desire to pick a fight with me (which means he's a Cobbler).

[A Little Green]

Again, not including all her points or even coverage of all she said. Too lazy for that.

Day 1

Banter (after most others had moved on); on topic, she says this:

So far I don't think Lottie is causing the good kind of chaos. Her interaction with Shasta seems a bit random to me, even for so early. Might I suggest Wolf Pack PopSicles? It's too early to tell though, so I'll have to look again later. I barely had time to skim, so alas I wasn't able to look at much.

And unless I'm much mistaken that was her only post that Day. No vote.

Day 2

I don't like some of the things I've seen regarding Boro, so he may get my vote, but I also still don't think Lottie is my good little pop. Those are my current choices.

++Boro


I don't have time to consider Nog's revelation right now, but I suspect Boro a bit as it is and I think he'll make a decent "rival" candidate, rather than a possible throwaway on Lottie.

This I find somewhat fishy though she did have very little time. It wouldn't have taken so much more time to type in a few reasons for why Boro is suspicious. Or Lottie, for that matter.

Day 3

Huge rereading project; I will not even try to quote all of that here. She's starting to suspect Ang:

Re: #1. Oh, goodness, no. The only time I’d go for a multiple lynch is if we had a darn good chance of catching a wolf, and even then it could end poorly. What if we lynch two cobblers? They could influence the dead thread and get us pretty much no information whatsoever.

Re: #2. This is actually a good point. Too good, in fact. It’s good to think on wolf tactics, but this seems too much like a wolf planning ahead.

This is making me think that tangy Ang is more like fangy Ang.

And a union of baddies in the dead thread can compromise what little information we can get. Cobblers, special information or not, are perceptive and can do more damage than we often realize.

And that? That just makes me....gah, wolf radar is pinging like mad. If you’re an ordo, you dying will do the village no good. If you’re a wolf, this serves your team a great advantage.

So apparently she's in the "Cobblers are dangerous" camp. Of course an innocent could very well be of that opinion too, but it is very convenient for a wolf if the village is after cobblers rather than them. Be that as it may - I'm not sure I'm following the logic of the last sentence. How would Angwolf's death serve his team a great advantage?

I can’t believe I’m agreeing with Phantom, but our gifteds (at least our ranger) are better undead than unharmed. I’m almost tempted to say that the ranger should come out and be double lynched toDay, but there are too many problems with the plan to even begin to count. If our ranger was brave and selfless, however, I’d totally be up for it. At the same time, however, it would be better to sacrifice the ranger at a later time, so they could bring back the most information possible from the dead thread. Save more people or bring us more information? It’s up to us to decide which is more valuable.

This looks like pressuring Glorfy to come out. I'm not commenting on whether he should, it's his business to evaluate that, but I don't like pressuring Gifted to do this or that.
And starting to suspect Nessa:

This just screams wolf to me, and you can’t convince me otherwise. It’s like she’s concocted the perfect friendly cute useless but hoping to be helpful post. Wolf! Wolf!

This seems too strange as well. “Oh no, look at me, I’m so helpless and don’t know what to do!”

Yes and no. Sorry, dear, but this isn’t so much in the sense-making category. I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think it would work. Wolf kills over cobbler kills, yes, but let’s not plan to keep baddies around just because they’re a lower class of evil.

So yet again bringing up the "Cobblers are dangerous" -point. I don't like the way she's stressing it.

Okieday, time to vote.

++Nessa

She initially struck me as evil, and that impression hasn't changed. Thus, death to her.

Initially? As in, from the start? Only there was no mention of that. Or initially, as in, it was in her posts from the start, but only noticed it now?

Day 4

Anyway, excellent! Now, who's up for killing fAng?

I dislike the double lynch. I dislike Lottie's part in said double lynch. I dislike Ang, and would be happy with lynching either of them toDay. I still dislike Boro, but can't decide between wolf and cobbler for him (am leaning toward the latter right now) so he's not my top priority.


Also....

Dead, please check toDay's lynch.

I'd like to know Lommy's role first, and then we can worry about Nessa.

This sudden indifference about Nessa looks strange to me, after how much she concentrated on her yesterDay. As for Boro - Sally, why do you find him suspicious? I never found an explanation for that.

I can personally assure the dead that I have the innocents' best interest at heart, and that while I'm quiet I'm doing all I can to avenge the deaths of Fea, Shasta, and others. Yes, sir.

I'm curious - is there a reason why you mention Fea of all our beloved corpses? Just a random example, or what? Sorry, I am aware I'm being nit-picky (though I suppose someone has to be now Agan is dead ) but it just caught my eye.

So in sum? I'm finding Sally rather fishy at the moment. Less so if she answers my questions. (Though that depends on the answers actually..) Her Day 2 vote was not given proper reasons for, she's held to that suspect since but still hasn't told why; also, her sudden reluctance at having her dead top suspect's role revealed looks bad to me. I fear I might be reading too much into things though..

Gah. It's late again.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[A Little Green]

That is a possibility.

The other possibility is that he already knows Lommy will be found guilty and wishes for the Dead to completely waste their next check on a guiltless Nessa. (I seem to have forgotten to make this other point last time. I meant to.)

Either way I'm prepared to condemn him.

The reverse psychology idea sounds far-fetched to me. (Yeah, I know, I came up with it myself.) As for the second, it makes sense, assuming both Boro and Lommy are/were wolves (pun intended) - or Bobbler is certain that Lommy was a wolf and Nessa was not. If neither is the case, the logic fails. Speaking of that, you seem pretty certain they both are evil. I still think Lommy probably was, but I'm not at all convinced that Boro is.

[A Little Green]

On another note - it's getting pretty late here, which means I'll have to go soon. I'd have wanted to check at least someone else before doing so, but somehow I was here later than I had expected.


EDIT: Yay, triple post! Or not yay actually, where is everyone?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Greenie

So apparently she's in the "Cobblers are dangerous" camp. Of course an innocent could very well be of that opinion too, but it is very convenient for a wolf if the village is after cobblers rather than them. Be that as it may - I'm not sure I'm following the logic of the last sentence. How would Angwolf's death serve his team a great advantage?

Originally Posted by Greenie

So yet again bringing up the "Cobblers are dangerous" -point. I don't like the way she's stressing it.

If that's all Sally said about it she didn't say much– the only noteworthy thing there is that she seems to have flipped completely on whether said cobblers should be lynched– also the bizarre suggestion that Anguirel is a wolf trying to get lynched on purpose.

Hmmn. I really don't trust Sally this game, but I'm getting a funny vibe from this too– it seems like A Little Green is just chiming in with the earlier "wolves-hunt-cobblers" talk, when, in fact, Sally has also had "wolf" suspects.

The other points are valid enough, though.

EDIT: word left out.

[Nerwen]

STOP PRESS!

BG has turned up in Mandos!

[A Little Green]

Well past bed time once again. I'm going to go with

++ Sally

I know this looks silly, but both my more serious suspects died yesterDay and thus I thought to do some advanced rereading and rethinking toDay. I then got some time issues, resulting in me only having enough time to check Sally who I found fishy. So that's it. I should be able to contribute more toMorrow in case I'm still alive. Good night!


EDIT: x-ed with two Nerwens. Typical. People turn up just as I'm leaving. Also, BG? What?

[satansaloser2005]

Quick note. I never said cobblers were more dangerous than wolves or that we should lynch them instead of wolves. I disagreed with Phantom's "long live the cobblers" idea, and I didn't want us to forget that the cobblers were dangerous (and in fact I think they can do more damage because they appear innocent to the masses, enabling them to wreak havoc).

I do NOT support a campaign to kill cobblers before wolves. I DO approve of the school of thought that cobblers are POTENTIALLY more dangerous than the wolves. There's a difference.

I'll try to get to the rest of Greenie's questions in a bit. My head hurts. >.<

ETA: x'd since Nerwen's #624

[Nerwen]

Hey, Sally, you double-posted.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hey, Sally, you double-posted.

You're imagining things.

(Aka I fixed it. Whoops.)

[Nerwen]

So, I was wondering– does the spirit of Blind Guardian retain whatever allegiance it had in life? Or is she now a neutral party? Moddess?

[Rikae]

Her new role is of the same alignment as her original role.

[Nerwen]

Thank you, O Moddess.

Well, for once we know what the Dead are talking about (without cheating).

[Nerwen]

Speaking of the Dead, who are they supposed to be checking? Nessa? ToDay's lynch? Nessa-only-if-Lommy's-innocent? Or what?

Anyway, I have to go now, so–

++Elra

for looking an awful lot like a wolf-cub.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Speaking of the Dead, who are they supposed to be checking? Nessa? ToDay's lynch? Nessa-only-if-Lommy's-innocent? Or what?

They should check Nessa if Lommy was innocent. That's the best way to turn yesterday's lynch into actual information. I'm going to continue pushing it and assume that the Dead will do it. I mean- why should they honor a vote from us if we vote for them to do something that isn't the best course of action?

I'm going to work on the assumption that our proven innocents (Beren & Luthien) have enough sway down there to make sure everyone falls in line and does what makes the most sense tactically.

Green- nice case there. Hmmm... *looks at Sally*

Originally Posted by Boro

Lottie and phantom are topping my suspect list. I think that was an orchestrated double-lynch. And both of their attempts to pass it off as no big deal, with Lottie's "see it was a good exchange, because of Glorfindel!" Not going to convince me a double-lynch is a good exchange.

Why don't you double-lynch us then?

But really, I'm quite curious which of us you'll feel keen to go for, because as the day wears on I assume you'll need to focus on one or the other. Just a warning- if you choose me, I doubt I'll side with you.

Lottie on the other hand.... It's been days since she's given me a Rep vote. Very suspicious.

[the phantom]

Okay, more seriously now, I will do a Lottie read-over, as I promised earlier that I would (to either Boro or Ang... can't remember which).

*off to read*

[elronds_daughter]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Anyway, I have to go now, so–

++Elra

for looking an awful lot like a wolf-cub.

<sigh> Yes, I know I look awfully suspicious. No, I'm not evil. Though the ones who are are probably smooth enough that I'm buying into whatever they're saying. Trust me, when I'm evil, you'll know. I have no capacity for lying, even in text.

Well, today's been dreadful, so apologies if I'm seeming a bit, er, grumbly. The working parts of my brain have been smashed to tiny bits and scattered thoroughly, so my vote tonight will probably be more than a little on the random side. I'll read through everything and try to comprehend as much as I can before I cast it, though.

(One thing I've noticed so far is that people seem to think Boro has taken his "let's give the Dead suggestions" to the extreme of "we're going to tell the Dead what to do now, and they've got to obey us so we don't get confused and lose". Which in a very brief scan seems to be the case. Which I'm not fond of.......blechh. Must investigate further.)

EDIT: x'ed with Phantoms.

[satansaloser2005]

I have a horrid headache at the moment, and am shaking too badly to type correctly (it took me ages to compose this, lol). I'll be back after a nap but if I don't return I wanted to give a heads up as to my whereabouts. Hopefully I'll be back soon. Thanks for understanding!

~~Sally~~

[the phantom]

REVIEW OF LOTTIE

Day 1 early- Lottie banters. Whatever. She always does. I usually don't put much stock in early banter by serial banterers.
Day 1 later- Lottie makes her first serious post and attempts to appear unconcerned with death and takes a shot at Manwe (our eventual lynch). Nerwen soon after makes a nice point about how Lottie's post curiously assumes the innocence of Nog and Shasta.

Day 2 early- Makes a list. Critical of Lommy and Boro.
Day 2 later- Backs Nogrod. Says Phantom as Cobbler makes Lommy look better, which is odd seeing as a Cobbler has no clue who the Wolves are, so why would a Cobbler attack indicate innocence? Says that leaves her prime suspect at Boro.
Day 2 later still- Continues to defend Nog as best she can (in particular talking with me) but eventually votes against him after Agan's "I'm Luthien!" trap.

Day 3- Ah, I see Lommy actually brought up the same points from Day 2, and Lottie attempts to answer them. Her explanations aren't complete nonsense. I do at least put stock in her assertion that Cobbler is probably ruled out for her. She's either innocent or Wolf. Her comment about Fea not being a strong Seer candidate seems to imply that she's gone over people with a Seer comb, though of course even innocents do that sometimes.
Day 3 later- Says she's okay with offing Lommy or Nessa, but prefers the latter. Moves to a more firm Nessa position. Votes to cause the tie. In her defense it easily could have been a cross-post, but of course if she had been keeping track of who was around and which way they were likely to vote she could've seen it coming.

Day 4 early- Her reaction to Ang placing her in a pack of three is to defend herself and the others. I may be mistaken, but a more innocent reaction would be to fear that you are being tied to Wolves, since they do like to tie themselves to innocent (to bring them down if they happen to fall). I would think an innocent would be a bit more paranoid about that possibility, where as a brilliant Wolfish response might be to appear innocent by defending everyone involved and in the process possibly win over those you are linked to, which goes back to the Wolves linking themselves purposefully with innocents.

After the lynch (both yesterday and today) she seems quite apologetic about causing the double, which might make me more suspicious of her. I mean, she did say that she could see lynching both of them, and she certainly favored Nessa dying and her vote killed Nessa, so why be sorry? I can only assume it's a show for appearances.

So okay, you know what? Going into this reread I really don't think I had much of a bias, but Lottie now is looking quite bad to me.

[the phantom]

Where is everyone?

Well, I have to leave soon. I'll be back for the final hour/hour-and-a-half.

Before I leave, as a final word to the dead regarding how we will interpret tomorrow's bonus vote, I stick by what I said earlier-

Originally Posted by Phantom

Dead- ignore this ridiculous business with us voting on who to check tonight. What you decide to do should be dependent upon the identity of Lommy. If you find her guilty, check our future lynches. If you find her innocent, check Nessa.

We need yesterday's vote to be meaningful, and that is the best way to do it. Go with that unless I am overruled by a considerable majority of others (i.e. everyone) who for some reason wish to decide for themselves between Nessa and today's lynch. I would rather leave the decision in your hands based upon what you found with Lommy.

As far as my intentions towards the living, I'm undecided. After that last readthrough I am quite wary of Lottie, but if she doesn't get any votes it would be pointless for me to go in that direction, in which case... I'm not certain. I would've said Boro before, but as he has been one pushing Lottie I am considering giving him a temporary break and looking elsewhere. Out of Daughter and Sally, the former makes the most sense to me at this time, but I do admit that I haven't given Sally a proper read. If it does come down to those two, I will do my best to make myself more informed before I vote.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by the phantom

In her defense it easily could have been a cross-post, but of course if she had been keeping track of who was around and which way they were likely to vote she could've seen it coming.

It was a cross post. And yeah, I knew it might happen, but I wasn't sure. I said I was planning on voting for Nessa, and after four minutes of nothing since my post asking who was around, voted right at DL. After all, it was that or risk leaving the vote as it was - still a double lynch.

Day 4 early- Her reaction to Ang placing her in a pack of three is to defend herself and the others. I may be mistaken, but a more innocent reaction would be to fear that you are being tied to Wolves, since they do like to tie themselves to innocent (to bring them down if they happen to fall). I would think an innocent would be a bit more paranoid about that possibility, where as a brilliant Wolfish response might be to appear innocent by defending everyone involved and in the process possibly win over those you are linked to, which goes back to the Wolves linking themselves purposefully with innocents.

Nah, I just raised my eyebrows at the fact that Ang's list listed as wolves three people that I very much didn't think of as wolves. I don't think I can remember being tied to a wolf as an innocent...I've seen it happen, yeah, but it's never happened to me personally.

After the lynch (both yesterday and today) she seems quite apologetic about causing the double, which might make me more suspicious of her. I mean, she did say that she could see lynching both of them, and she certainly favored Nessa dying and her vote killed Nessa, so why be sorry? I can only assume it's a show for appearances.

I didn't want a double lynch. Or at least, I didn't want a double lynch that Day. Coupled with the Lovers' deaths, it ended up killing off a lot of people. Boro said something somewhere about how Glorfy's save didn't negate the double lynch, but it does. I'm not bothered by the idea of a double lynch as such. I'm more bothered by losing extreme amounts of people. Glorfy's save evened out the numbers. We lost the same number of players that we would have without either a double lynch or a Glorfy save. But with the double lynch and Glorfy save, both dead people could have been evil. With a Glorfy save and no double lynch, only one of them could have been evil. The other had to be innocent.