What is defined as 'sickness'? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

GaladrieloftheOlden · 04-03-2003, 08:45 PM

I would have searced to see whether there was already a thread like this or not, but I wasn't sure of exactly what words I should type in for that....anyway, here's my question: Tolkien says that Elves can die of a broken heart or be killed, but not fall prey to sickness. What did he mean by sickness? Only things like the common cold and flu and pnenoumia? Do things like poisoning count? Because I am not sure whether poisoning or suffocating because of fumes, etc would go into the catergory of being killed or that of being sick because it's really sort of neither, isn't it?

Edit: Now that I look back on that last sentence, it was slightly run-on, wasn't it? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

Iarwain · 04-03-2003, 09:06 PM

Hm. Well Elves were not prey to poisoning or any kind of acquired ailment. The could be slain in battle or lay down their lives in utter sorrow, but they could not be poisoned or die of any type of bacterial illness. I believe that should be a sufficient explaination.

Iarwain

GaladrieloftheOlden · 04-03-2003, 09:21 PM

Well, that's not quite what I meant. If, for example, an Elf walked through a marsh with poisionous fumes, wouldn't they be the slightest bit harmed, at least? O rcould they just...keep breathing?

Iarwain · 04-03-2003, 09:34 PM

Well, that's quite a scenario. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I can only give you a probable answer, because I doubt that anyone could give you a definite response. The elf would not be affected by the poisonous fumes, but they do need to breath, and therefore there would have to be a sufficient supply of whatever they breath in Middle-Earth in the marsh air for the elf to live there. Others might say that they would be completely unaffected, and I would not argue against them, but that is as good a response as I can provide you. I hope it helps [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] .

Iarwain

Arwen Imladris · 04-03-2003, 09:36 PM

I'm no expert, but I think that if they walked into the flames, it would kill them, but the poison might not. When they fall in battle, it is because vital parts of their body have been destroyed. For example, if they got their head cut off they are not going keep walking around. It also might depend on the poison. If the poison destroyed their heart or stomach or something, they might die. Anyone else any theories, or better yet, some quotes?

Voralphion · 04-03-2003, 11:10 PM

Yes elves could be poisoned. Aredhel the sister of Turgon was killed by poison in the Silmarillion by Eol.

Quote:

But in the evening Aredhel sickened, though the wound had seemed little, and she fell into the darkness, and in the night she died; for the point of the javelin was poisoned, though none knew it until too late.

Birdland · 04-04-2003, 12:26 AM

Quote:

If the poison destroyed their heart or stomach or something, they might die.

Soooo, blood poisoning is out. But Drano or De-Con might do the trick?

Not that I plan to whack an Elf. Just wondering.

Arwen_Evenstar · 04-04-2003, 01:50 AM

Wasn't Celebrian suffering from a poisoned wound that could not be healed in ME? Is that not why she left for the undying lands? By this we know that poison affects elves at the least, do we not?

Lalaith · 04-04-2003, 04:46 AM

Extreme cold could also kill them. Turgon's wife Elenwe died crossing the Helcaraxe.

Afrodal Fenyar · 04-04-2003, 08:24 AM

Well, she could have also fallen to water and drowned.

GaladrieloftheOlden · 04-04-2003, 01:03 PM

But if they didn't need to breathe, how could they drown?

Legolas · 04-04-2003, 02:06 PM

They need to breathe. Dying because of suffocation or wounds would be just like being slain. Same principles.

Lily Bracegirdle · 04-04-2003, 06:23 PM

It's just not as cool to say:

"Elves die only by steel or sorrow... or poison... or drowning... oh, did I mention fire? Or being crushed under a big rock? Or having our heads bitten off by a really big animal? Or..."

[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

-Lily

Birdland · 04-05-2003, 02:37 AM

What about "Whack-An-Elf"? Would that kill them? Or would they just keep popping back up?

How about defenestration? Could you defenestrate an Elf? Or if you threw them off a flet, would that be considered defletastration?

piosenniel · 04-05-2003, 02:54 AM

Only if you keep putting in quarters, Bird.

And remind me never to stand near a window when I'm with you! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

04-03-2003, 08:45 PM	#1
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,611	What is defined as 'sickness'? I would have searced to see whether there was already a thread like this or not, but I wasn't sure of exactly what words I should type in for that....anyway, here's my question: Tolkien says that Elves can die of a broken heart or be killed, but not fall prey to sickness. What did he mean by sickness? Only things like the common cold and flu and pnenoumia? Do things like poisoning count? Because I am not sure whether poisoning or suffocating because of fumes, etc would go into the catergory of being killed or that of being sick because it's really sort of neither, isn't it? Edit: Now that I look back on that last sentence, it was slightly run-on, wasn't it? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ] __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."

04-03-2003, 09:06 PM	#2
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 808	Hm. Well Elves were not prey to poisoning or any kind of acquired ailment. The could be slain in battle or lay down their lives in utter sorrow, but they could not be poisoned or die of any type of bacterial illness. I believe that should be a sufficient explaination. Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

04-03-2003, 09:21 PM	#3
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,611	Well, that's not quite what I meant. If, for example, an Elf walked through a marsh with poisionous fumes, wouldn't they be the slightest bit harmed, at least? O rcould they just...keep breathing? __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."

04-03-2003, 09:34 PM	#4
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 808	Well, that's quite a scenario. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I can only give you a probable answer, because I doubt that anyone could give you a definite response. The elf would not be affected by the poisonous fumes, but they do need to breath, and therefore there would have to be a sufficient supply of whatever they breath in Middle-Earth in the marsh air for the elf to live there. Others might say that they would be completely unaffected, and I would not argue against them, but that is as good a response as I can provide you. I hope it helps [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

04-03-2003, 09:36 PM	#5
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I'm no expert, but I think that if they walked into the flames, it would kill them, but the poison might not. When they fall in battle, it is because vital parts of their body have been destroyed. For example, if they got their head cut off they are not going keep walking around. It also might depend on the poison. If the poison destroyed their heart or stomach or something, they might die. Anyone else any theories, or better yet, some quotes? __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

04-04-2003, 01:50 AM	#8
Arwen_Evenstar Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 206	Wasn't Celebrian suffering from a poisoned wound that could not be healed in ME? Is that not why she left for the undying lands? By this we know that poison affects elves at the least, do we not? __________________ 'I am Agarwaen, Son of Úmarth...'-Túrin Turambar. Arwen_Evenstar

04-04-2003, 04:46 AM	#9
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,876	Extreme cold could also kill them. Turgon's wife Elenwe died crossing the Helcaraxe. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

04-04-2003, 08:24 AM	#10
Afrodal Fenyar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 94	Well, she could have also fallen to water and drowned. __________________ "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" ~Eomer

04-04-2003, 01:03 PM	#11
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,611	But if they didn't need to breathe, how could they drown? __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."

04-04-2003, 02:06 PM	#12
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	They need to breathe. Dying because of suffocation or wounds would be just like being slain. Same principles. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

04-04-2003, 06:23 PM	#13
Lily Bracegirdle Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bree Posts: 210	It's just not as cool to say: "Elves die only by steel or sorrow... or poison... or drowning... oh, did I mention fire? Or being crushed under a big rock? Or having our heads bitten off by a really big animal? Or..." [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] -Lily __________________ "But nay: the praise of the praiseworthy is above all rewards." - Faramir

04-05-2003, 02:37 AM	#14
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	What about "Whack-An-Elf"? Would that kill them? Or would they just keep popping back up? How about defenestration? Could you defenestrate an Elf? Or if you threw them off a flet, would that be considered defletastration?

04-05-2003, 02:54 AM	#15
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,816	Only if you keep putting in quarters, Bird. And remind me never to stand near a window when I'm with you! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.