Riddles in the Downs

[Nerwen]

If I haven't posted a new one by this time tomorrow, someone else can take over. (I just haven't had that much spare time lately, and I am not that great at coming up with riddles anyway.)

[Nerwen]

Okay, here it is!


They call me Red, the scion of Blue,
By name a fish on land,
But I will gladly take from you
The offer of your hand.

[Pervinca Took]

Narya?

[Nerwen]

No. Good reasoning, but not particularly close. The answer is connected with jewellery, mind you, but then, what isn't?

The second line can be read three different ways that are all valid.

[Nerwen]

Hints are available on request...

[Galadriel55]

Ok, a wild guess, but... Carcharoth? Give'm a hand and he bites it off? And he's called the Red Maw.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Ok, a wild guess, but... Carcharoth? Give'm a hand and he bites it off? And he's called the Red Maw.

You've got it!

Can you explain the whole thing, or would you like me to?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You've got it!

Can you explain the whole thing, or would you like me to?

I am very confused by the fish on land. Can you explain?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I am very confused by the fish on land. Can you explain?

Fish (shark) = Carcharodon (the Great White Shark).

or

reverse the shark's nickname, "wolf of the sea" to get "shark on land" = wolf.

or

Carcharoth's other name, Angfauglir = jaws of thirst.


You had to get the type of fish first. I was going to just put "shark", but I actually thought it would be too obvious! It's really hard to know how other people will see things.

"Blue" is less cryptic, referring to Charcaroth's progenitor Draugluin, which means "blue wolf". (Maybe he had blueish fur?)

Over to you!

[Galadriel55]

I got the Draugluin connection but totally missed the sharks. Triple hit in a single line.

Well, here goes.




My lord, what seek you here? You should repent.
I told you once, I told you twice, I told you thrice.
Do you not know overindulgence is a vice?
You act 'gainst common sense and my advice.
The world isn't ready for the task that you attempt,
And none will know what came of you after you went.
Stone I am not, to stone I draw,
And stone is stronger than your arms.

[Nerwen]

Is it the mysterious old man at the Door of the Dead, addressing Baldor, son of Brego?

[Nerwen]

Explanation:

My lord, what seek you here? You should repent.
I told you once, I told you twice, I told you thrice. -"The way is shut," said three times.

Do you not know overindulgence is a vice?
You act 'gainst common sense and my advice. -"A rash vow he spoke, as he drained the horn at that feast..."

The world isn't ready for the task that you attempt, -"It was made by those who are Dead, and the Dead keep it, until the time comes."

And none will know what came of you after you went. -"Baldor, son of Brego, passed the Door and was never seen among men again."

Stone I am not, to stone I draw, -"...he was withered as an old stone. Indeed for stone they took him..."

And stone is stronger than your arms. "... before him stood a stony door closed fast: his finger-bones were clawing at the cracks. A notched and broken sword lay by him, as if he had hewn at the rock in his last despair."

[Galadriel55]

Indeed so! Perfect explanation!

[Nerwen]

Thanks- and don't feel bad that I got it immediately, because I actually didn't- I was thinking along the lines of the "Man in the Moon" ditties at first!

In what I believe is an unprecedented turn of events, I actually have one ready:

The one trapped on a rock;
The beloved sibling lost;
The one who died by fire;
The like-named maiden;
The stern one, hiding grief;
The gold girl waked from sleep;
The monster-slayer
And the faithful warden.

We share these, and a name, but all's not done: I have a son.

[Pervinca Took]

I think lines 3 and 4 might refer to Aerin and Arien?

And maybe line 1 is Maedhros?

Perhaps line 2 is Lalaith/Urwen?

Line 5 could be several people, but Morwen springs to mind.

And the monster-slayer sounds like Turin.

The gold girl could be Nienor/Niniel?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Thanks- and don't feel bad that I got it immediately, because I actually didn't- I was thinking along the lines of the "Man in the Moon" ditties at first!

Speak of overindulgence!

Originally Posted by Nerwen

In what I believe is an unprecedented turn of events, I actually have one ready

Inconceivable!

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

I think lines 3 and 4 might refer to Aerin and Arien?

And maybe line 1 is Maedhros?

Perhaps line 2 is Lalaith/Urwen?

Line 5 could be several people, but Morwen springs to mind.

And the monster-slayer sounds like Turin.

The gold girl could be Nienor/Niniel?

I had much the same thoughts. The faithful warden might be Mablung of Doriath. But who is the speaker with the son?

[Nerwen]

Many of the correct line answers have been identified... but there is a trick to it.

[Huinesoron]

They're all members of the last generations of the House of Hador:

Hurin was held captive by Morgoth.
Lalaith, per Pervinca.
Aerin, per Pervinca.
Rian is a partial anagram of Aerin, and her husband went away only two months after their wedding, so 'maiden' is fairly apt (if not strictly true).
Morwen, per Pervinca again.
Nienor, ditto (she had golden hair).
Turin, once again per Pervinca.
Huor, who guarded Turgon's retreat.

Which makes the speaker Tuor, last of the house of Hador Lorindel - except that, by prophesied fate, he travelled to Gondolin, wed Idril the princess, and had a son, Earendil.

'All is not done', indeed; for even if the line of Elendil ultimately founders and dies out, Earendil still sails the skies as the Evening and Morning Star.

How'd I do?

hS

[Nerwen]

Very well indeed- but that's not the answer. Or rather, it's a lot of the answer- so far, most of the guesses are correct, but as I said there is a "trick" to this riddle, and the identity of the speaker depends on that.

If everyone gets really stuck, I'll supply hints as to the nature of this trick. In the meantime-

"Like-named" doesn't refer to the (no, not necessarily literal) "maiden" having a name similar to the person in the line above her. What it does refer to... is also part of the "trick".

Edit: I think I should also add that your suggestion of Tuor, and the reasoning behind it, is thematically appropriate.

[Pervinca Took]

hS, Nienor also 'woke from sleep' when Turin found her.

[Urwen]

The only other person who was trapped on rock was Maedhros.

[Nerwen]

To help you all out further: six correct answers to the eight lines have been supplied. That's not the whole story, however...

[Pervinca Took]

'All's not done' could refer to Turin's prophesied return to defeat Melkor (who is currently in the Void), making the speaker Hurin or Morwen.

[Nerwen]

Another good answer, but no.

[Urwen]

Hmmmm.....who else has a son from that bunch.....?


Neither of Hurin's children had a song, and Tuor is incorrect. This leaves Huor.

[Huinesoron]

Rian, Morwen, and their kids are all also members of the House of Beor, which could point to something Berenish or Tinuviesque; the issue with that is that there are 3 entries for which no Beorians have been suggested, and Nerwen says that 6 of the names have been correctly guessed.

"Like-named" could indicate being named after someone. Actually my first thought was that all eight people literally 'share... a name', but the only way to pull that off would be to look at the [something]finwes, and we haven't guessed six of them yet.

hS

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Hmmmm.....who else has a son from that bunch.....?


Neither of Hurin's children had a song, and Tuor is incorrect. This leaves Huor.

Ah, but is the speaker "from that bunch"?

[Huinesoron]

I'm now drifting to the Stewards of Minas Tirith, whose names include a lot of the guesses made here: several Hurins - actually there are at least 5 Hurins in the history of Middle-earth - variations on Turin... all right, maybe not 'a lot'.

More seriously, two of the names have to be female - 'maiden' and 'girl'. Finduilas could be the 'like-named maiden', given that she was also given the nickname Faelivrin by her beloved (ie, a name given because of liking...), but that would mean focussing hard on Denethor II and his family, which doesn't include enough of the names to hit the 6/8 requirement.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Is the name just Edain, and what they share death?

Beren has a son: Dior.

(Scrap that. Have just seen hS's version).

[Urwen]

Hurin, Huor, Morwen, and Turin all have their third age counterparts, but that's not six people....


Wait a second. I have another idea.



Hurin
Urwen
Aerin
?
Morwen
?
Turin
?
Huor



I assume that those are the correct ones.



Turgon and Finduilas also have third age counterparts......

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'm now drifting to the Stewards of Minas Tirith, whose names include a lot of the guesses made here: several Hurins - actually there are at least 5 Hurins in the history of Middle-earth - variations on Turin... all right, maybe not 'a lot'.

More seriously, two of the names have to be female - 'maiden' and 'girl'. Finduilas could be the 'like-named maiden', given that she was also given the nickname Faelivrin by her beloved (ie, a name given because of liking...), but that would mean focussing hard on Denethor II and his family, which doesn't include enough of the names to hit the 6/8 requirement.

hS

You're looking in the right place, through the wrong lens.

[Urwen]

I thought that those names, if arranged in a certain way, spell 'Thalion'

[Urwen]

Faramir as the speaker?


Hurin, Morwen, Rian, Turin, Turgon, and Finduilas are all in his ancestry, which counts for six people who share the name with first age characters. He lost Boromir, and he has a son.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Faramir as the speaker?

Yep! Faramir it is. (The son is named as Elboron in unpublished material, but at any rate we know he had descendants, which is the important thing.)

Boromir and Finduilas are correct, but not the others, or rather not for the reasons you're suggesting.

[Urwen]

I believe I edited that post to include my explanation.

[Nerwen]

Yes, and I edited mine to reflect your edit.

So, it's like this, Urwen: you guessed the actual answer, so you get to set the next one- however, you haven't worked out all the reasoning yet. Do you want me to explain it, or would you like to keep guessing?

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, and I edited mine to reflect your edit.

So, it's like this, Urwen: you guessed the actual answer, so you get to set the next one- however, you haven't worked out all the reasoning yet. Do you want me to explain it, or would you like to keep guessing?

I will keep guessing, however, if it's not explained correctly by this time tomorrow, I'll take the riddle.

[Nerwen]

Okay.

Hint: Boromir, obviously, is Faramir's "beloved sibling lost"... but there is no First Age Boromir at all, so...?

[Urwen]

So how about this


Boromir - beloved sibling lost, his name means 'beloved jewel', if I remember correctly


Finduilas - The like-named maiden


Denethor - The one who died in a fire


Eowyn - The golden girl woken from sleep (and she could also be the monster slayer, in case the guess below doesn't work)



Merry - The Monster slayer


The faithful warden - Bergil


The one trapped on rock - Beregond (gond means rock)


The 'stern one hiding grief' could also refer to Denethor.

[Huinesoron]

Well done, Urwen!

Eowyn's grandmother is named Morwen, and I note that Finduilas of Dol Amroth is the younger sister to Ivriniel, which is a name derived from the same source as Faelivrin; what I'm getting at is that Finduilas and her sister were both named for the same person ('like-named').

... okay. If Boromir and Finduilas are correct, that makes 8 (since neither of them had been previously mentioned); so we have the full list somewhere.

Guesses before the 6/8:

• On a rock - Maedhros, Hurin
• Beloved sibling - Lalaith
• Died by fire - Aerin
• Like-named - Arien, Rian (stated to be wrong)
• Stern - Morwen
• Gold - Nienor Niniel
• Monster-slayer - Turin
• Warden - Mablung, Huor

I think #4 has to be Finduilas - we know she's a correct answer, and I don't think she fits anywhere else (plus we don't have a valid answer there). And #2 is confirmed as Boromir (who is named after Boromir, 1st Lord of Ladros, great-grandson of Beor, thank you very much ).

Hurin the Tall was Warden of the Keys during the War of the Ring; Faramir would have known him in his childhood.

hS