Redeeming Faramir

[Dimaldaeon]

Does anyone have any suggestions for how Faramir's character can be redeemed without massive editing of TTT<P>How about, Faramir meets Pippin in Minas Tirith and they have a little heart to heart.<BR>Faramir tells Pippin about how he tried to bring Frodo to Gondor.<BR>Faramir (slightly emotionally) says<BR>"I did it only to, for once, receive my father's praise. For once to step from my brother's shadow."<BR>At this he hastily adds <BR>"Though I bore Boromir no ill will, I deem that my father would rather have his elder son by his side now and myself beneath turf"<P>And if this makes Denethor seem like to much of a bad guy (Oh heaven forbid) then he could really play faramir's bedside scene emotionally.<P>Well what do you think? Do ye have any suggestions for rebuilding Faramir's shattered role.

[HCIsland]

Faramir goes up to Frodo at the end and says, "Sorry about the sword at the throat and all that mate, I wasn't myself that day." <P>H.C.

[The Saucepan Man]

Faramir wakes up in the Houses of Healing and realises that Osgiliath was just a feverish dream ... well, it worked (?!!) in Dallas.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maybe they could keep the story going exactly how it should. You know, have him stern and doubtful before he released Frodo, and showing his gentle nature more afterwards.<P>Kinda like the book huh?

[the mortal elf]

That first suggestion was great! They should definitely do something very similar to that. And who cares if Denethor's portrayed as a bad guy? He is, isn't he? Nutty old guy...

[Gorwingel]

At the end of the story we find out that the man who captured Frodo and Sam was not Faramir at all. But his evil twin, who had locked the nice Faramir in a closet.

[HCIsland]

One thing that struck as I was reading a transcript of the movie. Here's Faramir with two hobbits that he's found that are obviously being less then truthful with him. No matter how nice a guy he was that is bound to p*** him off. One understandable reaction (that I know is different then the book) is to say to yourself, "you guys are going to act like criminals, I'll treat you like criminals until I get some straight answers".<P>I know it doesn't quite work, but it's a thought.<P>H.C.

[Dimannûnien]

How about explaining it all by Faramir finding the horn of Gondor, lost when Boromir's body goes over the falls, and then being in such a state of shock/horror/distress he isn't quite his normal self and treats the poor little hobbits badly.

[dunadan_aragorn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> did it only to, for once, receive my father's praise. For once to step from my brother's shadow."<BR>At this he hastily adds <BR>"Though I bore Boromir no ill will, I deem that my father would rather have his elder son by his side now and myself beneath turf <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OMG! That is so good! Did you come up with that yourself?"

[Lyta_Underhill]

Firstly, I admit it has been a long time since I saw TTT, so please forgive any inconsistencies as the product of a vague memory...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One thing that struck as I was reading a transcript of the movie. Here's Faramir with two hobbits that he's found that are obviously being less then truthful with him. No matter how nice a guy he was that is bound to p*** him off. One understandable reaction (that I know is different then the book) is to say to yourself, "you guys are going to act like criminals, I'll treat you like criminals until I get some straight answers".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>H.C., that is an interesting thought, and this actually is addressed in an article I found online here: <A HREF="http://www.istad.org/tolkien/faramir.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.istad.org/tolkien/faramir.html</A> ; the only problem with this explanation is that it really makes me wonder about Frodo...it sounds like perhaps the characterizations of Faramir and Frodo are both skewed to the bad in these scenes. I can see Faramir being more wary and untrusting when Frodo is acting as insane and irresponsible as he seems to be in the movie.<P>The part I would change is any effort to bring the Ring to Minas Tirith or even an inkling on Faramir's part that the Ring should be brought there. Having him replicate the mistakes of his brother seems to serve no purpose, unless he is supposed to have gotten some sort of insight into why the Ring is dangerous by the horrible things it seems to make Elijah Wood do. Maybe he just gave up and said "Get this crazy hobbit out of here!"<P>But really, to redeem Faramir, one would have to remove his brusqueness and return him back to the noble man he was in the book, the one that commanded respect and the one that respected the well-articulated mission of the hobbits. It takes so long for Faramir to let the hobbits go, because Frodo is too busy chewing scenery and hiding things, too focused on Faramir as "Boromir's brother" rather than as a discrete being (not that Faramir's newfound ideas about taking the Ring to Minas Tirith helped any). So, a changed Faramir in these scenes would necessitate a re-drawing of Frodo as well. The real questions is who is acting and who is reacting? Frodo and Sam are too close and do not answer Faramir's questions; while Faramir is too brusque and he scares the hobbits into withholding information (Frodo's scenery chewing notwithstanding).<P>Well, that's all I can think of right now! This is my first post in the Movie forum, BTW! I'm usually lost in the Books section. Good night all, and don't let the Old Forest get you in your sleep!<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta

[Meela]

He doesn't need redeeming

[Rynoah, the Overly-Happy]

Though I would like to argue with Meela, I have suddenly been hit with a reason as to WHY they made Faramir take Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath. Remember that Faramir was wounded in Osgiliath? What better way to set that up than to make him take the Hobbits there? After all, it would be slightly strange to just have him in the movie for a split second and then suddenly wanting you to care when you find out later in RotK that he was injured in some battle at a city you never saw or heard of before until that moment. I suddenly don't dislike the movie Faramir as much as I did! Ha!<P>A way to redeem himself? Wake up, realize his foolishness and then sweep Éowyn off her feet like so many leaf-blowers, that's what!

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to recognize that Faramir's very different behavior in the movie is caused by the very, very different behavior of Frodo.<P> The difference in Frodo may be explainable if one assumes he's not as old in the movie as he is in the book and this younger, less experienced, Frodo simply doesn't have the mature judgement and insight of his literary counterpart.

[HCIsland]

I still think the central reasons for the changes in Faramir's character were mainly to parallel the tension that was going on in Helm's Deep and Fangorn/Isengard. You couldn't very well have things so dire in Rohan and then cut to Sam asking Faramir to pass the bread. It just doesn't work. I also think they needed to stretch out Frodo and Sam's encounter with Faramir in order to make Faramir someone that the non-book reader will remember in a year's time when they are watching RoTK.<P>Having said that, I like to think there were ways in which the former could have been accomplished without changing Faramir's character to such a degree. <P>As for redemption, there were scenes shot in tunnels that seem likely to be under Osgiliath. I'm hoping this will be Faramir guiding the hobbits out of the city and this will give PJ an opportunity to give us a Faramir we are more used to, just as the gift giving in Lothlorien gave us a more familiar Galadriel. I also think that the Faramir we see in RoTK will be more to our liking as I don't think the same plotting issues exist with that movie as they did with TTT.<P>H.C.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> How about, Faramir meets Pippin in Minas Tirith and they have a little heart to heart. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Apparently, Faramir and Pippin do converse more. I believe Faramir will arrive at Minas Tirith before Pippin has had a chance to meet Denethor and they'll talk about him as well as Sam and Frodo. I think it will work well because it will simultaneously establish a bit of Denethor before we meet him and it combines two meetings with Denethor into one. The less meetings the better in my opinion.<P>H.C.

[davem]

Hey, maybe if they manage to redeem Faramir, they could start on the REAL hard work, redeeming Treebeard & the Ents. Redeeming Gimli, is, sadly, beyond all hope.

[Meela]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Redeeming Gimli, is, sadly, beyond all hope. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>lol!! Whats wrong with Gimli? I like him. Hes quite cute

[HCIsland]

I gotta agree. I know there was the extra comedy, but any changes to Gimli (good or bad) pale in comparison to Faramir, Aragorn or Frodo.<P>And I liked Treebeard in TTT and likely the thing I'm looking forward to the most with the special edition is seeing more of him and Merry and Pippin in Fangorn. I better not be disappointed on this count. <P>I'm sure you are referring to the result of the entmoot. I think this was a device to get us to see the destruction of the forest and Treebeard's reaction to it. To make it very clear to the viewer that this is the reason the Ents are going to war (which it was). <P>One can certainly make the argument that it would seem odd Treebeard not having known about this before but all in all, in my opinion, it worked.<P>H.C.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> One thing that struck as I was reading a transcript of the movie. Here's Faramir with two hobbits that he's found that are obviously being less then truthful with him. No matter how nice a guy he was that is bound to p*** him off. One understandable reaction (that I know is different then the book) is to say to yourself, "you guys are going to act like criminals, I'll treat you like criminals until I get some straight answers". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> He doesnt need redeeming <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with both of you First of all, a really nice guy like Faramir in the book is pretty rare, and I thought that the movie Faramir was really good. And, I think that he should get nicer in the second movie, and the scene where Denethor is telling him he liked Boromir more, and the one where he is brought back and Denethor cries over him ought to be so sad that we'll all feel sorry for saying Faramir wasn't any good. <BR>Edit: Happy 333rd post to me! I like that number... <p>[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[davem]

Sorry, but Gimli was always one of my favorite characters, & they turned him into comic relief. <BR>Also, where was the sadness, wisdom & tragedy of the Ents?. They came over as stupid, lumbering idiots, outsmarted by a couple of (in the movie) idiot hobbits.

[Meela]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Also, where was the sadness, wisdom & tragedy of the Ents?. They came over as stupid, lumbering idiots, outsmarted by a couple of (in the movie) idiot hobbits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>i thought they were quite good. I burst into tears when they started marching on Isengard. That was really sad, the way they talked about going to their doom.<P>(but it might just be me. i mean, i cry at anything. heck, i cried when wormtongue got thrown down the steps at edoras! but i adore him so it makes sense.)

[Scott]

I was thinking...<P>They could easily redeem Faramir if they showed a scene where Gollum, Frodo, and Sam are fleeing from Osgiliath. Seeing that a band of Mordor orcs are hot on their trail, Faramir and a few of his most loyal warriors rally to head off the orcs. Just as Faramir is wounded in battle the camera pans out and Frodo and friends disappear into the woods.<P>Well, ok, so it sounds a lot like what happened to Boromir, but I've always been a fan of paralell structure!

[davem]

Meela, I take it you've read LotR, or I can't see why you would have cried at the Ents marching towards Isengard, As there was nothing in the movie that would make anyone care about the Ents. <BR>And Gimli is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE CUTE!!!!!!!!. He is a proud warrior from an ancient people, who undergoes a profound & beautiful transformation when he falls in love with Galadriel, & effectively becomes her 'knight', a la the Arthurian legends. I'd just like to see you tell him he's 'cute' to his face, that's all!

[Meela]

I haven't read Lotr. Blame the music it made me cry at a lot of TTT. <P>No... don't blame the music. It was a moving scene.

[HCIsland]

I liked the Ents and I've read the book several times. There's only so much you can do in a film with so much going on.<P>I'm looking forward to more Treebeard in the Special Edition. Apparently we will be getting entdraught and, according to Billy Boyd, Treebeard reciting really bad poetry.<P>H.C.

[Estella Brandybuck]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>At the end of the story we find out that the man who captured Frodo and Sam was not Faramir at all. But his evil twin, who had locked the nice Faramir in a closet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, someone else shares my theory! <P>I understand why PJ & Co. wrote Faramir the way they did. I don't like it, but I understand it. They wanted to keep the tension up, and I guess they felt that he wasn't a very realistic character. What I don't understand is why they felt they had to turn him into Boromir v2.0. I've always seen the brothers as very different people - one is war-loving and ambitious, the other is gentle and intelligent. Movie-Faramir didn't seem like that at all to me. I thought he was a bit crass and almost cruel at times. In the book, Faramir's men comment on how he doesn't like for them to harm any living creature, and yet in the movie he lets them drag poor Gollum all the way to Osgiliath on a leash. I don't mind deviations from the book as long as they're in moderation, but what they did to Faramir was just a bit too extreme for my tastes.<P>That being said, I have high hopes for Faramir in RotK. Mainly because I have a lot of faith in David Wenham to portray the character the way (I feel) he should be shown. There are times in TTT where you can see that shrewdness in his eyes that Faramir posesses in the books (one example is that look he has at the Forbidden Pool - just something about it made it seem to me that Faramir could be a clever guy when he wanted to be).<P>Redeeming him? I like the ideas that have been stated before, mainly a conversation between him and Pippin. (After all, we know that Pippin is really fond of Faramir, since he named his son after him, so might as well establish that early on. ) And I for one will be very willing to forgive everything I thought was wrong about TTT if they just put in as much of the Éowyn/Faramir relationship as possible. Again, I think that Wenham (and Miranda Otto, of course) could pull that off very well if given the chance.<P>That's all from the peanut gallery...

[Tinuviel87]

I agree with basically everything HC said and I do love the idea of Faramir leading them out of Osgiliath...however there is one little problem... at the end of TTT Sam, Frodo, and Gollum have <B>already left</B>Osgiliath...so that scene where Faramit sets them free is all we are gonna get. But I still loved the movie... the Ents were great even though they weren't portrayed to their full majesty, I still loved them. I mean, it isn't possible to make the movies with exact canon... it just wouldn't work. So I am accepting the movies as they are... because you all know that no matter how many things we find to complain about we will still see RotK about 65 times

[davem]

HCIsland, I suppose what Billy Boyd has to say about Treebeard reciting some 'really bad poetry' is another example of the screenwriters thinking they can do better than Tolkien, & its one of their verses. If he was referring to some of Tolkien's original verse from the book, then he must be as dumb as the character he plays in the movie.

[HCIsland]

Please ... <P>I have no idea to what he is refering. If I were to guess it would be some variation (or perhaps the exact words) of the poem regarding the different peoples of Middle Earth and how Hobbits should be included as that is a scene out of the book.<P>Billy Boyd is a card. He said it with a smile on his face. What he actually meant by it could be anything.<P>To me it sounds like a fun scene.<P>H.C.

[Kalimac]

It sounds like Billy Boyd was saying that with tongue in cheek.<P>For redeeming Faramir - how about starting off ROTK the same way as they did TTT - have Faramir say "The Ring will go to Osgiliath", then have Frodo wake up with a gasp. It was all a dream! "Sam, we didn't go to Osgiliath, did we?" "What are you talking about, Mr. Frodo? Faramir cut us loose more than a week ago, why would he take us there?"<P>Seriously; probably the best way is (1) splice in a scene or two into the TTT DVD where Faramir refers to the death-penalty-if-captives-released clause, also says a sentence or two more about his father's tremendous power etc. (2) in ROTK, have Faramir behave the way he does in the book, with a minor explanation like was provided at the start of this thread. "My wish to please my father led me astray. But I have repented." "OK, that's good. Now, forward the Horse Brigade!"

[davem]

HCSIland, yeah, sorry. I just get very annoyed with the way Tolkien's work is messed around with by the filmakers. Tolkien's poetry is never 'very bad' & some of it is very, very good.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If he (Billy Boyd) was referring to some of Tolkien's original verse from the book, then he must be as dumb as the character he plays in the movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>davem, do you really think that Pippin is a dumb character? He certainly comes off as airheaded and inattentive, but not dumb! I know M & P have been relegated in many instances to comic relief in the films, and this probably causes people to look at them as if they were less-than-bright as characters (Pippin in particular suffers this injustice), but I wonder how many people write off the Tolkien versions of M & P as dumb because of it?<P>On a different note, I certainly would love to see a scene between Pippin and Faramir to establish the bond between those two, and the bond would be strengthened when Pippin becomes instrumental in saving Faramir from Denethor's madness. I like your suggestion, HCIsland, that Pippin and Faramir meet and discuss Denethor and Frodo and Sam before Pippin's first meeting with Denethor; I fear that Denethor's subtleties will be lost in the movie version of necessity, but this will create a bond between Pippin and Faramir that will be followable as a thematic thread. Of course, I can see an emotional scene with Pippin offering his sword to Denethor, remembering Boromir the Brave not only by his relationship to Denethor and Gondor, but by his relationship with Faramir (and by extension the hope for Frodo and Sam and the quest)--a profound deepening of the seriousness of Pippin's oath. I do like to turn my views in favor of the development of my favorites! Ah, but I do read the story like Billy Boyd does, don't I? It's all about Pippin and some other people!<P>Now, I've got to think of something to do with Frodo before he chews all the scenery! Night all!<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta

[davem]

Lyta, Tolkien's Pipin is <I>not</I> dumb, but Jackson's Pippin is. M & P in the movies are interchangeable idiots, who are frankly irritating. Its literally a case of 'dumb & dumber', & then Jackson has them outsmarting Treebeard!!!, one of the wisest being in Middle Earth.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Ah, thanks davem! I do wonder if those people who have never read the book will prejudge Merry and Pippin when they do read about them...but if they read closely, they will be pleasantly surprised! Maybe even inspired! I read the books many years ago and then, after about 13 years in between, I recently read them again. My favorite character had been Sam the first time around, and the latest time around it is a tug-of-war between Pippin and Frodo. I suppose I am really a hobbit-fancier! <P>I suppose I can see ways out of the hole dug for Faramir in PJ's TTT, but I'm looking about for loopholes for poor Frodo, and all I can see is more depressing madness! I suppose that is one aspect of Frodo you can't get away from, but I do miss the noble, well-spoken Frodo who mirrored the noble, well-spoken Faramir--those chapters in TTT were some of my favorites, giving me a much deeper respect for both characters and giving me hope in mutual respect, a sort of meeting of soldiers on the battlefield before they both plunge into very different but equally hopeless battles. It is a meeting of minds, an almost tragic, but resolute affirmation of the quality of the nobility of the struggle, the very thing that makes me believe in Frodo beyond all hope. I am also touched that, when Frodo sees the armies of Mordor emptying out of the land, his first thought is for Faramir, and there is always this connection that is beyond words. The finely woven scenes between those two in Henneth Annun are all screwed up in the movie as I recall, on both sides, and I do believe that the "nobility" factor has been lost from Frodo and Faramir here. It is a shame.<P>Well, back to your regularly scheduled madness!<P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

[HCIsland]

I don't see a way out for Frodo either. Frodo is the central character and so, for good or ill, the Frodo we are getting is the Frodo PJ wanted to portray. As a minor character, Faramir's development was secondary to developing plot when it came to making the theatrical Two Towers work. I suspect Faramir got cut to shreads in the editing room, which means that the Faramir that came across may not be quite the Faramir that was originally intended. That is why I think the Special Edition and RotK will give us a Faramir that is more familiar to us.<P>H.C.<p>[ April 05, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Estella Brandybuck]

I agree with everything Lyta and HC said about Pippin, Frodo, and Faramir...<P>But I know I'll love Extended Edition Faramir if this one rumor that I heard is true:<P>Supposedly, there's a scene after the battle in Ithilien where Faramir has a beautiful monologue wondering about one of the fallen Southrons (Easterlings?). I can't remember everything about it, but it was very similar to what Sam was thinking in the book while watching the battle take place (Was he forced to fight? Did he have family? That kind of thing).<P>I hope hope hope that's true...<p>[ April 06, 2003: Message edited by: Estella Brandybuck ]

[GlingleglingleglingleFairy]

At first I was p****d off when Faramir did the whole 'bad' thing, but I think he redeemed himself pretty well by actually letting Frodo go. As for Gimli, I don't think people would have understood his 'transformation' after meeting Galadriel, the comic relief was easier. As for Merry and Pippin, they are supposed to be, at first, young and irresponsible and I do imagine them to be funny. I just hope PJ doesn't make them hysterically funny in RotK.

[HCIsland]

Pippin does and says some pretty stupid things in the books too. My favourite is when Gandalf is reading him the riot act before they go to meet Denethor and say for goodness sake don't mention that the King is coming to supplant him.<P>"King?", replies Pippin. This is after traveling for months with Aragorn.<P>No, not the sharpest arrow in the quiver.<P>H.C.