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03-25-2021, 10:55 AM | #1 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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The Dead and The Undead
As I mentioned in other topics I've been doing another reading of the books and recently finished Lord of the Rings. Next on my Tolkien stack is The Silmarillion (which actually might prompt some more thoughts on what this thread is about).
And this thread is generally about death, as in Men's fear of their own mortality in the Tolkienverse. Also about the Dead (Men of Dunharrow, the Dead Marshes) and the Undead (The Ringwraiths). What prompted this originally is just trying to do a compare/contrast to the Dead Men of Dunharrow, the Ringwraiths, and how do the Barrow-wights fit into this whole dead and the undead. I think the Men of Dunharrow are exactly what they're called, they are indeed dead. Spirits, bound to not be at rest because of their broken oath. Which is I think interesting considering the theme of Men's fear of death. Even if their blades no longer have any "bite" (Gimli makes a comment about this), few of the living could endure them, because it's like being confronted by their own mortality, literally staring into the face of their "Death." But how do the "spirits" (for lack of a better identification) in the Dead Marshes fit in here? The Men of Dunharrow are bound by an oath. What about the "dead faces" Gollum describes: Quote:
Generally, this definition I think fits the Ringwraiths...they should be dead, but are not because they can still physically interact with the living (much different from the Oathbreakers and the spirits in the dead marshes). Indeed they are kept animated by their Rings of Powers, which gave their bearers immortality...or did it? I think Bilbo's description of the Ring's effects on him are brilliant because it gives a simple understanding of what the Ring does. Bilbo comments that he feels "stretched," and this is a great description because despite living longer, it's not prolonging Bilbo's life, not really. Gollum is actually a better example, because Bilbo despite being very old for a hobbit, is still physically possible in Tolkien's story. Gollum, on the other hand has to be close to 600 years old and that is not possible for someone akin to hobbits. For simplicity, let's just say an expected lifespan for Gollum if he never came across the ring would be 100 years. What the Ring does to him, I would say is take that same expected lifespan of 100 years and "stretches" it over a time span of 600 years, thousands of years...etc. It's a perversion of immortality. Which this all leads to I guess my major question...is Gollum "undead?" That is if the Ringwraiths are kept animate merely because of the Rings, and when the Ring is destroyed the Ringwraiths pretty much fizzled out: Quote:
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03-26-2021, 12:12 AM | #2 |
Haunting Spirit
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Gollum maintains a physical body throughout. Not quite undead yet in my book.
Sorry for low quality post, just wanted to remember this thread. |
03-26-2021, 03:12 AM | #3 | ||||||||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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I feel like the Nazgul were still somewhat corporeal - they can sit on horses, and their cloaks stay up - even if not visible. But as Soriman indicates, they were also not fully embodied. They survive being swept down a raging river, which isn't plausible for humans. Gollum, on the other hand, feels like he could still be injured; the Ring had extended his lifespan, but not turned him into something new. The OED actually quotes a Tolkien-related source on this: P. H. Kocher's 1973 Master of Middle-Earth: Quote:
And what about the Barrow-Wights? My understanding is they're spirits (of the dead? Maiar or other unembodied?) sent by the Witch-King to possess the bodies of the fallen Cardolan royalty. Since they are making use of flesh (or just bones? I've always understood the 'long arm' to have skin and so on, but the fact that the hand 'broke off' might imply something more brittle), are they undead? Or are they just dead and making use of handy corpses? hS |
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03-26-2021, 07:50 AM | #4 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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I think there can be connection drawn between the Ring sustaining Gollum and the Ringwraiths physical forms, but I agree with the point that Gollum could still be injured by ways that don't involve the destruction of the Ring. Therefor he has living flesh, he can "starve" as he often says to Frodo and Sam. What sparked me originally thinking wait is Gollum "undead" was more than his connection and being sustained by the Ring, but also his strange attraction to dead things. He tells Frodo and Sam he tried to reach the dead apparitions in the marshes at one time, but he could not reach them, could not touch them. And I don't know about you but if I see strange dead faces floating in marshes my first reaction is not "oh let me just dive in there and try to grab it." I'd go as far to speculate that had Gollum seen the Dead Men of Dunharrow he would not have fled. So, Gollum appears to be in this odd category all by himself, not undead, but sustained by the Ring, and attraction to strange moistened faces lyin' in marshes.
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Last edited by Boromir88; 03-26-2021 at 08:08 AM. |
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03-26-2021, 10:34 AM | #5 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,314
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To add a bit to this discussion, I am linking an old thread (which, in turn, links another even older one) that touches upon some of these issues. I certainly am not doing this to discourage discussion, but rather to add more ammunition.
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ght=necromancy I agree that Gollum and the Nazgul were not "dead," however the Nazgul may be where Gollum would have ended up, after being "stretched too thin." Then again, this may not be true because Gollum no longer had the Ring (but of course the Nine were "held" by Sauron so maybe the Wraiths didn't "have" their Rings). Nor was Gollum "undead." But the Nazgul, notwithstanding JRRT's characterization? The Dead of Dunharrow were, obviously dead, as was Gorlim. How their shades remain, considering the Doom of Men, is an open question. When we reach the Barrow-Wights, we touch upon the Necromancy thread linked above. Maybe a correct description would be dead but inhabited? I hope that this encourages some more brainstorming.
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03-26-2021, 04:36 PM | #6 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Thank you for the link (and the link in the thread you linked), Mithadan. I think they will do exactly what you intend, and spark more discussion. Necromancy is certainly linked to a topic about the dead and the undead.
I was intrigued by the comment, in one of the threads, about Isildur and his heirs (Aragorn) being able to use weapons of Sauron (the Dead of Dunharrow) against him. I don't recall reading any character making that comment, but Aragorn is able to command the spirits of the oath-breakers. I don't think we could call Isildur or Aragorn necromancers, but it is an interesting point in perhaps understanding the power Aragorn had to "summon the dead to fight." Looking at the words of Isildur's curse is interesting: Quote:
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Last edited by Boromir88; 03-26-2021 at 04:41 PM. |
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