Melkor - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

anduin angel 44 · 01-04-2003, 11:52 AM

Is there any way for Melkor to die or be defeated?

[ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

Maylin · 01-04-2003, 12:43 PM

I'm not sure but I think he already was defeated. ( thinks back to when she read the silmarilion) I'm ust guessing now, but I think Sauon, Melkor's servent took over. Though I'm not sure really what happened to him, since he was a Vala....(ponders)

I think there would probably be another topic on this somewhere, though I don't know, I'm fairly new myself.

[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: Maylin ]

the phantom · 01-04-2003, 02:40 PM

Melkor is pretty much defeated when he's locked up in the void. But at the end of the world he's going to escape and fight again, but Turin (the coolest guy ever) is going to kill him with his magic black sword, and that's the end of Melkor.

Mandos · 01-04-2003, 06:35 PM

well that'a a colorful discription of it, but i do wonder if Gurthang could kill an immortal Vala.

Manwe Sulimo · 01-04-2003, 07:09 PM

Obviously, since Tolkien wrote it.

LOTR_know-it-all55 · 01-04-2003, 10:30 PM

Exactly. What Tolkien says goes.

Mandos · 01-04-2003, 10:40 PM

I was not debating anything! I was simply pondering what is so special about Gurthang to set it apart from all the other swords to make this one the only one to kill Morgoth. And my goodness , people do enjoy echoing each other !

LOTR_know-it-all55 · 01-04-2003, 10:57 PM

im sorry if echoing bothered you sooo much I was merely agreeing with the aforementioned statement

zacattack · 01-04-2003, 11:22 PM

There is absolutely no way that Melkor or any other Valar can be killed,they can be defeated,sorta,but never killed.

the phantom · 01-05-2003, 11:07 PM

Being Valar doesn't put them in a different class than Maia, it's merely denoting their position, or their job. Both Valar and Maia are considered Ainu, that's their race. We know that the Valar are Ainu. We also know that Ainu can be killed (balrogs). Therefore one of the Valar could be killed also.

If a being becomes too attached to its incarnate form, then it can be slain. Sauron didn't die when his body was destroyed because he had the ring to anchor him to the world. Balrogs had no such anchor to bring them back, so when the physical bodies they bound themselves to were stabbed, smashed, or somehow killed, then their spirits die.

Apparantly Melkor becomes a little too attached to his physical incarnation and is open to being killed. Plus, remember that Gurthang was a magic sword (it actually talked once, so it has some sort of extra spiritual power), and it was said at its forging that nothing it bit could live. That would include Melkor.

[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]

Mandos · 01-05-2003, 11:13 PM

Balrogs were lesser Ainur than the Valar, they were Miaar (so not as powerful ). Also, Gandalf's sword, Glamdring, was "magical" too, why not it?

the witch king · 01-10-2003, 05:34 PM

but shurely melkors spirit could remain impotant but still there?

Legolas · 01-11-2003, 12:51 AM

Gandalf's sword was not "magical" but balrogs were evil spirits. Such evil spirits were tied to their physical incarnations. This is why Melkor was wounded by Fingolfin, why Glorfindel, Ecthelion, and Gandalf were able to kill their balrogs, why Elendil/Gil-galad were able to kill Sauron, why Saruman died the way he did, etc., etc.

Also, you guys skipped over the part where it says that Morgoth, in doing so many things, had spread himself too thin, thus weakening his central being by putting part of himself into each of his evil projects.

[ January 11, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ]

the phantom · 01-11-2003, 01:02 AM

Actually, Mandos, a Maia (eg balrog) is not necessarily less powerful than one of the Valar. Valar and Maia were not titles designating power, just jobs.
(there's a great thead in the books called Ealur and Incarnation if you want more explanation)

01-04-2003, 11:52 AM	#1
anduin angel 44 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: somewhere outside of the lord of the rings world Posts: 17	Melkor Is there any way for Melkor to die or be defeated? [ January 07, 2003: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ] __________________ i looked at you 1000 times but this time when i looked at you there was something new how could i be so blind

01-04-2003, 12:43 PM	#2
Maylin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mordor ( or school, same thing) Posts: 81	I'm not sure but I think he already was defeated. ( thinks back to when she read the silmarilion) I'm ust guessing now, but I think Sauon, Melkor's servent took over. Though I'm not sure really what happened to him, since he was a Vala....(ponders) I think there would probably be another topic on this somewhere, though I don't know, I'm fairly new myself. [ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: Maylin ] __________________ You feel an overwhelming urge to click here

01-04-2003, 02:40 PM	#3
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Melkor is pretty much defeated when he's locked up in the void. But at the end of the world he's going to escape and fight again, but Turin (the coolest guy ever) is going to kill him with his magic black sword, and that's the end of Melkor. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

01-04-2003, 06:35 PM	#4
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	well that'a a colorful discription of it, but i do wonder if Gurthang could kill an immortal Vala. __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-04-2003, 07:09 PM	#5
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Obviously, since Tolkien wrote it. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

01-04-2003, 10:30 PM	#6
LOTR_know-it-all55 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Meduseld Posts: 46	Exactly. What Tolkien says goes. __________________ Legolas Greenleaf, long under tree in joy thou hast lived.Beware of the Sea! If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore, thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.

01-04-2003, 10:40 PM	#7
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	I was not debating anything! I was simply pondering what is so special about Gurthang to set it apart from all the other swords to make this one the only one to kill Morgoth. And my goodness , people do enjoy echoing each other ! __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-04-2003, 10:57 PM	#8
LOTR_know-it-all55 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Meduseld Posts: 46	im sorry if echoing bothered you sooo much I was merely agreeing with the aforementioned statement __________________ Legolas Greenleaf, long under tree in joy thou hast lived.Beware of the Sea! If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore, thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.

01-04-2003, 11:22 PM	#9
zacattack Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Angband Posts: 70	There is absolutely no way that Melkor or any other Valar can be killed,they can be defeated,sorta,but never killed. __________________ "The dwarf breathes so loud we could have shot him in the dark "What an excellent spot I choose"-Gimli "Would you like me to describe it to you or just fetch for a box"-Legolas

01-05-2003, 11:07 PM	#10
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Being Valar doesn't put them in a different class than Maia, it's merely denoting their position, or their job. Both Valar and Maia are considered Ainu, that's their race. We know that the Valar are Ainu. We also know that Ainu can be killed (balrogs). Therefore one of the Valar could be killed also. If a being becomes too attached to its incarnate form, then it can be slain. Sauron didn't die when his body was destroyed because he had the ring to anchor him to the world. Balrogs had no such anchor to bring them back, so when the physical bodies they bound themselves to were stabbed, smashed, or somehow killed, then their spirits die. Apparantly Melkor becomes a little too attached to his physical incarnation and is open to being killed. Plus, remember that Gurthang was a magic sword (it actually talked once, so it has some sort of extra spiritual power), and it was said at its forging that nothing it bit could live. That would include Melkor. [ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ] __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

01-05-2003, 11:13 PM	#11
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	Balrogs were lesser Ainur than the Valar, they were Miaar (so not as powerful ). Also, Gandalf's sword, Glamdring, was "magical" too, why not it? __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-10-2003, 05:34 PM	#12
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	but shurely melkors spirit could remain impotant but still there? __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

01-11-2003, 12:51 AM	#13
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Gandalf's sword was not "magical" but balrogs were evil spirits. Such evil spirits were tied to their physical incarnations. This is why Melkor was wounded by Fingolfin, why Glorfindel, Ecthelion, and Gandalf were able to kill their balrogs, why Elendil/Gil-galad were able to kill Sauron, why Saruman died the way he did, etc., etc. Also, you guys skipped over the part where it says that Morgoth, in doing so many things, had spread himself too thin, thus weakening his central being by putting part of himself into each of his evil projects. [ January 11, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

01-11-2003, 01:02 AM	#14
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Actually, Mandos, a Maia (eg balrog) is not necessarily less powerful than one of the Valar. Valar and Maia were not titles designating power, just jobs. (there's a great thead in the books called Ealur and Incarnation if you want more explanation) __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.