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Old 10-21-2003, 09:28 PM   #1
Iarhen
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Silmaril Slaying of the Witch King... with a Noldoring dagger?????

In the original book version, it's a blade of Westernesse the one that Merry uses to stab the W.K., and that stab with that blade is the one that destroys the spell that kept the body of the W.K. together...<P>Since there were no barrow downs chapter in the movie, my guess is that the daggers that Galadriel gave Merry in Lothlorien is the one which is gonna be responsible of that mortal stab against the W.K.<P>So... they are definetely greatening the powers of Galadriel in the movie... Or at lest, her magics...<P>What do you think?
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Old 10-22-2003, 10:25 AM   #2
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I remember seing the ee edition of fotr for the first time, and when galadriel gave merry and pippin their daggers I shouted out "Jackson, you cheat!!!" (with a wry smile on my face of course)<P>I WAS worried about wether we would have merry help killing the witch king, but this helped dampen my fears.
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Old 10-22-2003, 01:04 PM   #3
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Most definitely. Sneaky, sneaky PJ; taking out the best bit of FotR and still making up for the loss later... <P>Abedithon le,<P>~*~Aranel~*~
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Old 10-22-2003, 02:18 PM   #4
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That is a very interesting point, Iarhen. However, there is one key point you are forgetting. Aragorn arms Merry, Pippin, Sam and Frodo with blades on Weathertop. They are probably of Arnorian/Numenorean descent, and, although they are not seen much (if at all) in the rest of the first movie or in the second movie, they could come into play again.
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Old 10-22-2003, 02:23 PM   #5
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It was my belief that they lost those blades in the ensuing fight with the Black Riders. When Frodo is stabbed, I doubt they would have thought much about retrieving their weapons. I think it is extremly likely that Merry will use the "Blade of the Noldorin" to help defeat the Witch King.
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Old 10-22-2003, 04:49 PM   #6
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We hates it my precious! Sneaky Pjses! He goes and changes the story on us? Yess my precious. We'll never know why until we finds hims an squeezes him. Yes my precious and then we'll find out why.<p>[ October 22, 2003: Message edited by: Elvish Archer ]
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Old 10-22-2003, 05:43 PM   #7
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It was my belief that they lost those blades in the ensuing fight with the Black Riders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is no evidence of that, as far as I can remember. Also, would it not be just as likely as Merry and Pippin losing their Galadriel-bestowed blades when they were seized by orcs?
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:49 PM   #8
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Aragorn arms Merry, Pippin, Sam and Frodo with blades on Weathertop. They are probably of Arnorian/Numenorean descent, and, although they are not seen much (if at all) in the rest of the first movie or in the second movie, they could come into play again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think if that were the case, then something would have been made of the history of the blades in at least the EE Fellowship. Also the looks of those swords is very ordinary. I think if they were Numenorean, Weta would have dressed them up nice.<P>I suspect that Merry and Pippin will get their daggers back from Gimli or Aragorn at Isengard, as they do the books. I can't see how Aragorn will present Numenorean swords to Merry now for the simple reason, where would he get them from? Having them kicking around Rohan would be pretty weak, as would Elrond bringing them.<P>No, I think folks are right here (in fact, I've thought this ever since seeing the EE Fellowship). The daggers from Galadriel will be Merry's weapon of choice against the Witch King (expect his regular sword to be destroyed). Why else would PJ have inserted them into the gift giving? Remember Merry and Pippin only get belts in the book. They are there for a reason and we haven't seen them be used yet.<P>H.C.
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:25 PM   #9
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So... they are definetely greatening the powers of Galadriel in the movie... Or at least, her magics...<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Galadriel didn't make the daggers, she just gave them to the hobbits. She says they are daggers of the Noldorim and have already seen many battles, (not the exact quote, but close enough). <BR>Although it is possible that Galadriels powers will be enhanced, the daggers killing the WK isn't proof for this.
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:46 PM   #10
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I'm afraid I doubt that the WK will be killed with the Aragorn-given swords, as someone pointed out. I mostly agree with HC on that point. As to the daggers...I don't think it <I>that</I> big a deal.
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Old 10-22-2003, 08:11 PM   #11
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The daggers the hobbits were given on Amon Sul were kept. I don't know how, but they hobbits - save Frodo - kept the blades, because they are the same they carry later on.<P>I doubt those dinky little Noldorim blades could do that much damage in battle, either.
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Old 10-23-2003, 04:02 AM   #12
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Sting

I have to admit the bit in the film where aragorn gives the hobbits the swords is a tad 'embarissing' really. Wasn't it lucky that Aragorn had 4 little swords on him? And the line "I'm going for a look around" was pretty painful too!<p>[ October 23, 2003: Message edited by: Essex ]
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Old 10-23-2003, 11:25 AM   #13
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Sting

They were in Bree earlier. Is it that hard to imagine he bought them there knowing that we was going to travel with the four hobbits?<P>H.C.
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Old 10-23-2003, 01:40 PM   #14
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The daggers the hobbits were given on Amon Sul were kept. I don't know how, but they hobbits - save Frodo - kept the blades, because they are the same they carry later on.<BR>I doubt those dinky little Noldorim blades could do that much damage in battle, either.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> I don't know if Merry & Pippin still have their's or not, they could've been taken by the Uruk-Hai...I don't <I>think</I> that we ever actually see them in TTT. Also, I agree that a little more would have been made of the history of the swords if they where to come in to play later, don't you think? The daggers may be a bit on the smallish side, but I'm sure they're power-packed. My vote goes to Merry stabbing the WK with his dagger.
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Old 10-23-2003, 08:50 PM   #15
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Mine too!<P>Have you ever heard that SIZE does not matter????<P>The daggers might be little, but the power of the ones that crafted them is far bigger than the power of the ones that made the blades of Westernesse...
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Old 10-24-2003, 04:31 AM   #16
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Sting

On an aside, where did the word 'Noldorim' come from? <BR>I understand its creation, 'rim' being added to words to signify 'people', e.g. Gondolindrim, but I'm sure that it has never been used in the Silmarillion and I thought it would have been '....of the Noldor.'<P>Thoughts?
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Old 10-24-2003, 06:28 AM   #17
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Sorry, Elvish is definitely not my strong point. Hmm, I had never thought about what dagger they would use, but how can they use the Noldorin ones (I swear it should be Noldorin) when the theatrical-version-only audience has no idea of their existence?
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Old 10-24-2003, 06:53 AM   #18
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Is it that hard to imagine he bought them there knowing that we was going to travel with the four hobbits? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes it is. He didn't know how many hobbits would be travelling (indeed pippin and merry only bumped into frodo and sam just before this scene!) Also, I don't think he'd be spending any time in the local swords-r-us in Bree when they had to flee from the Black Riders. (ie jackson's type of pacing hinders the plot this time)<P>If he did go to the sword shop why didn't he give them the daggers as they left Bree? It's just too much of a coincedence to give them the swords just before they were attacked. Coincedence is something that should be steered clear of in films and books!
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Old 10-24-2003, 11:58 AM   #19
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Sting

Gee, in the book they bought all kinds of supplies before leaving Bree, including a long bartering session with good ol' Bill Ferny (well, maybe not so good ). There's nothing in the movie to suggest they didn't have that opportunity as well.<P>As for why not until Weathertop, that's easy, because from a pacing perspective it was the most appropriate place. Remember in the theatrical version, they leave Bree, we get a couple of traveling shots, the apple incident and then Weathertop. One of the things that makes Fellowship such an enjoyable film is that PJ doesn't allow trivial plot points to interfere with the flow of the narative. If he did, you would have felt every minute of that three hours sitting in the theatre.<P>If you wanted to invent a reason Aragorn waited until Weathertop, it's pretty simple. In the wild, Aragorn was confident in his ability to avoid the riders, but once they approached the road, he knew the chances of encountering the Nazgul grew dramatically. He didn't give the Hobbits swords earlier because he felt there was no need to.<P>The thing is, that really isn't the reason anyway. The first one I gave is.<P>H.C.
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Old 10-24-2003, 08:21 PM   #20
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One point occurs to me, though.<P>As I recall, Galadriel's gift giving session was in the extended edition (addition?) of FotR, not the theatrical version of the film. So, unless some point is made about this dagger being a gift from Galdriel in RotK (which I doubt), why bother playing it up in the theatrical version of this film? <P>I suspect that (in the theatrical version at least) nothing will be made of the dagger that Merry uses to stab the Witch-King. It will simply cause him a moment of hesitation allowing Eowyn to make her fatal strike.
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Old 10-24-2003, 08:26 PM   #21
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I do agree with Saucepan Man. I don't think that PJ will go into the history of the dagger(s) very much, mainly becuase it could only confuse the audience. I think he expects the book readers to get it, & everyone else to not have a second thought about the lineage of the daggers (which I dont' think they will).<P> -P.S.-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>extended edition (addition?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> edition.
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Old 10-24-2003, 08:34 PM   #22
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> edition <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes I know, Estel. I was engaging in some low-grade punnery.
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Old 10-24-2003, 08:47 PM   #23
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yes I know, Estel. I was engaging in some low-grade punnery.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>lol, I figured that. You're an op after all, & ops have to at least know their spelling. that's why I put the : in there...
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Old 10-24-2003, 09:26 PM   #24
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I suspect that (in the theatrical version at least) nothing will be made of the dagger that Merry uses to stab the Witch-King. It will simply cause him a moment of hesitation allowing Eowyn to make her fatal strike. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I completely agree, but those of us that watched the EE Fellowship will know that it was the dagger Galadriel gave to him. <P>H.C.
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Old 10-24-2003, 09:41 PM   #25
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Sting

I'm not even talking about power, I'm talking logistics here. Think about it! If those "swords" the hobbits carried only made daggers for normal-sized humans, than the blade itself must have been only an inch or two long! (Which brings to mind the question of why the knives were so small for a Noldorian Elf to have, in battle no less) While powerful, the blade would not have enough length to give the Witchking enough of a wound to distract him.<P>I suppose we also ought to ask if they hobbits still had those knives. The orcs would have taken them, probably...otherwise why didn't Merry and Pip take the knives out to cut their bonds? And where did they keep the knives, on their belts? Because one of them was taken buy that orc, remember?<P>As for where they got the real daggers, we didn't find out where they got Bill in the movie either. I don't think it was coincidence...perhaps Aragorn had a store of weapons nearby, or got them in Bree. Whether or not they were actually of Westernesse origin, I don't know.<P>I'm willing to bet, since we've - most of us - seen that picture of Pippin holding a wounded Merry, they both are wearing armor. They must both pick up new swords sooner or later.
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Old 10-25-2003, 05:23 AM   #26
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Knight of Gondor... one or two inches long?! Sorry they would be longer than that! Compared to Merry and Pippin those blades were like short swords around 1.5 feet long. Remember that the two hobbits would be taller in ROTK due to the ent draught incident ;P Aren't Hobbits around four feet and a little taller? So the size of the blades do seem ok to me<P>And it would make sense that the Chieftain of the Dunedain would have a weapons store somewhere. Maybe he scavenged some from Deadmen's Pike, a place of reverence to the Dunedain. Things were stranger in the book, Aragorn carried a broken blade at Bree... well strange at the time.
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Old 10-25-2003, 08:56 AM   #27
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Ahh, where to begin with Knight of Gondor's post...?<P>First of all, obviously the daggers would not be one inch or two inches long. That is ridiculously small even for a Swiss Army knife.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>(Which brings to mind the question of why the knives were so small for a Noldorian Elf to have, in battle no less)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Obviously, these knives would not be a Noldorin Elf's chief weapon in battle, just as the knife bestowed upon Aragorn by Celeborn was not used by Aragorn as a primary fighting tool. Also, again, the knives were of formidable enough size to inflict damage.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>While powerful, the blade would not have enough length to give the Witchking enough of a wound to distract him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Although I still am not convinced which weapon will be used by Merry to pierce the sinews of the Witch King, it does not matter whether Merry can "distract him" or not. In the book, Merry's piercing of the Witch King was much less about distracting him or temporarily injuring him than it was about breaking the spell that kept the Witch King from being hurt. <P>Let me switch away from this needless nitpicking and put forth what I think is a reasonable scenario about the daggers that Aragorn gives to the hobbits at Weathertop:<P>Aragorn meets the four hobbits in Bree, who he has presumably been tracking or watching for hours or even days. After meeting the hobbits in Bree, he takes them out into the wilderness. There (perhaps even at Weathertop), he picks up a previously-hidden store of weapons, presumably laid down by fellow Rangers (or even Aragorn himself) with a general foreknowledge (information from Gandalf?) about what kind of situations might arise. Is that too far-fetched?<P>Now, whether these weapons will be used in the slaying of the Witch King is anyone's guess. It would seem that the daggers of the Galadhrim bestowed upon Merry and Pippin would serve no other purpose if they were not used, but hopefully Peter Jackson would know that it would be a sore blow to the integrity of the film (at least in the eyes of many Tolkienites) if the dagger used by Merry to stab the Witch King did not have at least a similar history as the one in the book.
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Old 10-25-2003, 08:56 PM   #28
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>First of all, obviously the daggers would not be one inch or two inches long. That is ridiculously small even for a Swiss Army knife.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Forgive me for not making it clearer. I'm talking about the little daggers themselves. If the "swords" the hobbits carried were fit for daggers for a regular human, then those little knives wouldn't be worth much more than pocket knives to a warrior, much less the Witch King.<P>I don't follow you as to how you say the only point was to break the spell. Maybe I'm missing a History Book somewhere here, but I don't recall any spell like that.
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Old 10-26-2003, 12:48 PM   #29
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LotR - Book 5 - Chapter 6<P>I think it is pretty clear that it is not the size of the sword that did in the Witch King.<P>H.C.
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Old 10-26-2003, 08:23 PM   #30
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The swords the hobbits had were not the size of daggers to full sized men, but were short swords just as sting was. The swords were probably about 50cm long, and would have originally been used as a secondary weapon.<BR>Also from earlier in the post<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I swear it should be Noldorin <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Noldorin is used for something made or belonging to the Noldor, Noldorim is used to describe a group of noldorian elves, eg The hobbits were given noldorin daggers, or these daggers belonged to warriors of the noldorim.<p>[ October 26, 2003: Message edited by: Voralphion ]
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