Tol-in-Gaurhoth XXVI - Úcenite Valto - Planning and Discussion Thread

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Oh, and I called it, too, didn't I?

I declare Bêthberry the winner!

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Maybe Mithalwen should have voted to lynch Fea and not me? Phantom did raise that possibility . . .

I did consider suggesting that we all vote for Fea on the final Day. But, by then, the phantom had already expended his (perfectly legitimate) vote.

Btw, phantom, your little ploy wouldn't have worked anyway. I have no intention of casting my final vote until I could be more or less certain that Mithalwen would not be returning.

Originally Posted by Esty

The fact that several players were so conspicuously absent most of the time made it less fun to post - there was too little interaction for true playing enjoyment, as far as I'm concerned.

I have seen worse - a lot worse. But it does seem to be true that, the more attention you attract, the more likely you are to be lynched. I have fallen victim to that little "rule" before.

Still, we can always rely on Noggie to keep his eye on the quiet ones.

Good game, everybody. Most enjoyable. And thanks to Fea for great modding - even though I am still not entirely sure what happened exactly...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

So to answer a few questions...

The only detail I chose personally was mormegil as a wolf. One of my suitemates requested Eomer as the second.

Like I said, coins were flipped between any ties.

You lot killed Eomer, and the nightly fun turned rather interesting (and I must admit, days got increasingly more amusing).

Littlemanpoet died by way of art history notes. Same suitemate (she was inextricably involved in this game) wrote names on the back of the index cards she was using to study. I chose a particularly cool series of statues from Greece, and voila.

Roa and Nogrod (I believe) died when I randomized villager names, numbered, them, and attacked Formendacil with "Hey Michael, pick me a number between one and X."

For plot ideas in the narration, we flipped butter at dinner. I hear you asking "doubleyoutief" at this point... I didn't have my wallet on me. I had just about no inspiration. My room mate (and my other suitemate, of course) found little butter packets that were easily flippable.

Initial options: time period (modern/vaguely gothic); location (village/castle/university campus/casino); wolves (yes/no)... you know, that sort of thing.

It was pure chance that landed us with the rules in general, Shakespeare, and deaths. I chose pretty much nothing personally, except, of course, what to write.

Saucie, you won through both prowess and chance: basically, you survived the village slaughter, and at night, you managed some beautiful luck. Your name only came up as an option the very last night when I tossed a coin between you and Mith. She got best two of three for death.

Bethberry: thanks for playing!

Anything I'm forgetting? Probably. It's still morning and my coffee isn't finished...

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, that explains a lot. Although the ramifications are, um, interesting, to say the least.

Oh, and as for my "competitive Wolf" theory, here is my pre-game exchange with Fea:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I presume, since I have not heard from you, that I am a mere Ord.

Ah well, it appears to be my Werewolfing lot in life to be mostly ordinary ...

One question about the rules.

I understand that the Wolves do not know each other's identity and may not communicate, but are they still working as a team? Or are they "lone Wolves", with only one of them being able to win?

Originally Posted by Fea

Yes.

Nope. Mean, innit?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

With the wolves, they were never directly competing, but they weren't working together, either. Certainly not as a team.

Funniest thing when I got Eomer's first PM. It was something like Is it possible for a wolf to kill the other wolf at night? I want mormegil to die.

Maybe he kept the exact phrasing, but I laughed hard. And told morm about it.

[Mithalwen]

And had youdecided what you would have done if I had incited the village to lynch Bethberry?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I would have lynched Bethberry. Just as I would have lynched myself if Ang had succeeded later on.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Funniest thing when I got Eomer's first PM. It was something like Is it possible for a wolf to kill the other wolf at night? I want mormegil to die.

Maybe he kept the exact phrasing, but I laughed hard. And told morm about it.

So he knew Morm was the other wolf... or was it a good guess?

Oh and Eomer amd Morm did fit my offender profiling in all but gender..which was a less even division anyway....

[Mithalwen]

Ahh I really was peeved when they lynched Ang - he was more inclined to embrace the craziness than these analytical types ..and if Bethberry ever plays properly I want to be there.

[Anguirel]

Lovely. So my suggestion about Fea was actually the most sane and sensible in town...I had an inkling as much at the time. But when I returned in the morning to find myself hanged, I saw red and started baying at my screen for Sauce's blood...

My mid-game quietness was incidentally partially James Bond and partially a ploy...not wanting to get killed at night. Much difference it would have made!

Thanks a lot Vesper, this ranks among my favourite outings. Fancy a brisk trip to Venice?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Thanks a lot Vesper, this ranks among my favourite outings. Fancy a brisk trip to Venice?

Of course, dear, but let's avoid the elevators, shall we?

[littlemanpoet]

I must contest "who won".

SPM didn't win, even though he was the last confused ordinary standing.

The village didn't win, even though one of them was the last confused ordinary standing.

The werewolves didn't win, neither of them, for obvious reasons.

Bethberry didn't win since she wasn't ever quite playing.

Feanor didn't win since the Dark Lady offed herself.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Winner: excellent writing. Fascinating. Well done, Fea.

[mormegil]

I was so excited to be a wolf in this game and thought I would do rather well as there are so many loud people I could really blend in and live for a long time. I was rather depressed to die so early and must admit I lost some interest in the game due to my early death and then to see Eomer die who was my killer, you will never be forgiven, I though Fea rather cruel but had a good laugh. With life picking up and not being alive anymore I didn't follow very closely but it seemed interesting and fun.

Probably the craziest game ever though. Fea thanks for picking me as a wolf...should I thank you or were you hoping me to have a colossal failure?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Probably the craziest game ever though. Fea thanks for picking me as a wolf...should I thank you or were you hoping me to have a colossal failure?

I actually hoped you'd win. I very nearly toyed with the outcome of the coin flip (sorry Diamond!) because I was a bit sad to see my wolves go so early.

[littlemanpoet]

Well, as some of my fellow dead (WW-wise that is) can attest, I was convinced that the phantom was the final werewolf based on this basic truism: if he gets killed or lynched by the end of Day 3, he's innocent because no werewolf would want to let him live, so dangerous is he. If he lasts and lasts, he's a werewolf, for obvious reasons. Since both of the werewolves were killed by the end of Day 2, the choices were clearly random, and so the phantom survived as long as he did. So the "truism" still holds. I'll be watching you, phantom....

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I was sad about dying so early as well, Morm. Anguirel seemed to think he'd baited me with Kath-suspicion but I hadn't even seen his post before I made my vote for Kath. I wish I could have hung around for another few moments to put that right. Other voting, such as Diamond's, was based purely out of spite and should not be congratulated just because I happened to be a werewolf.

Again...

Anyway, fun game; although you all had my deepest sympathy, trying so hard for so little reward. You were sort of like Fea's guinea pigs; and she loved that fact. You know this to be true. Never forget her, the time for revenge will come.

Morm, I know you will never forgive me, but I can live with the glory of lycanthropicide.

[Anguirel]

Actually, Eomer old salt, it was a double-helix-bluff. I was claiming I suspected you on the basis of your Kath vote to get people to vote for you. My real reasons, I faithfully assure you, were entirely irrational...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Then why did you want me dead in this game, after our long history of gallant comradery? That hurts, it does, it does. It would have made much more sense to go after the Phantom.

Still, it was fun creating that last post for you. Did you work out the meaning yet?

[Durelin]

You are all completely insane.

*sniffles*

I love you...

[Nogrod]

Thanks everyone! This was mad and most fun.

And I must say I do appreciated Fea's decisions. Think what an anti-climax it would have been if she had announced after Day2: "Congrats villagers, you have won"!

Also I think that this almost totally illogical game was the only one we were able to manage with this crew. Think about the amount of theorising and the breath of analysis we would have produced if there would have been something to actually look and delve into? So not mere 14 pages but 44... and we all growing grey hair after the effort.

And once again it was proven: the game is in the players. Wonderful gaming everyone!

[Diamond18]

Other voting, such as Diamond's, was based purely out of spite and should not be congratulated just because I happened to be a werewolf.

I swore after DW that I would lynch you as a wolf one day, and I did, so I'm happy.

Anyway, fun game; although you all had my deepest sympathy, trying so hard for so little reward.

And yet, I didn't try, not at all. It amuses me to see how long I survived before lynching when my basic gameplan was to taunt people about my innocence until they killed me and I could say "told you so." Sorry, Esty, for being one of the quiet ones. I would have been louder in my random annoyingness but I had that dratted thing called life to attend to.

Anyway, I had great fun when I was able to be around, thanks Fea for my lovely death and a lovely, diabolical game. You have definitely beaten out my Wereducks game for wicked modding.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Ang

Lovely. So my suggestion about Fea was actually the most sane and sensible in town...

Unless you happened (albeit largely on the basis of pure chance) to be the last villager standing ...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Think about the amount of theorising and the breath of analysis we would have produced if there would have been something to actually look and delve into? So not mere 14 pages but 44... and we all growing grey hair after the effort.

Then of course, those of us who are the analytical type were all busy analysing our little cotton socks off, even though there was nothing there to analyse. Hence, I think, the frustration exhibited by the phantom and I when our "logical" approach to the game was getting us nowhere.

It rather proves a little "rule" that I have always held true about this game, one which I have fallen foul of myself many times - if you come round to the view that someone is a Wolf, you can always find the material to justify that view, whether they be a Wolf or not.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

It rather proves a little "rule" that I have always held true about this game, one which I have fallen foul of myself many times - if you come round to the view that someone is a Wolf, you can always find the material to justify that view, whether they be a Wolf or not.

Most assuredly. That's why theories are such a dangerous thing. So why is it, some times we can find things that so clearly point to a werewolf, and other times not? That's probably best left as an unanswerable question. Sigh. I have been stunned by my ability to fish them out in some games, and then equally stunned by my inability in other games.

[the phantom]

What a delightful little experience that was. That village was so fun that I think there is a good chance that it would have been fun even without my participation.

Originally Posted by SPM

If I did win, it was through no particular effort on my part.

Wrong. False. Winning was a feat, for it proves that you were successful at appearing innocent to your fellow villagers. More successful than me even judging by Mith's vote the final day.

Though I'm a bit peeved at you for lynching me. I'd only ever been lynched once (WW III), and I didn't want it to happen again.

Originally Posted by SPM

In any event, it would appear that both Wolves were dead by the end of Day 2. So I claim a village win.

Me too.

Originally Posted by SPM

Btw, phantom, your little ploy wouldn't have worked anyway. I have no intention of casting my final vote until I could be more or less certain that Mithalwen would not be returning.

But, could you at least admit that you were slightly outraged by my declaration that my earlier vote wasn't legitimate? I'd been saving that little gem for quite a while, and was itching for a chance to use it. As it got to be later on the final day, it didn't make any sense to me that Mith was the final WW, and you of course I had believed innocent for quite a while, but your choice to vote for me drew my righteous wrath and so I used my little invalid vote trick on you.

Twas nothing personal. As I said in the game, it was "Simply because you voted for me".

Originally Posted by Ang

But when I returned in the morning to find myself hanged, I saw red and started baying at my screen for Sauce's blood...

Not my blood, eh? Does that mean I am forgiven, Ang?

Originally Posted by lmp

I was convinced that the phantom was the final werewolf based on this basic truism: if he gets killed or lynched by the end of Day 3, he's innocent because no werewolf would want to let him live, so dangerous is he. If he lasts and lasts, he's a werewolf, for obvious reasons. Since both of the werewolves were killed by the end of Day 2, the choices were clearly random, and so the phantom survived as long as he did. So the "truism" still holds. I'll be watching you, phantom....

Lovely.

Oh, but one game defies the truism. I survived to the end as an innocent in the last WWJ game I played. Of course, it only happened because I falsely claimed to be the Hunter.

Originally Posted by SPM

if you come round to the view that someone is a Wolf, you can always find the material to justify that view, whether they be a Wolf or not

Aye, laddie.

Actually, I think it speaks volumes about our instincts the way we were so incredibly indecisive on that final day, and voting with such little conviction, and were unable to shake the thought that we were all three innocent.

[Boromir88]

I was unable to keep fully up with what was going on...what a bunch of jabber-mouths . But, from the few days I did it was just a great reading. Congrats Fea...and next time we should all trust phantom more...especially when he knows I'm innocent. It's actually kind of scary how good he can pin me down (I believe he is 2 for 2)...maybe I need to change something up.

Actually Sauce I believed you to be more likely a wolf than Diamond...hence why I changed my vote. I did have my reasons, I just didn't give them because my new favorite TV Show (Heroes) was coming on and I didn't have time.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Wrong. False. Winning was a feat, for it proves that you were successful at appearing innocent to your fellow villagers. More successful than me even judging by Mith's vote the final day.

Though I'm a bit peeved at you for lynching me. I'd only ever been lynched once (WW III), and I didn't want it to happen again.

Actually Phantom, I probably would have voted for Sauce if you hadn't presented me with a fait accompli. I knew that I was innocent and I had never particularly suspected either you though I couldn't discount you either. Since I am afraid I never quite believed the "I am not a werewolf" thing - I belong to the Mandy Rice Davies school of cynicism. However your vote made it easier for me since I didn't have a choice. Reasons for voting for Sauce was his rule check (cf Spawn in Di's game, yet it seemed less likely that a wolvish SpM would have kept me alive so long. I could never decide about either of you - you either both seemed guilty (when you lynched Ang who seemed quite innocent to me) or both innocent ..... which of course was the actuality.

I really did think it was likely both wolves were dead but since Fea had said we would keep going til one remained ... as I explained in game, lynching you and hoping that I was wrong seemed the only option... and having got so far I thougth I might aswell give myself a chance of winning.... I really thought SpM would decide to lynch me though.

I suppose that this game shows that people are more inclined to trust those who play in a closer style to them. What a game.. I kept finding odd post it notes and scribbles on my desk - trying to make sense of it all. I think it was the night kills not making sense that made me feel that the wolves were dead ...

[the phantom]

Since I am afraid I never quite believed the "I am not a werewolf" thing

Is there anyone at all who believed in my innocence based on that reasoning?

[Mithalwen]

Boromir did ..and look what happened to the poor blighter ...

[Roa_Aoife]

You know, after LMP's death, it occured to me that the one who killed him in the narration was the Dark Lady, and not a werewolf. I would have remarked on this, but I was killed. >P

I let me just say that it's horribly irritating to work up both rebuttal and analysis for the following Day, only to find myself dead.

Anyways, I had fun, despite my general uselessness. Maybe I can get more involved in the next game.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

That village was so fun that I think there is a good chance that it would have been fun even without my participation.

Surely not!

Originally Posted by the phantom

Wrong. False. Winning was a feat, for it proves that you were successful at appearing innocent to your fellow villagers. More successful than me even judging by Mith's vote the final day.

True, but it was still through little effort on my part. I really do believe that, unless Gifted and while a numerical advantage remains, an innocent should not be too concerned about being lynched - “in the cause”, as it were. Since there were no Gifteds in this game, I saw little reason to fight to survive until near to the end, and so did not bother spending much time defending myself. Perhaps I just naturally come across as the innocent-type.

You, on the other hand, my dear phantom, naturally come across as the guilty type. Not through anything in particular that you do or say. It’s just that anyone who has seen you play as a Wolf knows precisely what you are capable of and just how dangerous you can be, particularly when you give the impression that butter wouldn’t melt in your mouth. I really wanted to trust you in this game, but spent much of it fighting a natural instinct to suspect you.

Then again, I have been lynched three times to your two.

Originally Posted by the phantom

But, could you at least admit that you were slightly outraged by my declaration that my earlier vote wasn't legitimate?

Actually, I did notice at the time that your votes were not correctly stated, but took the view that they would be considered valid. It would have been interesting to have seen what would have happened had anything turned on it. Rest assured that I would have argued long and hard against your attempt to recast your vote, had it been necessary. And I would probably have won.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Actually Phantom, I probably would have voted for Sauce if you hadn't presented me with a fait accompli.

Yes, I was aware of that. I should really thank the phantom for helping me to achieve the dubious honour of last villager standing. Had it not been for that fait accompli, and assuming that chance would have favoured him as it did me, he would probably have achieved that “honour” himself.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Is there anyone at all who believed in my innocence based on that reasoning?

I was inclined to take it at face value until the final Day, when I could no longer ignore the distinct possibility that you might be a Wolf after all.

[Mithalwen]

Though, thinking about it ... as I would have done had it been of any consequence, Phantom's confident assertion of Morm's innocence, Nogrod's identity as kill etc might have tipped the balance..especially since the last time I was in the last 3 situation it was Anguirel's confident assertions that made me choose him...

I might have flipped a coin in the end.. or put myself out of my misery with a self vote

It would have been a day of monumental indecisiveness.. so really Phantom, you did me a favour...

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Perhaps I just naturally come across as the innocent-type.

Certainly not. I never overlook you. I made that mistake once and never will again.

As a matter of fact, it occurs to me that some people seemed to believe that I had bought into that Sauce and the phantom were actually innocent after the phantom's response to my little theory. Whoever did that (I can't remember anymore) was incorrect. There was a big fat "IF ... you are right, phantom..." in there. I was not convinced, but ready to take their innocence into consideration as a possibility; nothing more. Of course, the Dark Lady removed my need to worry about it.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Mith

Boromir did ..and look what happened to the poor blighter ...

Yes, that's true. I can't tell you how disappointed I was to lose him on Day 1. He was supposed to be my WW-catching ally through the game.

Originally Posted by SPM

I really do believe that, unless Gifted and while a numerical advantage remains, an innocent should not be too concerned about being lynched - “in the cause”, as it were. Since there were no Gifteds in this game, I saw little reason to fight to survive until near to the end

Not I.

I hadn't WWed in quite a while and I won't be WWing for quite a while. I came off of my WW vacation for this game, because it was Fea and she had mentioned it months ago. So, I wanted to stick around for as long as possible so that I would get my money's worth, and I wanted to provide a lot of volume and excitement to make sure Fea got her money's worth.

Originally Posted by SPM

You, on the other hand, my dear phantom, naturally come across as the guilty type.

Yes, that is certainly true, but at the same time this is only my second lynching. That seems odd to me- that I am always eyed nervously and yet not lynched as much as some.

Here are the games, what I started as, and my votes (I think these are right, anyway).

WW 1 (ordo)- No votes in 3 days
WW 2 (WW)- 3 votes (all Day 1) in 4 days
WW 3 (ordo)- 12 votes in 3 days (my first lynch, revenge for WW 2 most likely)
WW 4 (Shirriff)- 2 votes (all Day 2) in 2 days, due to my "lynch a volunteer" plan
WW 9 (Seer)- 1 vote (from a WW) in 2 days
WW 10 (WW)- No votes in 5 days
WW 21 (ordo)- No votes in 2 days
WWJ 9 (ordo)- 1 vote (from the Cobbler) in 4 days
WW 26 (ordo)- 4 votes in 6 days (my second lynch)

So, I have 23 votes in 32 days. Not counting WW 3, I have 11 votes in 29 days. Not counting votes from evil-doers, 9 votes in 29 days.

I have had 22 voteless days. My 23 votes were gathered in 10 days. I have had 7 multi-vote days, resulting in 2 lynches.

So, it seems that I have had five days where I've taken a lot of heat and accumulated votes but wriggled out of being lynched. Also, in 5 games out of 9 I received no votes from innocents. Hmm... what sort of patterns exist? Do I attract more or less votes than most others?

Ah, I just noticed that the votes for me on Day 1 ruined a streak I had going- 13 days without a vote from an innocent or gifted.

Btw, I did consider trying to convince SPM and Mith to edit their posts and thus hand the game to me. What would you have thought had I proposed that, Mith and SPM? Would it have made me look more or less guilty?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Btw, I did consider trying to convince SPM and Mith to edit their posts and thus hand the game to me. What would you have thought had I proposed that, Mith and SPM? Would it have made me look more or less guilty?

Go ahead! That looks as sane as everything that might have been done in this game.

But I would stick to Spm's and lmp's thoughts on rational arguments. With all of them you phantom should have been lynched and would I have been given one Day more, I would have tried my best to show your "cunning-evilness"... for no avail, as I now have learned (and which innocence I kind of trusted from the beginning, but was growing a bit wary of it all the time - I would surely had gone through every comma you made on the next Day had I been alive!).

So, as lmp said, it's easy to find well grounded suspicions on some games and on others one is totally at lost with them. I wholly agree with this. But Spm has a point too: you can make anyone look bad if you want to... So in the end it seems to depend on who you decide to look on - or who arises your attention? So again, loudmouths having to bear the grunt of analysing (which leads the analysed to look guilty if the analyser knows her/his job) while the quiet ones get by without notice?

Again voicing this one principle: open talking gets me wishing one to live and hiding in the shadows I only see working for the dark side...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Btw, I did consider trying to convince SPM and Mith to edit their posts and thus hand the game to me. What would you have thought had I proposed that, Mith and SPM? Would it have made me look more or less guilty?

Er - what do you think?

[the phantom]

Er - what do you think?

I don't think it's as simple as that. Or is it? I don't know.

Asking you to hand the game to me by means of the edit rule- that would've accomplished the same thing as getting one of you to vote for the other had I been a WW, right? So really, if it was at all possible that you would've voted for the other person, you might as well have just handed the game to me, right?

And surely the thought would've crossed your mind "Would a WW tp really want to win like this?"

And if your answer would've been "no", then maybe you would've gone along with it? But if the answer was "heck yeah, he'd love it", then you would've voted for me on the spot.

At least, that was the thought process that I was expecting to create had I gone through with it.

[The Saucepan Man]

As you are fond of pointing out, phantom, the only person that one can be sure is innocent, in the absence of any Gifteds, is oneself. Accordingly, given the situation prevailing on the final Day, I would never have agreed voluntarily to do something which would inevitably have resulted in my death.

I would certainly have considered whether a phantom Wolf would be so bold as to ask his fellow villagers effectively to commit suicide, and would almost certainly have concluded that it was a distinct possibility.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

About the edit thing: I thought it was an absolutely brilliant idea, cracked up laughing, knew nobody would ever go for it, but would have let it work because it was so audacious and you know how I love audacity.

[Mithalwen]

I think, that I am getting more and more glad that I voted to lynch the Phantom....

In the last days I was tempted to ask Fea to give me a Semele type death (she died having been exposed to Jupiter in his full glory )... I would have been overwhelmed by the sheer force of the Phantom's ego...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I would certainly have considered whether a phantom Wolf would be so bold as to ask his fellow villagers effectively to commit suicide, and would almost certainly have concluded that it was a distinct possibility.

Lawks! Suicide bombers in WW. I bet that hasn't been done before.

Oh, and Mith: perhaps the next WW phantom runs can be called "The Burning Bush".

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

About the edit thing: I thought it was an absolutely brilliant idea, cracked up laughing, knew nobody would ever go for it, but would have let it work because it was so audacious and you know how I love audacity.

I liked the edit rule. It added a bit of spice to the game. If and when I mod, I think I'll use it. .... just to get on Diamond's nerves.