Survivor: The Second Age

[JennyHallu]

++Celebrimbor, for reasons previously stated and general massive hubris.

[Firefoot]

++Anarion

For not really contributing that much. He's not even a character that you feel like you can know, nor is he particularly controversial or interesting. When it comes right down to it, he doesn't deserve to win Survivor.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Day 25 now commences, and I'm gleefully pleased to see that Galadriel is gone.

My displeasure at losing both Celeborn and Galadriel again(!) is beyond words. And beyond the upset portrayed by the mad smiley, so I won't bother to use it.

++ ANARION

Firefoot and Lalaith are correct. What has he contributed? Not very much. How embarrassing would it be for this program to have a victor known only as the younger brother of another losing contestant?

[The 1,000 Reader]

Hold on people, Anarion was a prince who fought for what he believed in. Celebrian was a queen through marriage who did something stupid and got hurt. Surely we should send off the less important one first, right?

++Celebrian.



Reasons already said.

[Eonwe]

++Anarion

He's cool, but he's not that cool. Sure he fought bravely in the Siege of Barad-Dur, but he didn't live to do anything really great and/or glorious. Which happens to be a prerequisit for winning this contest, in my book.

[Diamond18]

+ + Celebrimbor

For crafting rings of power, which isn't the smartest thing to do. Sure, you might get a chap like Gandalf who knows how to put one of them to good use, but the majority of ringbearers caused chaos because power corrupts. Not to mention Sauron got in on the whole thing. Overall, the rings were a bad idea.

[the phantom]

I posted this earlier, but it seems I need to repeat myself.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but the Rings will still happen so long as there are other elven-smiths in Hollin as well as Sauron. If we kill Celebrimbor, the three powerful elven rings won't get made, and thus Lothlorien and Rivendell will be diminished. And also, don't forget that Gandalf took one of the rings, a ring to help support him in his weariness and help him kindle people's hearts, and without that ring he probably would not have been successful.

Celebrimbor's involvement in the Ring incident was a plus, not a minus.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Celebrimbor

He's just too smug. Shall we say
a rather pronounced Noldor trait?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

You all fell for it, didn't you...

Not really. Formy's transparent efforts notwithstanding, I was quite glad of the chance to be rid of the vain, bossy, overbearing old wench.

My guess is that Formendacil is hoping for a Celebrimbor win. So I suggest that we pool our efforts to frustrate his hopes.

+ + CELEBRIMBOR

For reasons amply stated previously. Ring craftsmanship is all very well and good in its place. But it proved a disaster when he tried his hand at it before. And it is of no use whatsoever on the Island.

Plus, there is still the shame of his body being used as a standard by Sauron's Armies.

Originally Posted by the phantom

If we kill Celebrimbor, the three powerful elven rings won't get made, and thus Lothlorien and Rivendell will be diminished.

As I believe that I said earlier, although it seems that I too need to repeat myself, Celebrimbor's efforts directly contributed towards the making of the One Ring. Had I been around in the Third Age, I think that I would have gladly taken a diminished Lothlorien and Rivendell in return for no One Ring.

[Eonwe]

And why is that SpM? I don't really see that Suaron gained all that much by his Ring. Ringwraiths, sure. But if he didn't have them, he would have found someone just as worthy of being his second in command. His control over the Dwarves is, I guess, a bonus for the Ring, but the free world did just fine without them (or would have, if Isildur had been a wise man). The Three were used to greatly influence the world for good during the Watchful Peace.

Not to mention, if there had been no One Ring, Isildur never would have defeated Sauron, and Sam and Frodo never could have defeated him either. So.....

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Not to mention, if there had been no One Ring, Isildur never would have defeated Sauron, and Sam and Frodo never could have defeated him either. So.....

Actually, without the One Ring, Sauron would never have been able to resume physical form following his flight from Numenor drowned.

Yes, that Celebrimbor's certainly got a lot to answer for ...

[Mithalwen]

However no One ring is not the same as no Sauron. If Sauron hadn't concentrated so much of his power in a easily portable device which was also easily losable preventing him from exercising fully it for large chunks of time, things could have been a lot worse. Actually I have some sympathy with Sauron on that aspect - it seemed such a good idea to keep stuff on a data stick rather than an A5 filofax apart from the data stick being so easily mislaid in comparison to the slab of a book.

So Celebrimbor's gimmick was probably a good thing and it led to the creation of Imladris which is definitely a good thing.

Leave Celebrian alone - doesn't she have enough to cope with? She was not a queen by marriage - she wasn't a queen at all save in name but as Galadriel's daughter she was hardly the beggar bride. And it is rather nasty to blame the victim for the assault..... she was only visiting her mum like a good daughter And it must be a bit tough to be the daughter and mother of apparently the two most beautiful elf women and never get a mention.... it rather implies the looks skipped a generation and she looked like her pa. My only caveat would be the way her boys turned out. They really should have got over the dressing the sameway thing several millenia before the WotR and the way that chieftains of the Dunedain came to premature deaths in their company I find a little worrying. I just think of the Kray twins ..bloodthirsty and devoted to their Ma.....

Anarion is just a non-entity really.

++Anarion

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Mithalwen makes a good point about
Sauron having more power without the ring's
creation, but then, it was his idea both to
encourage the ringmaking and make his own
One Ring to...yadda, yadda, yadda.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

My guess is that Formendacil is hoping for a Celebrimbor win. So I suggest that we pool our efforts to frustrate his hopes.

What? A Fëanorian!! Do you take me for Anguirel? (You wouldn't be the first... right, dear sis?)

Nay, I rather have a fancy for the beautiful Tar-Míriel...

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Nay, I rather have a fancy for the beautiful Tar-Míriel...

Trying to get us to bandwagon against her, eh, Form?

[the phantom]

The whole Ring thing would've happened with or without Celebrimbor, and he had no part in the One Ring's creation, thus no blame can be placed on him. The only thing he added to the situation was a higher quality of elven rings, which was certainly a large asset to the free peoples of Middle Earth during the Third Age. Without Narya aiding Gandalf in the kindling of hearts and moving them to great deeds, Sauron would not have been defeated. And let's not forget Celebrimbor's refusal to reveal the location of the elven rings, despite much torture.

Celebrimbor had the largest impact on Arda of any of the remaining contestants. To vote him off before them would be sheer idiocy. Of course, that probably doesn't matter, for many of the posters on this thread have shown a willingness, if not eager desire, to prove their ignorance. I fully expect Celebrimbor to bite the dust.

Oh well. At least Galadriel didn't win. I'm pretty happy about that. Nice job, Formy. I suspected your prediction was meant to get rid of her, and so I wisely kept silent and let things take their course.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

Trying to get us to bandwagon against her, eh, Form?

Not this time...

Maybe I'm trying to make it look like I want her voted off in hopes that people will leave her on, because I actually DO favour a Tar-Míriel win.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Oh well. At least Galadriel didn't win. I'm pretty happy about that. Nice job, Formy. I suspected your prediction was meant to get rid of her, and so I wisely kept silent and let things take their course.

Sometimes the simplest plans are the best...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

The whole Ring thing would've happened with or without Celebrimbor, and he had no part in the One Ring's creation, thus no blame can be placed on him.

Wrong again, my dear phantom. No doubt your misunderstanding is attributable to Feanorophile induced short-sightedness, but you really must stop looking at the matter through those Noldor-tinted spectacles.

Sauron conceived the plan to create the One Ring, yes. He forged the thing himself, yes. But the whole scheme relied upon the Gwaith-i-Mírdain falling for his Annatar guise sufficiently that they listened to what he had to teach them about ringcraft. Had their vanity and greed for knowledge not led them to do so, then they would not have learned how to make such nice little trinkets. Without the Elven Rings being made, there was little point in Sauron going through with his plan and so he would not have bothered putting all his eggs into the One Ring basket.

So, but for Celebrimbor and his pals falling for Sauron's little trick (as a direct result of their own failings), there would have been no One Ring.

Oh, and if you think the Elven Rings so great, you have Sauron to thank for that. It was his teachings that enabled Celebrimbor to craft them. Without Sauron's help, he would never have had the skill to make them himself.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

However no One ring is not the same as no Sauron.

In some ways it is. But for the One Ring, Sauron could have been defeated through one concerted effort. It was the Ring that anchored him to Arda and allowed him to return every time that he was physically overcome.

And the Ring wasn't such a bad scheme, by the way. He would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for that pesky hand of Eru ...

[the phantom]

No doubt your misunderstanding is attributable to Feanorophile induced short-sightedness

Feanorophile I may be, but in this case she has nothing to do with my opinion. Fea hasn't even posted on this thread in quite some time. In addition, I... oh... you mean the other Feanor.

In that case, then yes, yes, I am biased and I do indeed like Celebrimbor more than I should simply because of who his grandfather was. I readily admit that. But that doesn't mean I'm not speaking truth.

But the whole scheme relied upon the Gwaith-i-Mírdain falling for his Annatar guise sufficiently that they listened to what he had to teach them about ringcraft.

Yes, and your point? If Celebrimbor wasn't there, all those other smiths would still be there, and so nothing would have changed. Annatar would've tutored them just as he did and they would've made rings, only not as good as the ones Celebrimbor made. Also, without his expertise and sensitivity to the rings the elves likely would not have been aware of Sauron's plot until it was too late. But the way it turned out, Celebrimbor perceived Sauron's designs in the nick of time and sent the three great rings away to be hidden and not used while Sauron possesed the master ring.

So, I believe I have proved once again that Celebrimbor's role in the whole ring affair yielded extremely positive results.

Without the Elven Rings being made, there was little point in Sauron going through with his plan

Yes, there was little point in going through with his Ring plan, err... except for the little bit about the Ring making him indestructable. But of course, that's a minor point. Rendering yourself immune to destruction isn't worth anything at all, is it? No way. Of course not. The Ring was only useful as a device to control the Elven rings. Sure.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by TP

But the way it turned out, Celebrimbor perceived Sauron's designs in the nick of time and sent the three great rings away to be hidden and not used while Sauron possesed the master ring.

His one saving grace. But it was hardly a positive - more like trying to make (partial) amends for his original idiocy. It does not undo his own contribution to the creation of the One Ring.

Originally Posted by TP

Yes, there was little point in going through with his Ring plan, err... except for the little bit about the Ring making him indestructable.

Sauron conceived the whole One Ring scheme in an effort to gain control of Middle-earth and enslave its peoples. The creation of the (other) Rings of Power were an intrinsic part of that scheme.

Possibly, had Celebrimbor not allowed Sauron to do him up like a kipper, Sauron would have gone ahead and tried to make a Ring, or something similar, anyway. But that is a hypothetical, and we cannot be sure what the consequences may have been. Perhaps, without the unwitting collaberation of the Mirdain, it would have failed, or been an inferior model. We just don't know. But what we do know is that Celebrimbor's foolish pride directly contributed to the creation of the One Ring.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

What? A Fëanorian!! Do you take me for Anguirel? (You wouldn't be the first... right, dear sis?)

*looks around innocently*

Nay, I rather have a fancy for the beautiful Tar-Míriel...

I would have voted against her to irk you, but I like her too...

++CELEBRIAN

*sigh*

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I actually DO favour a Tar-Míriel win.

Whoa dude, slow down. Now, I know that it's been hard for you that Galadriel left and you've been drinking the pain away and you see no other solution, but going after another girl will just make things worse.


Trust me.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I didn't fall for your obvious trick, Form, it was a matter of strategy.

For Tar-Míriel to have a chance of winning, I must help eliminate the actual heroes of the Second Age. Love is blind--well, perhaps extremely biased.

Oooh, some spider's gonna give it to you.

No, dancing spawn, I'll explain. In a PM.

Oh, and my vote:

++Celebrimbor

For falling for the most pathetic world takeover attempt in the history of everything--again, no offence to Tolkien for writing it that way.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

So has a plague wiped out all
the Survivors?

[Diamond18]

I think Form has asperations for this Day to last a week, Tuor.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

I think Form has asperations for this Day to last a week, Tuor.

Not quite... I've just been forgetful, that's all.

Well, I also hoped for a FEW more votes at such a late- and supposed to be dramatic- point in the game, but I guess that's too much to hope for.

ToDay ends NOW. The official post will be up soon...

[Formendacil]

Day Twenty-five ended in a tie. Due to certain rules about Day 26 and the Last needing three people (at least according to established traditon), the Moderator had to provide a tie-breaker.

++ Anárion

For being the least controversial candidate left. I want some fire at the end of the race!

(And yes, that is not Tolkien-based reasoning. I'm the Moderator. And I'm not requiring it today.)

The voting fell as follows:

Celebrían: II

Celebrimbor: IIIII

Anárion: IIIII I

Those Remaining:
Celebrían
Celebrimbor
Tar-Míriel

Day 26 now begins, and I advise ypu all to read the following:

RULES FOR THE LAST DAY:

On this, the last day, each voter is asked to vote for the candidates they want to WIN, not to see voted off. Retractable votes will remain acceptable. Tolkien-based rationale will be required for votes to stand.

You may now begin voting.

[Eonwe]

++Celebrimbor

In keeping with the spirit of the Second Age, that being redress of the wrongs of the First, and the uniting of the free realms in peace, Celebrimbor shows himself worthy of the crown of this competition.

Firstly, he turns from the corrupted path of his father and uncles, attmepting to maintain harmony with neighboring realms. Second, he starts the ambicious progect of forging the Three Rings of Power, which were instrumental in the founding of Rivendell, and Lothlorien, both crutial kingdoms by the time of the War of the Ring.

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Celebrimbor.


Celebrimbor is the only accomplished survivor left. He tried to make peace through actual peace, not war, and the three elven rings did more harm than good to Sauron.


The others have not done anything worthy to have gotten this far. Celebrimbor has created the elven rings, tools which helped save the Third Age, as well as the ages to come.

[Firefoot]

Are you saying that Tar-Miriel did nothing? She was put in a bad spot, forced into a marriage against her will to a man who would usurp all the power. It would have been easy for her to give in, but she remained loyal to the Faithful, and would have undoubtedly helped them out quite a bit (she was certainly in some sort of position to do so, even if she would have had to act in secret). But she herself was not able to be saved from the drowning of Numenor - how could she? the Queen could hardly just go missing, and their doings all had to be done in secret. So instead she drowned ascending the heights of Meneltarma. For her bravery, Tar-Miriel is my vote for Survivor.

++Tar-Miriel

Besides, it's about time a woman won one of these, and she's entirely more worthy than Celebrian, who, quite honestly, did very little.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Yes, but Tar-Mirel also did very little. Celebrimbor has done the most and is the most accomplished, so he deserves to win.

[Diamond18]

I've yet to grasp the concept of arguing with each other over our picks (though I'll bet Form enjoys it ) because I've yet to see anyone swayed into changing his/her mind.

I must save my vote till later, because I have to come up with something all nicely thought out and Tolkieny in order for it to count. But I'm going to vote for Tar-Miriel.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

I've yet to grasp the concept of arguing with each other over our picks (though I'll bet Form enjoys it ) because I've yet to see anyone swayed into changing his/her mind

Oh, you bet I enjoy it!

Mind you, I also enjoyed DOING it in past games (more notably Boromir's and Glirdan's, since Anguirel's more exotic format disagreed with my stomach..). There's something incredibly fun about taking a position, and holding to it as though it were the gospel truth.

It's also fun to blow holes in people's arguments.

[Firefoot]

Yes, but Tar-Mirel also did very little. Celebrimbor has done the most and is the most accomplished, so he deserves to win.

But Celebrimbor also made a lot more mistakes...

[the phantom]

She was put in a bad spot, forced into a marriage against her will to a man who would usurp all the power.

So, that makes her worthy of winning?

But she herself was not able to be saved from the drowning of Numenor - how could she? the Queen could hardly just go missing, and their doings all had to be done in secret.

Yeah right. If Tar-Miriel would've been around the Faithful a bit and helped them or at least been in contact with them, there is no doubt that Elendil and his sons would have had a plan to rescue their Queen after Ar-Phar left. Isildur rescued the Tree, didn't he? Then how much more likely would he have been to rescue the heir of the line of Elros that the Tree represented?

It would have been easy for her to give in, but she remained loyal to the Faithful, and would have undoubtedly helped them out quite a bit (she was certainly in some sort of position to do so, even if she would have had to act in secret).

She "undoubtedly" helped the Faithful quite a bit? That's quite a leap of faith you are taking. The Queen disobeying her husband and aiding his enemies is a big deal, especially in this instance. There are tales about the actions of Amandil, Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion before leaving Numenor, tales that tell of their preperations and brave deeds. I don't recall the queen being mentioned.

If Tar-Miriel would've done something it would've been written. Why don't you find something she actually did and then vote for her (that is if you can find something she did worthy of making her Survivor champ). You can't vote for someone based on a guess that they did something brave simply because you want a female to win. That is quite obviously sexist.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A provisional vote for
+ + Celebrian
She was actually rather adventurous, including
journeying over a rather run-down Redhorn Gate
to visit mom and dad, and she did survive orc poisoning
and ill treatment. Plus her experience with nassty
orcsees had a lot to do with her sons having
a thing for terminating orcs with extreme prejudice .
Oh yeah, and her seamstress daughter made a good
trophy wife.

[Celuien]

++CELEBRIMBOR

For being the only contestant remaining to have actually done something important. The Three Rings were important for the preservation of Rivendell and Lorien, and aiding Gandalf's efforts.

[The Saucepan Man]

Celebrimbor most certainly should not win, for the reasons that I have stated muerous times previously. He managed to get Middle-earth into a terrible mess, almost single-handedly, which others had to sort out, at great cost to themselves, later.

I rather prefer the idea of Celebrian as victor. It must have taken a lot of guts to resist simply succumbing to the torments of the Orcs that had captured her and relinquish her hroar then and there. I reckon that it was her love for her husband and children, and her wish to see them again, which kept her going, and that speaks loudly in her favour as far as I am concerned. Let's not underestimate the courage that is required to survive captivity in such terrible conditions. It is clear that she suffered terribly from the fact that even Elrond was unable, ultimately, fully to heal her spirit.

And she gave birth to some pretty remarkable chidlren. Arwen, who is likened to none less than Luthien, and whose inspiration of Aragorn contributed to the salvation of Middle-earth. And Elladan and Elrohir, whose qualities as hunters and warriors are undoubted, and who also contributed greatly to the cause at the Pelennor and before the Black Gate.

So, for her courage in the face of horrendous circumstances, and for her contribution, through her children, to the salvation of Middle-earth and ultimate defeat of Sauron in the Third Age:

+ + CELEBRIAN

[the phantom]

I can't find fault in your pro-Celebrian vote, Sauce, so you can rest easy on that.

I do, however, take issue with your anti-Celebrimbor stance (as usual).

He managed to get Middle-earth into a terrible mess, almost single-handedly

A ridiculous statement, if I may say so.

The mess you are speaking of is the Ring mess, obviously. Now answer me this- since the Ring thing would have happened even without him, how can you possibly justify saying that he caused it?

CELEBRIMBOR DID NOT CAUSE THE RING INCIDENT!!!

SAURON DID!!!

The only way the Ring wouldn't have happened is if Sauron hadn't thought of it. Celebrimbor was not necessary to Sauron's Ring plot. The ONLY things Celebrimbor added to the situation was the crafting of three powerful rings that were a great help to the good guys as well as the sensitivity to perceive Sauron's plot just in time to stop it from succeeding.

Without Celebrimbor, the whole Ring affair would've been a far bigger plus for Sauron.

(the above is not opinion- it is FACT!)

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

But Celebrimbor also made a lot more mistakes...

Yes, and with his mistakes also came helpful things while with the mistakes of the others came only bad things.

On the subject of Celebrian, yes she liked to go on adventures, but seeing as how her most important adventure led her to the thing which ruined her, that isn't a good thing. Also, since orcs are sick little cretins they probably tried to keep her alive so that they could torture her until they got bored, meaning that she didn't live through her throat getting chopped every day. Finally, going into the west (giving up in a sense) doesn't make one a survivor. Tar-Mirel didn't really do anything than be a slave of sorts to Ar-Pharazon. Celebrimbor has done the most for the Second Age, as well as the following Third Age, which helped shape the Fourth Age.

Vote for Celebrimbor, hero of the ages.

(Phantom, if you're going to vote for Celebrimbor, I suggest you put your vote down in the voting tags so that For doesn't say anything to neglect your opinion.)