Survivor: The Second Age

[Diamond18]

Now, now, there's no shame in being an Insane Celeborn Fangirl/boy. I am sure you and Ang will defend him to the death. Your loyalty is admirable.

But the rest of us will outnumber you sooner or later.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

Now, now, there's no shame in being an Insane Celeborn Fangirl/boy. I am sure you and Ang will defend him to the death. Your loyalty is admirable.

But the rest of us will outnumber you sooner or later.

Alas, I fear it will be sooner. Ang recently mentioned not being able to vote for a while. Thus, I'm afraid that I've been left to attempt to carry out our thankless mission alone.

Or nearly so. Thank you, Tuor, for joining the Tar-Miriel campaign.

Allies of the Galadhrim! Friends of Old! Will you let Celeborn fall alone and unaided? No, it would be a disgrace, a blot upon Arda such has not been seen for many a weary age of this world. Hear my plea! Come to the defense of the noblest Elf of them all, the great Lord Celeborn, and usher in a new era of wisdom and enlightment on Second Age Survivor!

[Gil-Galad]

++ tar-Miriel


she could have handled herself better as queen...

[the phantom]

+ + Tar Miriel

What did she do?

1) She married her cousin. At least Turin didn't know when he married a relative. Tar Miriel knew and still did it.

2) She allowed her husband to fall under Sauron's spell. She should've been putting her husband under her spell.

3) She obviously wasn't too cozy with "The Faithful", otherwise she would've escaped from the island with them. So, it seems she wasn't hanging with the right crowd.

Hmmm... I can't find anything that Tar Miriel did that is worthy of any Survivor recognition. Why is she still here?

[Lalaith]

Oh, this is too much to be borne. Is it not enough that the fairest lady of Numenor was wronged, terribly, once, that you must wrong her again, now, and slur her memory?

Phantom, I seem to remember Ar-Pharazon was one of your favourites, wasn't he? You remember, the bloke who married his cousin by force?
So it's ok to force someone into incest, but not ok to be forced?

I suppose it was her fault for wearing her skirt too short, was it

Like so many other heroes of Middle Earth, Tar-Miriel tried to fight against the forces of evil but failed, in particularly tragic circumstances. We can go some small way to recompense her here, on Survivor.
Celeborn...well...a decent enough chap but his little-Galadhrim tendencies, leading to the isolationist dwarf-hating policies of the Third Age, are already becoming apparent.
++CELEBORN

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Fools!

Did you think the fair Miríel consented to her marriage? It was forced upon her by an exceedingly chavunistic society!

If there was any fault to be laid on the 'good guys,' it should have been on his father. It was Tar-Palantir who erred, not the jewel-daughter. He it was who failed to give the Sceptre to his heiress before his death.

Think about it; Pharazôn, despite his arrogance, despite his control over a majority of Andor (i.e., the King's Men), didn't dare go against the holder of the Sceptre. But Tar-Palantir, in having failed to make her daughter Ruling Queen before Mandos beckoned to him, started the terrible events that happened thereafter.

I'm sure golden boy wouldn't have gone against a Ruling Queen. But seeing the ambiguity after the death of Palantir, he took advantage of it to get the Sceptre into his grubby hands. Incest was not beneath him in his quest to obtain power.

That is why I wanted him out even before Second Age Survivor started.

I say it again, this time bolded in all caps:

TAR-MIRÍEL'S FATHER WAS THE ONE WHO FAILED; DON'T BLAME THE POOR LADY FOR HER PARENT'S FOLLY!

If you vote for her, then you support everything demented that Tarkalion has done: His overweening pride, his evil ambition to be Lord of Arda, his marriage to someone against her will and his act of incest.

SAVE TAR-MIRÍEL!

Oh, and I want Gil-Galad's vote declared void.

[Lalaith]

Psst...Nilp, you need to vote for Celeborn...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I already did.

But thanks for the heads-up.

[Lhunardawen]

++CELEBoRn(IAN)

For reasons I've already stated, aeons ago.

And because Anguirel is away. Hush, okay? Tell him I voted for Celebrian and he's merely seeing an illusion if he thinks otherwise.

Save Tar-Miriel!

[Lalaith]

Whoops, sorry, Nilp, I thought that was part of yesterDay's voting.

[Celuien]

Then is Celeborn doomed? Will no one else come to our aid?

[Diamond18]

It seems that unjustly besmirching the names of the female characters (Fimbrethil, Celebrian, Tar-Miriel) is the favorite passtime of a few players here. Unfortunately for them, their game is too obvious.

[Gil-Galad]

if my vote becomes void because i didn't think tar-Miriel handled herself as queen good enough then all the Celeborn votes for him being incompetent should be void too

[Diamond18]

Is this day going to end anytime soon, or are we going for a new record?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

Is this day going to end anytime soon, or are we going for a new record?

Actually...

It's over as soon as this post is public.

Sorry, it's been a crazy weekend, with my brother's play. I barely had time last night to run off an insane Werewolf rant before hitting the hay (Yeah, I'm an Alberta redneck? Wanna talk ter mah chainsaw about it?).

Also, I will be counting all votes, doing no analysis. Sunday's a day of rest, you know.

In the future, so that I don't have to state this over, and over, and over...

Any day I don't analyze the votes, they are all counted.

That said, you've all been quite good of late with your voting. ToDay, both 1000 Reader and Gil-galad's vote are looking a bit iffy... but I'm not thinking through things far enough to decide whether or not they'd be legit.

[Formendacil]

Day Twenty-one was a two-person race, between Celeborn the Tall and Tar-Míriel of Númenor. The voting fell as follows:

Tar-Míriel: IIII

Celeborn: IIIII I

It took them Twenty-one days to do it, but in the end, the Anti-Celeborn League of such fame and notoriety in Survivor: The Lord of the Rings again achieved its goal, and Celeborn was cast forth from the game.

Those remaining:

Tribe of Those Born Immortal:
Galadriel
Celebrían
Celebrimbor

Tribe of Those Born Mortal:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel
Anárion
The Witch-king

Day 22 begins now, with the Mortal Tribe one up. Vote away!

Oh, and I'm predicting a Galadriel win.

[Elu Ancalime]

++Celebr?an

She does nothing important in the Second age, and is not mentioned until she gets mugged; and so Celebrian is learned because of her faliure of the buddy system.
________
CHRYSLER J PLATFORM

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Celebrian.

As mentioned before, Celebrian did nothing in particular, and being attacked isn't something of greatness. The other remaining people have at least accomplished something, from making a kingdom to stealing one.

[Eonwe]

++Witch-King

It follows that because Celebrian was not mentioned much in any histories, she is not all that important. I would have to agree with you on that point. She never ruled a realm, never fought in a great battle, never sat with the heads of state deciding great polocies. But I like her anyway. Almost because she didn't do any of that.

The Witch-King on the other hand, if fighting against all that the Second Age stands for: Sam Gamgee and the Gaffer, Bilbo writing verses by the fire, the Mountains, the Rule of Men, the Havens of Elves, the will of Manwe and Eru. I find that dispicable.

Celebrian is a perfect Second Ager: percisely because she is not "important".

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + The Witch-King

When the going got tough in Arnor, the W-K got going.
(running away! The wimp).

[JennyHallu]

++Witch-King

Celebrian was loved dearly by her husband and her children, and managed to survive while all those who accompanied her were slain. This speaks to me of a woman kind and true, with bravery that should be an inspiration to us all.

The Witch-King does not belong in such exalted company.

[Diamond18]

+ + The Witch King

The Witch King is evil. Need I say more?

[Lalaith]

Well, ideally, no. But I fear I do because I want this vote counted.

A silly man, swayed by something round and shiny.
(There, Form, that even followed the ancient rules of alliteration)
++WITCH KING

[Diamond18]

But, Lal, the fact of the W-K's evilness is supported by Tolkien's works.

[Formendacil]

Looks like double-long days are the norm now...

I should have been on earlier, but parents and siblings being what they are, I wasn't.

And now I have to work.

And then I have to sleep.

And then I have to wake up, go in to the city, wait two hours for a checkup and come home.

So, yes, this day will be double-longish. Perhaps I should make that the standard.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Hold it people. This is survivor. It doesn't matter if your God or Satan, the goal is to live. Heck, the winner of the first survivor ever was an evil prick and that was what made him win! You can't vote off the Witch-King simply because he's evil. Now, Celebrian didn't even see the war front; she just walked on the wrong side of the tracks on purpose and got hurt. The Queen of Rivendell should know where the enemy roams. She didn't have to endure horrorific armies and whatnot. Furthermore, she sailed into the west becuase of her injury. When that happened to Frodo, it was his "death" so to speak. The same applies for Celebrian.

Now, The Witch-King was tough. He wasn't about to work for Sauron unless he was needed greatly, and cunningly waited until Sauron "perished" and the Ring was lost until he started his campaign. He was alone, and his enemies were still ready to fight, and even with that he managed to make a kingdom In enemy territory and destroy the kingdom of Arnor. When he retreated, he did so because he could not risk a lengthy battle with Glorfindel and his reinforcements: he had a capital to save. Furthermore, the way he was killed could have actually happened to anyone; Aragorn, Gandalf, perhaps even Sauron.

The Witch-King was cunning, powerful, and managed to make a kingdom of his own and brought down a powerful enemy with him. Surely he could last longer than Celebrian or Tar-Mirel.

Also, this seems to be based off of the island survivor, not the age event survivor. The Witch-King isn't a little known guy like Othar. The Witch-King is well known, yet he hasn't gained a vote against him until now (biased votes I might add.) This means he's doing things right on the island. Also, given his evil rep., the fact that he's been around for so long without having to fall back on lying whispers shows that he's really got together for this. The Witch-King is worthy of at least making it in the final three.

Don't hate the Witch-King because he wasn't like Celebrian. We don't hate Gimil because he was shorter than Legolas, we don't hate Aragorn because he wasn't like Feanor. That's like hating someone because their favorite color is red instead of green. Do not hate someone because of such claims. If you are going to use that arguement, then why allow villains at all? Why allow Boromir? Why allow Denethor? Obviously, such a method is greatly flawed.

Save the Witch-King.

[Celuien]

Sigh. No more Celeborn. Such a cruel show. But I have other plans...

This is most likely a wasted vote today, but I refuse to vote with any of the anti-Celebornists (you know who you are) for now in protest of his eviction yesterday. (Protest ends tomorrow.) And I like Celebrian.

So:

++ ELROS

Silly, silly man, going and choosing mortality.

[Gil-Galad]

like i said before, celebrian isn't that important and ends up being a ol' "timmy stuck in well" person


++Celebrian

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

You can't vote off the Witch-King simply because he's evil.

Says who, eh wot?

I can vote for the Witch-King because he's evil if I so desire. It's supported by Tolkien. Therefore it counts.

Previous games mean naught to me because I did not play in them. I suspect they wouldn't even if I had.

All lovers of good and defenders of Celebrian, unite!

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

Says who, eh wot?

I can vote for the Witch-King because he's evil if I so desire. It's supported by Tolkien. Therefore it counts.

Previous games mean naught to me because I did not play in them. I suspect they wouldn't even if I had.

All lovers of good and defenders of Celebrian, unite!

He's evil. I suppose you'd vote someone off if they were black too, huh? "He's evil." This is survivor, that arguement doesn't work. Who cares if he's evil? This is survivor. This isn't moral views TV, this is survivor. If we use the whole "they ar3 evil!!1" arguement the winner of the show will be the person who did the least and would be most likely to die. Therefore, they wouldn't be the actual survivor. They would only live because the others were killed off by an outside force.

Celebrian did the least and was injured and fled because she couldn't cope. She isn't a survivor, and she should go this time around.

[Eonwe]

1000 Reader, for all your evidence of a great warrior, shred stratagies and whatnot, the Witch King was killed by a woman. I think that should drop him down a few notches on the HossCat Scale, don't you think?

And no, this isn't really Survivor, in that the constestents aren't acutally voting themselves off. If it was, than you would have point. I dunno, I'd have to check with B88, but I think he called it Survivor because it seemed to fit. Obviously, he couldn't leave the whole idea intact. Therefore, it is us voting off people we don't like. And therefore we can vote off the evil if we so choose.

Either way, I still contend that Celebrian is a more worthy Second Ager than the Witch King.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

He's evil. I suppose you'd vote someone off if they were black too, huh? "He's evil." This is survivor, that arguement doesn't work. Who cares if he's evil? This is survivor. This isn't moral views TV, this is survivor. If we use the whole "they ar3 evil!!1" arguement the winner of the show will be the person who did the least and would be most likely to die. Therefore, they wouldn't be the actual survivor. They would only live because the others were killed off by an outside force.

Celebrian did the least and was injured and fled because she couldn't cope. She isn't a survivor, and she should go this time around.

This is about the most immature post I've read on the 'Downs in a long while.

I'm sorry, but you need to grow up.

And call me a racist again for no good reason and I will notify the Barrow-Wight that you are slandering other members for juvenile reasons.

That's all I have to say. *bows*

[the phantom]

What has Celebrian done to deserve a spot in the final group?

I'm sure she was a great lady and all, but she didn't do anything worthy of being crowned Survivor Champion. The Witch King, on the other hand, terrorized thousands upon thousands over the years and was instrumental in the destruction of Arnor and the near defeat of Gondor.

Anyone who thinks Celebrian is more worthy than The Witch King of being recognized as Survivor Champ needs his or her head examined.

+ + Celebrian

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

1000 Reader, for all your evidence of a great warrior, shred stratagies and whatnot, the Witch King was killed by a woman.

So? It's not like women are flies or handicapped. Women have brains, muscles, and the like. They are people who are perfectly capable of fighting and such like men do. Also keep in mind that the Witch-King was just stabbed in the knee by a stealthy hobbit with a blade made to basically zap the Witch-Kings's powers and kill him. In the book, Eowyn didn't spend time taking off her helmet and whatnot, so she was quick to strike and in the movie WiKi was basically made a vegetable after the stab. I don't think that, say, Aragorn would have come out of that situation alive.

I apologize Diamond, it is just that I have seen many things such as "he has bad teeth!" or "She's Christian!" and such effect the judgement of others in real life and exclude and cause problems for kind individuals, many of whom I know. Your claim on why to send off the Witch-King just brought up old memories and that made me angry.The "racist" statement was meant to be more of a "that doesn't matter here" or "just because of this?" thing, like a gay man in the army or Jerry's girlfriend having "man hands" on Seinfeild.

"He's evil" also didn't sound like a solid reason to me. I mean, on mordor fansites you don't really see Aragorn or Gandalf voted out of games like these because their good or a ranger/maia, do you? "He's evil" also sounds more like a secondary detail in matters like these, ex: "Gandalf's a maia."

Once again, sorry.

(Since this doesn't seem to have a basic setting, I thought it was like the island used for the LOTR and Hobbit survivor.)

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I apologize Diamond, it is just that I have seen many things such as "he has bad teeth!" or "She's Christian!" and such effect the judgement of others in real life and exclude and cause problems for kind individuals. Your claim on why to send off the Witch-King just brought up old memories and that made me angry.The "racist" statement was meant to be more of a "just because of this?" thing, like Jerry's girlfriend having "man hands" on Seinfeild.

The reason I think "he's evil" differs from something such as "he's black" etc. is that being evil is a bad thing. Being black is not. The evildoers such as Sauron and the Witch-King and Morgoth were ultimately the losers in Tolkien's works because not only did they die (as good guys die as well) everything they stood for was defeated as well. In Tolkien's works, good wins out in the end.

Ergo, someone who so obviously lost, not only his personal life but was defeated in his mission, doesn't deserve to win Survivor.

Sure, I think the Witch-King is wicked cool. But he's one of the bad guys, and in Tolkien, the bad guys don't win.

I don't see Celebrian as a final champion. But she should lose out to someone more worthy than the Witch-King -- someone who was also one of the good guys.

Anyway, that's why I think being evil is in itself a good enough reason to vote him off.

I do accept your apology. I just don't take allegations of racism lightly so I had to speak out on it.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Alright, though the fact that he lost doesn't seem like a very good reason either. All of the current survivors have lost something dear to them, putting them in the same boat in a sense. Even though he lost, The Witch-King put up a good fight and his defeat was a honorable one on the battlefield, unlike Morgoth who tried to barter from a corner when he most likely knew that such a thing would not work. The Witch-King fought hard and died trying, a rather "successful" death for a warlord such as him.

Besides, on survivor, the hand of Eru does not reach far enough to cast his judgement. Heck, Sauron, the "whipping boy" of Eru (so to speak,) managed to come in second place in the Sil survivor. If a guy who lost a stronghold to a mere two people, was beaten at the height of his strength by a tired king of men(who was rather old, even for his people) and a (rather weak compared to those before him) king of elves, and suffered a "black comedy" ultimate defeat can come in second on survivor, surely the Witch-King can avoid the hand of Eru.

[Formendacil]

Day Twenty-two was a day of scandal, as the voters fell to petty bickering amongst themselves. It was like a Ring of Power had been dropped into their midst. The final outcome, therefore, was ironically appropriate. The voting fell as follows:

Elros: I

Celebrían: IIII

The Witch-king: IIIII

As gone as he was invisible, the Witch-king was voted off, evening up the tribes...

Those remaining:

Tribe of Those Born Immortal:
Galadriel
Celebrían
Celebrimbor

Tribe of Those Born Mortal:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel
Anárion

Day 23 begins, and I'm still predicting a Galadriel win. And, an interesting tidbit of information for the curious: the genders have been balanced.

Oh, and Diamond: it may be inconsistent of me... but since the Witch-king is definitely considered evil, that was definitely a counted rationale. Just try and support it with examples, to make it perfect.

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Celebrian.

Not because I want her gone*, but because she needs it.

Don't you see? Being on this island and roughing it with so many different people has scared and confused poor Celebrian. With people being sent off in small boats and poofing into thin air she doesn't even know if the world is real. Sauron spreading rumors that she was fat and that Elrond re-married has really hurt her. She's been spending the last five days on this island depressed and lying on the beach, staring at the ocean, wanting to go back to Valinor. Staying on the island by a lame voting plot rigged by Mirel and Galadriel against someone else has made her believe that everyone is against her. She thinks that the men will take advantage of her and the woman will make her a slave. She doesn't think she can make it. Anarion thinks she might kill herself soon.

So please, send Celebrian off the island so that she can return to Valinor and heal from this experience.

(*Okay, so maybe a tiny bit.)

Also,

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Celebrian didn't even see the war front; she just walked on the wrong side of the tracks on purpose and got hurt. The Queen of Rivendell should know where the enemy roams. She didn't have to endure horrorific armies and whatnot. Furthermore, she sailed into the west becuase of her injury. When that happened to Frodo, it was his "death" so to speak. The same applies for Celebrian.

[Lhunardawen]

++CELEBRIAN

Okay, okay, she's a wonderful Elf...but she doesn't deserve to be here. Please don't make me give any further explanation other than what I've already said previously because, really, what else is there to say?

[JennyHallu]

++Celebrimbor

Celebrimbor's gullibility was the root of most of the problems faced during the Second Age. If a man is granted real skill and wisdom, he should use them, not allow himself to be duped by a known enemy.

And as for Celebrian, she represents a goodness and innocence that was sorely needed in Second Age ME. The 1,000 Reader, your arguement makes no sense: Frodo's journey to Valinor, while irrelevant, was also not his death. It was his ultimate triumph, a return to Eden-on-Earth, where he died a natural human death in his own good time. And Celebrian's retreat from Middle-Earth was, in the same way, NOT her death. It was the greatest tragedy to befall the world in the Second Age. (Celebrimbor's stupidity with the Rings, and the Numenoreans' stupidity with their ONE rule was just stupidity, and difficult to see as a tragedy, really) But that Celebrian's goodness and innocence was harmed by the corruption of Middle-Earth, that we learn that good things cannot last in a corrupt world, that is tragic. I say that Celebrian should survive, even win, as our own denial of the hopelessness of this Middle Earth.