Eldest?

Who is the eldest? Bombadil or Treebeard? This question just occured to me a few hours ago as I was rereading The Two Towers. This is from chapter 5 The White Rider.

Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth.

Bombadil himself quite clearly states that he is the eldest, and this is in seeming contradiction. I am afraid I cannot offer much more than this question, my own feeble reasoning is that Tolkien is implying that Tom isnt exactly a living thing. He certainly is alive but I think not in the sense of the Children of Eru or the free creatures (which may shed a bit of light as to his nature). He is his own. That is all I have to go on, terribly sorry it is not much.

[ninja91]

I suppose that Treebeard is older than Bombadil. I mean, obviously Treebeard is said to have been around for eons. And Bombadil? It is not known, nor is it documented. Therefore, I would say that Treebeard has a couple more years under his belt.

[davem]

Originally Posted by ninja91

I suppose that Treebeard is older than Bombadil. I mean, obviously Treebeard is said to have been around for eons. And Bombadil? It is not known, nor is it documented. Therefore, I would say that Treebeard has a couple more years under his belt.

Well, Tom does tell the Hobbits 'Eldest, that's what I am.' But in an early draft Goldberry responds 'He's not the eldest - he's a very naughty boy!' - however Tolkien removed this for the published version, along with the section where Merry & Pippin at Isengard have a long discussion on 'What have the Elves ever done for us?'

Of course, Tom is clearly a bit of a looney, so maybe you have to take that with a pinch of salt

[Farael]

After reading Bombi's quote (or well, Tolkien's quote on Bombi's post) I was wondering... Gandalf says that Fangorn (Treebeard) is the oldest living thing walking under the sun... is it possible that Tom Bombadill walked a different "plane" than the rest? I mean, if he was some sort of Ainur he might very well be beyond the laws of physics, space and time. So perhaps what Gandalf meant that, of the "normal" living things, Fangorn was the oldest... after all, if Gandalf was the Maiar Olorin, wouldn't Olorin be older than anything in Arda?

Farael, thank you for saying eloquently what I tried to at the very end of my post. I agree with what you said. I personally like Tom, esp. for his detachement from the world. Which I beleive is why he is excused when Treebeard is described as eldest. For certainly if the Vala and such powers were to be included then Manwe (I am supposing here I do not know the exact order of creation) would take the cake.

And yet here I am contradicting myself. Tom is not exactly like the Vala. He is certainly connected to Middle-earth (Id Est: the theory of Tom as the physical manifestation of nature). So some measurements of time must apply to him.

As now my mind has settled that Mithrandir meant Treebeard is Eldest of the four primary free creatures. Expect my mind to change soon. Curse indesicion.

[Texadan]

Bombadil also tells the hobbits...

Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...When the elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless -- before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

If that's true, it seems Tom was there when only the Valar lived in the world. Could he have been one of them? His power and joy is in singing and it was through singing the song of Ilúvatar that the Ainur, which included the Valar, made the world.

And, to be a bit facetious, Gandalf did say that Treebeard was the oldest thing that walked the earth. Bombadil never walked. He hopped; he jumped; he danced.

[Farael]

I always thought Bombadil to be not unlike Melian, an Ainur who fell in love with Middle Earth and did not go to Valinor. That would explain more than a couple of things

*Why he did not disapear when he put the ring on (I'm assuming that Sauron didn't disapear either, it might be that if you were strong enough you'd be able to use the ring without disapearing)
*This whole Treebeard-Bombadil being the eldest (Ainur obviously don't count, or else as I said before, Olorin (aka Gandalf) would be older than Treebeard)
*His singing (As mentioned before, Arda was created by the song of the Ainur (and Eru) and it seems that Tom works magic by singing)

I can't recall right now if Gandalf says something about the nature of Tom Bombadil, but I think he could be a Maiar... I'd say even a Valar but I think they're all accounted for... and yet, he could be a Valar incarnated in a human (or humanoid) body like Gandalf. I don't know if it says anywhere that all the Valar were in Valinor during the War of the Ring.

In any case, I think that belongs to another thread.... but the point is, I think what Gandalf meant is that Fangorn was the oldest non-Ainur living thing.... as the Ainur are not alive in the same sense the elves, men or hobbits are.

[A_Brandybuck]

The quote, that Treebeard is the Eldest being came from Gandalf not from Tolkien himself. And Gandalf could err or could simplify things in his words. Maybe he just didn't want to explain the Bombadil-Thing or he didn't think about him at this special moment.

[tom bombariffic]

I think we can discount tom being a valar - is he were one, surely he would be able to resist the power of sauron and the ring, and yet we are told by Gandalf (or elrond, I can't remember which) that it would not be safe in his keeping.

Concerning the question of the thread, I'd say tom is definitely eldest. His name means 'oldest and fatherless'. We are given very little detail about him, the bulk of it relating to how old he is. His age is his most prominent trait. Treebeard is old, but he is more characterised, wheras tom is a very sprightly reincarnation of age. Treebeard may be called the oldest living thing that walks the earth, but Tom is such an enigma that he can't really be classified for certain as a living thing: we don't know what he is.

Tom is the eldest. Full stop. That is made very very clear. I think the comment about treebeard being the eldest leaves tom out as a given; of course he is oldest because he existed before anything.

bombariffic

[Rhod the Red]

What do you mean by eldest, Bombi?

[Farael]

Originally Posted by tom bombariffic

I think we can discount tom being a valar - is he were one, surely he would be able to resist the power of sauron and the ring, and yet we are told by Gandalf (or elrond, I can't remember which) that it would not be safe in his keeping.

He can still be a Valar and the ring may not be safe in his keeping... as I said he'd be an incarnated Ainur (Whether Maiar or Valar or what ever) and so he'd be, just like Gandalf, a slave of the needs of his body.

Yet this thread is not about who Tom Bombadill is, but rather who is the eldest. I think that It's clear that of all the "normal" living things Treebeard is the eldest... while Tom is the eldest of a special kind of beings.

[Raynor]

According to the Silmarillion, the ents awoke about the same time with the elves:

Originally Posted by Of Aule and Yavanna

When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared

while Tom "was here before the river and the trees", as Texadan quoted from The Old Forest.

[A_Brandybuck]

The Eldest Being could be also Círdan, if he has awoken at Cúvienen. But in this case, we could only speculate, how old he is.
In my meaning, there is no quote, which deals with the awakening/birth of Círdan.

[narfforc]

In HoME Vol12 The Peoples of Middle-Earth under Last Writings is a section about Cirdan. It states thus;

Cirdan was a Telerin Elf, one of the highest of those who were not transported to Valinor but became known as the Sindar, the Grey-elves, he was akin to Olwe, one of the two kings of the Teleri, and lord of those who departed over the Great Sea. He was thus also akin to Elwe, Olwe's elder brother, acknowledged as high-king of all Teleri in Beleriand.

It also states that Cirdan was the leader of those who sought longest for the lost Elwe.

Although Cirdan is very old, I do not think he is as old as Tom, for he came First and Alone to Middle-earth. The Istari are older, yet Gandalf cannot say so, for that would spoil the illusion of them being just old men (this may have already been sussed, as they had been drawing their pensions for some time). My vote goes with Tom as Eldest, purely because it is he who calls himself so, and who else can say they saw the first raindrop or the first acorn; and who can say he was there before The Dark Lord came.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

The Eldest Being could be also Círdan, if he has awoken at Cúvienen. But in this case, we could only speculate, how old he is.
In my meaning, there is no quote, which deals with the awakening/birth of Círdan.

I would say it is pretty doubtful that Cirdan was a first generation elf; all first elves had wives, nothing is mentioned about his. He is also stated to be akin to Olwe and Elwe (who, being brothers, cannot be first generation elves either). Him being their ancestor would be rather diffictul to accept, seeing his allegiance to Elwe.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by LotR, emphasis mine

the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth.

Can we call a maia, a vala or an other spirit a living thing? Maybe Bombadil was the oldest thing and Treebeard was the oldest living thing.

[ninja91]

But Bombadil was not one of the Valar or the Maiar, or was he?
And they were living things. They were created, and they themselves created. How, in every possible sense, could they not be living?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by ninja91

But Bombadil was not one of the Valar or the Maiar, or was he?
And they were living things. They were created, and they themselves created. How, in every possible sense, could they not be living?

He wasn't an Elf, Dwarf, Man, Hobbit, Ent, or Animal definitely. Whether or not he was Vala or Maia is subject to debate, but if those races are not classified as "Living" then we can include Tom there as well. Ainu or no, his longevity and mysterious powers give him more in common with them than with the Children of Eru.

[Kuruharan]

And they were living things. They were created, and they themselves created. How, in every possible sense, could they not be living?

I think people are using it in the sense of biological life.

Here's a question. Were the bodies of the Valar, when they inhabited them, biologically alive?

Obviously the Istari were...

[ninja91]

In my opinion, yes, because they could think and have emotions. They moved and functioned, just like living things (besides plants) do.

[The Saucepan Man]

Is there perhaps a distinction to be made here between those beings who are "born" in Arda and those who reside or come from without?

[narfforc]

Maybe this is just one of those contradictions we will have to live with, for Tolkien has Bombadil calling himself Eldest, yet in a letter to Milton Waldman in 1951 he again says that the Ents are the oldest rational creatures. Now is there a distinction between creatures and peoples? Creature to me means something created/living being. So where does that leave Bombadil, has he not been created, or is he part of something else, like the Flame imperishable or Eru. Iluvatar placed the Flame Imperishable in the heart of Ea at the creation of the world, what else was there from the beginning, who came first and alone?

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Here's a question. Were the bodies of the Valar, when they inhabited them, biologically alive?

Obviously the Istari were...

Don't quote me on this, but I believe the bodies of the Valar were not biologically alive when they 'inhabited' them. Unless we are talking about different things, I recall reading in The Sil or UT that the Valar could adopt a visible shape for the children of Eru to see, yet that was not like a real body (with the needs we all have) but rather a physical expression of a being that was beyond that.

That's why we have the distinction about the Istari, who were trully inhabiting human(oid) bodies and thus felt the same needs and feelings we do.

[Raynor]

I think Farael has a point; in the Annals of Aman, it is stated that:

Note that 'spouse' meant only an 'association'. The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes. After the coming of the Eldar they most often used shapes of 'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more magnificent.

while in letter #200, the bodies of the valar are stated to be analoguous to our clothes.

[A_Brandybuck]

It may be another case, because Melkor lost much power or rather gave it away. His body was biological at all thinking on the wounds, which he received from Fingolfin.

[Kuruharan]

I believe the bodies of the Valar were not biologically alive when they 'inhabited' them.

At one point I also held this opinion. However, I was eventually talked out of it. Unfortunately, it was a number of years ago and I don't remember exactly what made me change my mind (in fact I don't remember for sure who it was who changed my mind ). I just have a vague recollection of an altered conviction.

I think the argument ran something along the lines of, "If the bodies the Valar inhabited were capable of engaging in humanoid activity, then they had to have been biologically alive throughout. Even the Valar could engage in these activities without becoming permanently tied to their bodies." At least, I think that was how the argument ran.

[davem]

For the 'Tom is Tolkien' crew, a correspondent in the latest Amon Hen points out that two of his names, Forn & Orald are an anagram of 'For Ronald'.

For what's its worth....

[narfforc]

Well spotted Davem, got my Amon Hen this morning.

[Boromir88]

Here's just some more food for thought. This appears in Hammond and Skull's- Lord of the Ring's Companion and is one of Tolkien's letter dated 1968:

Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest 'speaking people' after the Elves {illegible} until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List...since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking.

Farael, I am new to this forum (I joined 5 minutes ago), and I was EXTREMELY relieved to read your post.

About myself - I am into meditation and esoterics... internal martial arts etc...

Basically when I was young, I read LOTR and Silmarillion constantly. I'm not a big Hobbit fan, neither do I like the LOTR movies. Maybe that's just me...

Anyway, I read the Lord of The Rings constantly. More than 20 times. When I got my hands on Silmarillion, it changed things... I thought oh my God... this is the stuff... I just couldn't believe it. I must have read it even more times than LOTR, and it gave me a greater understanding and appreciation of LOTR too.

I've been doing martial arts for a long time, but in the past year have begun a heavy meditative journey and study into the esoteric, and once again I am fortunate enough to be able to see deeper and deeper into Tolkein's work... and appreciate his Mastery more and more.

I was hoping to find similar minded people here that can see the esoteric component of LOTR and Silmarillion, and Farael you've just confirmed to me that there are others out there!

Anyway, I hope to get to know all of you! This is a great forum.

[alatar]

In TTT Treebeard states that there are trees older than he, and so if Bombadil were present before trees...plus, Tom's obviously older as he dresses so flamboyantly and doesn't care.

Doesn't he also say that as he was First? On the other hand the man does ramble so, and so is suspect. Surely there will be a poll, but between the two I would prefer to hang out with Treebeard. He's more grounded and more active and easier to relate to.

[Thinlómien]

My sister happened to ask me today which of them was older.
"I think Tom Bombadil. Ents only awoke around the same time as Elves", I replied. She raised a good point saying: "That'd make good sense since Tom says: 'Tom was here before the trees'."

So, what do you 'downers think? There surely were no ents before there were any trees, so unless Tom is lying he's older than Treebeard in my logic.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

So, what do you 'downers think? There surely were no ents before there were any trees, so unless Tom is lying he's older than Treebeard in my logic.

Can we rule out that Tom was 'lying'? Just come across this. Some interesting points are made generally about lying, 'invention' & misinformation in M-e. Tom is not, perhaps, actually 'lying', but whether he's telling the whole truth about himself is another question. Even if he is telling what he believes to be the truth, can we entirely trust his words? Is Tom all that interested in straight 'facts'?

Originally Posted by FOTR

"Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless- before the Dark Lord came from the Outside.

If Tom Bombadil were referring to Melkor, than hands-down Bombadil is older than Treebeard. And even with Sauron, since Sauron arrived at generally the same time as Melkor.

If we remember...

In Silmarillion... When Aule made the race of the dwarves... Eru came and was angry, and the Dwarves were to be kept sleeping until after the Children of Illuvatar were to awake...

After Aule told Yavanna the story, she said "your children and my children will not get along" or something along those lines (her children were plants.. trees.. etc)..

Aule said that even the Children of Illuvatar will have need of wood, food, etc...

Yavanna, worried, went to speak to Manwe about it... Manwe asked Yavanna which of her creations were most dear to her, and she said Trees... so Illuvatar revealed the Shephards of the Trees... spirits that would enter the trees once the children of Illuvatar had awaken, to protect the trees...

So Treebeard awoke at the time after the Children of Illuvatar awoke... Before that - entities already roamed the earth... entities which came from the outside - such as the Valar... and the Maiar... Tom is not Valar... so it makes sense that he must be Maiar - in which case he is older than Treebeard..

Another puzzeling thing is why Gandalf (Olorin) calls Treebeard "Eldest"...

Olorin is of the Maiar... older than the Earth... and much older than Trees... and the shephards of trees - so why does he call Treebeard "Eldest"?

[Boromir88]

Another puzzeling thing is why Gandalf (Olorin) calls Treebeard "Eldest"...

First...read my signature.

Second, in one of my posts before:

Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest 'speaking people' after the Elves {illegible} until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List...since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking.

As far as who Tom Bombadil is, there are several interesting and indepth threads. Being a Maiar is a possibility, perhaps even just a nature spirit, or perhaps as I think Tom B. is Tolkien.

[Arathul]

Tom is a merry fellow, that i'm pretty sure

Actually Tolkien did mention that he deliberately leave Tom Bombadil as an enigma. a lingering mystery. in fact, that's what make LOTR so interesting. he deliberately leave several blank spots of which he let the imagination of readers waging freely and his books become a topic of endless discussion.

A bit of topic: Did you know the "Fair Lady" that Tom mention when he took the treasures from the barrow?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

It's possible of course that Tom Bombadil and Treebeard are one and the same being , because there is no time in the LOTR or indeed in the entire recorded history of Middle-Earth or beyond when they are ever seen together .

I am the Mouth of Sauron .