The Good and The Bad - a Quick Look at the Movies

[MatthewM]

I've been wanting to start a topic like this for some time now. This thread is an attempt to have somewhat of a movie review about the trilogy. More like an overall look at all the obvious bad changes, but also to shed some light on the good changes. I know there have been topics about these things before, but I think they were seperate and not joined.

Disclaimer: Please, if you are just going to post to rip apart something that you think is an insignificant change and shouldn't be listed here, don't. We all have our problems with changes PJ made. There really is no such thing as an insignificant change, because everybody looks at specific changes differently. For example, Frodo's age might mean more to somebody than Wood's portrayal of the character. Who's to say either is an insignificant change? They are both changes. So please post with respect if you disagree. Afterall, these are my opinions.

Before I start I would first like to list the parts of the story that were not filmed, the obvious and the not so obvious, that I think are better off left to our imagination. Because they were left out, we now have the ability to imagine our own Middle-earth, without PJ's vision. Our own characters and our own scenery. And because of that, I am glad that some scenes were not filmed (in The Fellowship of the Ring):

* The Old Forest - Tom Bombadil - The Barrow-Downs. Quite frankly, these chapters are so important and close to my heart that I am glad they did not get filmed. At first I was disappointed and that they should have been included, but thinking about it now- it's good that these scenes were not tampered with.
* Scenes with the Wood Elves at the beginning of the Hobbit's journey. I'm glad we got the nod in the EE.
* Saruman of many colors - I suppose the white robe was better than attempting one which flickered a bunch of different colors. That one is better left to us, I think.
* The entrance into Lorien / the talks the Fellowship had in Lorien
* The orcs shooting arrows at The Fellowship on the Great River, Legolas shooting down the Nazgul, and the hike through the Tindrock.

There are more, I'm sure, but off the top of my head that is what I came up with. Ok...

So, let's start with my personal favorite, The Fellowship of the Ring.

THE GOOD (Changes, also those scenes which stuck nicely with the book)

* The Prologue. Nicely done, although the geography itself poses a problem for a later scene.
* Gandalf's entrance. McKellen as Gandalf was a great choice. Although some don't care for Frodo's entrance, I think that it worked nicely with Gandalf's, and gives the viewers a decent introduction to the two main characters.
* Gandalf's meeting with Bilbo.
* A Long Expected Party
* The Hobbits. They look like Hobbits should and would look. (Yes yes, we'll get to Frodo's age, but there is no doubt the Hobbits look good)
* In the EE, we see the flight of the Wood Elves. I love this scene. A great nod to the meeting the Hobbits had with them.
* The Wizard Fight. This is one of the changes PJ made that I actually like, and I think it fits very nicely within Tolkien's world.
* The Nazgul. In my opinion, PJ succeeds in making you feel fear when the Black Riders approach.
* The Prancing Pony. Although I'm not sure how I feel about Frodo's magnetic finger trick, the P.P. scene is definitely kosher with Tolkien. The whole medieval feel of the inn completely does it for me here. Great lighting and everything. A nice nod at the book when you see Bill Ferny and his goons glaring at the Hobbits.
* Aragorn. Good entrance, and although nowadays Viggo would not have been my first choice, I think he pulled the role off nicely.
* The Ranger sword. This was recently debated in a topic here, but I don't see any harm in giving Strider a sword that is actually functional compared with a sword that is broken.
* The Three Trolls. Gives us book fans comfort and joy!
* Scene at the Ford. I have mixed feeling about the actual Flight to the Ford, including Arwen's appearance, but I don't think that it was necessarily bad. It wasn't good, though. I liked the water horses in the actual Ford.
* Many Meetings. You have to like the golden calm of Rivendell...beautiful.
* Arwen and Elrond. Looking good.
* (Strictly appearance wise) Legolas and Gimli fit the part. Bean as Boromir did not, and we will get to that later. I get touchy on this subject! We are talking strictly appearance right now.
* Aragorn and Arwen in the blue twilight. I think this is a great scene, and it plants those important seeds that need to be sown in order to show the people the relationship of A & A. Not to mention, great lighting in this scene. Love the blue.
* "I will take it! Though I do not know the way." I love the way Frodo delivers these lines. It makes for a powerful moment indeed.
* The Ring Goes South. I will get to the bad changes made here, but there are some good elements here which stuck to Tolkien, such as the scenery. I like the choice for Hollin.
* Caradhras. Mixed feelings, it should have been done better and elaborated more. Still, it wasn't that bad compared to some other things. Having Legolas walk on the snow was a major plus and adds to the good of this scene.
* "Knock your head against these doors Peregrin Took...!" I like how they added this (I think it's in the EE) because it shows Gandalf's short temper, especially when it comes to Pip.
* Moria. Was done very well. Of course, as with every part of the story, could have been elaborated more, but looking at what we were given - pretty good. I was glad to see Pippin's folly, although I don't understand why he couldn't have just actually thrown a stone instead of a whole skeleton.
* Gandalf's fall. Nice.
* The scenery of Lothlorien.
* Galadriel. I think Cate was a wise choice. I don't know if it's just me, but after seeing Cate as Galadriel she (Cate) is wayyyy hotter.
* The Mirror of Galadriel. Done well, along with G's temptation.
* The gift scene was nice, although I think it complete rubbish that they didn't show Boromir get his gift of a golden belt.
* The Great River and the Argonaths. Could have elaborated much more, though.
* The Breaking of the Fellowship. Bean did a awesome job in this scene of portraying Boromir and his temptation. The attempt to take the Ring, although I would have done things differently, was nicely done.
* Boromir's death scene. Again, I would have done it a bit differently, but it was done well. It showed Boromir's valiant and heroic nature as he attempted to save M & P.
* The Departure of Boromir. I'm glad they showed his funeral boat going down the Falls of Rauros.
* Frodo and Sam. Done well, especially Frodo thinking of Gandalf's words.
* "Let's hunt some orc." Delivered nicely by Viggo and set up for an optimistic future.

THE BAD

* Let's get it over with...Frodo should have been older.
* The time was out of whack. That was not 17 years!
* Pippin is not in the company that sets off. I do not like this, and "Three is Company" is completely left out of Pippin's story!
* "Conspiracy Unmasked" is also left out. What gives?! The conspiracy was what brought the Hobbits together and from the onset showed Sam, Merry, and Pippin's devotion to Frodo. M & P's entrance from Farmer Maggot's crop is horrible and too random, and is just not true.
* No Farmer Maggot.

TO BE CONTINUED!
Ah! Unfortuntely I am out of time right now but I will continue this list tomorrow! I hope you all enjoy and I will finish this tomorrow.

[Maedhros_the_Tall]

I look forward to reading more of this!! Especially your views on Sean Bean as Boromir

[Sauron the White]

yes... over the years I have read many posted comments from many different people on several sites indicating that they were thankful for the changes in the character of Boromir making him much more of a sympathetic character than he came across as in the book .... so this should be interesting given the previously stated feelings of Matthew for the Boromir character......

and interesting may be too mild of a word.

[MatthewM]

Glad to see the interest, and I will be finishing this up tomorrow, however let it be known that I do not want to turn this thread into a debate on my opinions about Bean as Boromir...I have expressed these views numerous times on other threads. I was just going to say a few words about it, but again, I don't want this thread to turn into a discussion solely on that. I'm taking a lot of time writing all of this stuff out and I would like to discuss more than just that.

[Lush]

* The Old Forest - Tom Bombadil - The Barrow-Downs. Quite frankly, these chapters are so important and close to my heart that I am glad they did not get filmed. At first I was disappointed and that they should have been included, but thinking about it now- it's good that these scenes were not tampered with.

Preeecisely.

It's my favourite part of the book, and it's also 100% unfilmable.

[Folwren]

Nice. I have only read some of the list. I noted that your last 'Good' thing was the "Let's hunt some orc" line, and I just want to make note here that I disagree utterly. I hate that line. It is probably my least favorite line of any movie that I have ever watched. None other, to my knowledge, grates so badly on my nerves - not even the Legolas ones that people rant so much about.

Otherwise, everything else you've stated and that I've read, I agree with.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lush

Preeecisely.

It's my favourite part of the book, and it's also 100% unfilmable.

I don't agree it's unfilmable. In fact, many episodes of these chapters could have been fantastic visually, almost without special effects. Just picture the Hobbits leaving the Shire and entering the Old Forest in the grey dawn, with silver dew on the grass and fog in the air. Or the spooky atmosphere inside the Forest, the creaking of the trees, the sudden stirring of the leaves, a bransch falling right in front of them ("It's just the wind", says Merry). The Barrow Downs could also be great on film - when the Barrow Wight takes them you could use the book for a script and it would be a great scene. Tom Bombadill, as he is described, would be difficult to pull off though. But then again, he is silly, even in the book, with his hopping about, whistling, and hopeless fashion sense.

I think the problems have to do with plotting and time concerns, more than anything else. In order to do these chapters justice you'd have a running time of at least 20-30 minutes more. These episodes could also confuse the audience, since they are sort of a side quest with little or nothing to do with the ring.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Caradhras. Mixed feelings, it should have been done better and elaborated more. Still, it wasn't that bad compared to some other things. Having Legolas walk on the snow was a major plus and adds to the good of this scene.

The thing is, I didn't notice this until the third time I watched it (but then, the first two times I hadn't read the book, so...). It really gives you sense of the differcence, especially when you see Boromir barreling through (though I'm not sure I like that, but the contrast is good).

[Macalaure]

Nice thread there. Much of what I would comment has already been said, but here are a few more or less random things from me.

I think that one of the worst changes was the omission of the "Conspiracy unmasked" part. They wouldn't necessarily have to do the entire Crickhollow side plot, but had they only filmed the most basic essentials of it in a few minutes, it would have given Merry and Pippin a lot more depth - not to mention a more decent introduction.

I think the scenes in Bree are the only ones where Mortensen is really a good fit for Aragorn. I keep thinking that PJ had this introduction more in mind than the later story when he casted him. Mortensen makes a good Strider, but not a good Elessar.

The ranger sword has been mentioned - note that Strider is also given bow and arrow in the movie. I think this was a good deviation.

One change I liked was the introduction of Elvish lines. I know that half of the words and grammar was probably made up, but the sound was at one level with Tolkien's own. When used in conversation it sometimes seems a little forced, but I really liked it in the scenes with Arwen at the Ford of Bruinen and Saruman at the top of Orthanc conjuring the wrath of Caradhras (whether those scenes themselves were good or made sense is another thing). It's a pity that many original Elvish lines were omitted. It's no surprise Namarie didn't make the cut, but a little A Elbereth and a glimpse of the Hall of Fire would have been nice.

The Breaking of the Fellowship - the way it's been done is ok, but here it could really have been better had they stuck to the original text more. The dialogue between Frodo and Boromir is one of the best of the entire LotR. They surely could have saved a few minutes of screen time for it.

[Lush]

it is, after all is said and done, a weak reader who reads only with personal touchstones.

Beth, I wouldn't attempt to characterize anyone's relationship to the literary work based on this discussion. As I've stated upthread, I don't believe the thinking woman's Aragorn and the fighting woman's Aragorn to be in conflict with one another. I think it's a false dichotomy, whether it's applied to Aragorn, or something or someone else. And I read the mix of tears and cheerfulness at the breaking of the Fellowship scene very differently than you do. If you think that Viggo Mortensen's "designer stubble" has warped my mind, you are free to do so. But I think it takes away from the conversation.

Mortensen makes a good Strider, but not a good Elessar.

That's something that I've always thought as well, Macalaure, though I don't limit his good scenes to Bree. I even think he's good for most of TTT. Then RotK happened, and I sat there wondering if the pod people had kidnapped the character. I could go on and on about my theories on this, but they're all boring.

[Boromir88]

Well, Bb, I knew that you knew that quote (and you probably knew, that I knew, that you already knew that quote), so here's my rebuttal.

'Let me think!' said Aragorn. 'And now may I make a right choice, and change the evil fate of this unhappy day!' He stood silent for a moment. 'I will follow the Orcs,' he said at last. 'I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if I see him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played it part. Yet we that remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength left. Come! We will go now. Leave all that can be spared behind! We will press on by day and dark!'

Aragorn delivers that same message in the movies, just not in monologue form. Remember after Legolas and Gimli find out Aragorn does not intend to follow Frodo and Sam, Aragorn says:

"Frodo's fate is no longer in our hands."

Gimli says something about the Fellowship failing and Aragorn replies: "Not if we hold true to eachother. We will not abandon Merry and Pippin to torment and death, not while we have strength left. Leave all that can be spared behind. We travel light. Let's hunt some Orc."

So, Aragorn virtually delivers the same message in the movies as he does in the book, just a shortened version of it, and Gimli's tiny interruption. And lookie how the chapter Departure of Boromir ends:

"Yes," said Aragorn, "we shall all need the endurance of Dwarves. But come! With hope or without hope we will follow the trail of our enemies. And woe to them, if we prove swifter! We will make such a chase as shall be accounted a marvel among the Three Kindreds: Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Forth the Three Hunters!"

There Aragorn goes on about hunting his enemies again, and he's with his two companions, not the macho Rohirrim. Jackson just decided to shorten that monologue pep talk down to "Let's hunt some Orc." Aragorn must be Tolkien's version of Hamlet, always wanting to hear himself talk.

P.S. I happen to think Jonas Armstrong makes a very handsome yet ruggedly capable Robin Hood, by the way.

[Mithalwen]

Ah but like Aragorn, Hamlet is struggling to make a decision...

I think book Aragorn can be a bit of a prig *hope Fordim isn't around with his gauntlet* and despite not being particulary dark and tall, I liked Viggo Mortenson's performance very much - he was excellent at Bree and Weathertop. However I thought it was very wrong to have him kill the Mouth of Sauron.

You just don't kill emissaries - even if they are slimey creeps who are extracting the Michael. It just seems craven and unworthy of the rightful leader of the free world.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Well, Bb, I knew that you knew that quote (and you probably knew, that I knew, that you already knew that quote).

Who's on first?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Aragorn delivers that same message in the movies, just not in monologue form.

See, for some of us (well, maybe just speaking of myself, and not using the royal we) poetically speaking, "the same message" involves all of the ways that a message can aspire to meaning. So, if certain aspects are changed, then the message changes. Notice that Forth the Three Hunters lacks a direct object. Sometimes even the omission of a few small words can change nuance. And in writing such as Tolkien achieves, nuance is valuable, no?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Aragorn must be Tolkien's version of Hamlet, always wanting to hear himself talk.

What Mithalwen said. The allusion to Hamlet is significant for the character development of Aragorn and to omit it by shortening the monologue is to take away from Aragorn's character rather than to enrich it. JMHO.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

P.S. I happen to think Jonas Armstrong makes a very handsome yet ruggedly capable Robin Hood, by the way.

And I absolutely promise not to make any cracks, wise or otherwise, about closets and leaving them, lest I be once again accused of crossing lines or taking away from the conversation.

[MatthewM]

Added to the GOOD List:

- The Music

Lalaith, indeed! I completely forgot to mention the music. The music has to be one of the best parts of the films.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

The Breaking of the Fellowship - the way it's been done is ok, but here it could really have been better had they stuck to the original text more. The dialogue between Frodo and Boromir is one of the best of the entire LotR. They surely could have saved a few minutes of screen time for it.

I agree. I actually must recant what I said about this scene, I actually think it should be under the "BAD" category. Boromir's words with Frodo should have been much longer and closer to the text. Bean was good in the scene, but again he is not my Boromir.

Boro88, nice points. I agree, and I agree with Lush as well. Beth, it seems to me that you are becoming a little rude to Lush and others, kind of segregating those who like the line and those who don't with "fangirls/boys" or whatever. I see nothing wrong with the line and I think if people like it, they like it...

Groin- I agree about Gimli, he was too much comic relief. I'll get to Gimli on the BAD list next update.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Matthew

I agree. I actually must recant what I said about this scene, I actually think it should be under the "BAD" category. Boromir's words with Frodo should have been much longer and closer to the text. Bean was good in the scene, but again he is not my Boromir.

I wouldn't put it into The Bad category, it's simply not bad enough compared to the company it would have there (like the drinking game! ). Maybe we need a, probably huge, Could Be Better category.

[Boromir88]

However I thought it was very wrong to have him kill the Mouth of Sauron.~Mith

Oh definitely, that was completely inexcusable in my opinion. I can't even chalk this one up to "trying to reach a more modern audience" defense, or the "modern audience wouldn't understand the era Tolkien was writing in" defense.

There are many many current movies where the evil, bad ambassador is granted parley, and even though you know the guy is as rotten as his teeth usually is, are granted parley. Look at Troy, Gladiator, King Arthur, Braveheart, The Patriot, Kingdom of Heaven all these movies have "Rules of War" and treating with the enemies' ambassador/leader. I saw Prince Caspian about a week ago (absolutely loved it by the way!) and the evil Telmarine King dude is treated with dignity and respect when he is bartering a deal with the good King Edmund. So, I don't by the "modern audience won't understand" excuse for this one. Beheading the MoS is just inexcusable.

Sometimes it seems like Jackson thought we viewers were stupid and wouldn't "understand," so he had to dumb it down. That's possibly the most aggravating thing about the movies. What is it that the dwarf says in Narnia "You start treating animals like they're dumb and they become dumb?"

Lalaith, which is why when Theoden perks up and is all gun-ho about aiding Gondor, it doesn't make any sense. Quite literally 10 minutes ago Theoden was going on about how he would never help Gondor because what had Gondor done for him!

Gimli definitely seems to be one of the characters that takes a back seat to the talk about what characters were "ruined." Certainly he doesn't get as much mentioning as Faramir. I actually tend to forget about Gimli because I thought his portrayal in FOTR was pretty good. He was used for comic relief, and in Moria I admit that "no one tosses a dwarf" thing was pretty funny, but the 2nd and 3rd time it got old. Anyway, in FOTR Gimli had some comic relief but I don't think he ever lost his dignity. By TTT and ROTK that's changed and Jackson took the comic relief thing way too far with Gimli.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I wouldn't put it into The Bad category, it's simply not bad enough compared to the company it would have there (like the drinking game! ). Maybe we need a, probably huge, Could Be Better category.

Perhaps you're right - maybe "Bad" is a stretch. Just ...not as good as it could have been, although good. If that makes sense.