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08-14-2005, 08:48 PM | #41 |
Spirit of a Warrior
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Wow!! Those are really neat comparisions. I would have not thought to look at this that way.
I am going to have to go back and read with a different eye this time. Thanks. BTW, did you know that a Christian author that writes on warfare has writen a book called "This Day We Fight" and stated that he got it from the RotK movie.
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08-14-2005, 08:49 PM | #42 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Are you suggesting, Mr. Underhill, that LotR speaks mainly to impressionable youth and that others who have already developed or established their own worldview find less value in it? If so, then perhaps you have identified how LotR 'chooses' its readers?
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08-15-2005, 10:24 AM | #43 |
Dread Horseman
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I wasn't suggesting anything so much as I was making an observation: that in my experience most (not all!) people take up LotR when they are young, or not at all. How much this says about LotR, and how much about our culture and the effects of age, I can't say. Also, I felt that Tolkien had had a rather profound and, as it turns out, lasting effect on me, and I wondered if others might have had similar experiences.
I would not go so far as to say that young and impressionable people necessarily get more "value" out of LotR by virtue of their inexperience, although I'd say they are more apt to be receptive to its idealistic moral standpoint. Whether that standpoint is valuable or not has been the subject of some debate. As I recall from a certain philosophy thread -- or was it one about characterization? -- there are at least a few Downers who are attracted to LotR's moral philsophy on some abstract level, but consider it untenable or at least unrealistic in "the real world". Anyway, this thread was meant more as a place for people to share or to speculate about how (or if) Tolkien's work had any significant impact on their own personal Weltanschauung than a place for making any sweeping generalizations about who gets more value out of LotR. Also it was a chance to use the word Weltanschauung, which I never pass up. Try it. It's fun. Weltanschauung. |
08-15-2005, 10:51 AM | #44 | |
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Quote:
"Weltanschauungskina."
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08-15-2005, 01:24 PM | #45 | |
Cryptic Aura
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I was wondering if to some degree the book impacts on people who are already predisposed towards a certain world view rather than being a prime influence in helping establish that Weltanschauung. Maybe just a chicken and egg point however. But perhaps you are right in focussing just on the kind of subjectivity itself. Young people might be said to be rather more into the Sturm und Drang.
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08-15-2005, 03:14 PM | #46 |
Dread Horseman
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I didn't mean to zing you for being off-topic; I only meant to articulate what interests me about the thread. You're right that it hasn't been, over the years, a smash hit of Canonicity proportions, but I daresay there's quality -- if not quantity -- here that rivals some of the more analytical threads of recent times.
As an artist, I'm very interested in thinking about what effect or impact my work can have on other people. What is possible beyond mere entertainment? As a reader, LotR is one work I can definitely point a finger at and say, "Well that did something." So I mean, in answer to your questions, I can't say whether young readers get more value in general out of LotR than older readers, or whether LotR activates some philosophical predisposition in readers or actually helps form the philosophy from the ground up. I can't even answer those questions definitively for myself, let alone for some hypothetical group of readers. Let me ask you this: at what age did you first read Tolkien? What impact, if any, do you think he had on your Weltanschauung? I'm also interested in the replies of people who say, no, no book has affected or is likely to significantly affect my worldview, if that's your experience. |
08-19-2005, 05:30 AM | #47 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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I didn't first read Tolkien as a teen, though. I must say that his thoughts about fantasy have certainly given me much pause for thought. EDIT: Well, I'm not sure if it is kosher to copy a post in this way, but I just read Lal's statement on Fordim's, "Are you a better person?" thread and thought it really pertained as well to Mr. U's interest, so here's a link to Lal's Weltanschauung .
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 08-19-2005 at 05:42 AM. |
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08-19-2005, 01:01 PM | #48 |
A Mere Boggart
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Well, seeing as Bethberry copied in my post and Mr Underhill is asking - I underwent a gradual change after first reading Tolkien, wanting to learn more about myth, legend, basically anything remotely 'magical' (in the descriptive sense ). So about three years later I found that the faith I thought was strong, was actually not strong and that it didn't fit me properly. I do not know what Tolkien would think if he knew a reader had actually lost their faith from reading his work - though I'm sure I was not the first.
The odd thing is that I simply did not register all the Christian morality and even imagery in Tolkien's work until many years later. It wasn't that I just thought his books were 'dead cool' (though of course they are ) but that the magical elements swept me away. Is losing/changing your religion significant? It didn't seem so at the time as nobody really minded. Possibly Tolkien started it off in me, he certainly got me more interested in archaeology and pre-history and what we now term 'new-age' stuff, but maybe I was predisposed to that in the first place? Judging by my fondness for His Dark Materials and Harry Potter, I reckon I'd have loved Tolkien just as much if I discovered his work in adulthood, but I'm glad I did find those books when I was young as I've had more time to enjoy them.
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08-25-2005, 07:08 AM | #49 |
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I've been influenced by Tolkien from a six-year-old, so I really cannot tell, what is Tolkien's influence, and what is from me, or somewhere else... But it's clearly influenced something, but I don't know what, in fact. Perhaps it has made me think that nothing/no one is evil at the beginning, or that nothing is pure evil.
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09-16-2005, 10:51 AM | #50 |
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Not much time to post, obviously.
I just felt like sharing that Tolkien's works established in my mind a firm belief in absolutes. The sense of direction in all (or most) of the characters' lives leaves a sense that when one looks at the grand scheme of the world, things do make sense. Also, I've found that Tolkien's writings have influenced me to favor passive suffering (at least in theory). For some strange reason I've come to believe that suffering injustice is in itself a noble thing. I remember seeing a film last year about the life of a central American Archbishop that was martyred (it was called "Romero"). The man had encouraged social organization against the military regime in El Salvador(?). When discussing the movie, I found that everyone else thought that Romero had taken the "high road", while I found myself thinking that he'd taken the easy way out. I still think so, and this (more than the belief in absolutes) is firmly grounded in my experiences in the Lord of the Rings and especially the Silmarillion. I suppose in summary, these wonderful books have given me a different sense of moral values, a sense that supererogatory goodness is a great virtue. Wandering off again, Iarwain
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09-16-2005, 11:53 AM | #51 |
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I first read LOTR when I was almost 14 years old and I have to admit that it has changed me completely. It made me be more aware of feelings and moral values that had been until then almost unknown to me, it made me understand life better and it made me cherish the ligth and beauty of this world because the characters that I admired so much had been through so much toil and suffering to keep it there. But this is what all myths and fairy-tales do and maybe this is why we love them so much. In real life we see many horrible things such as murder, treason and so on, and it is more than sad to see what man is doing to this world. And I think that it is a comfort for us to read about bravery, and friendship, and honour, and all the other things that are valued in fairy-tales and in legends. Books like LOTR are places of refuge for those that are tired of the pain and horror that is in their world. It is rather lonely, I know, to say that some characters from a book are your greatest friends, but I have learned more from them than I have learned from any other person in the real world. And I think that if more people read and understood LOTR many of the problems we deal with would be solved.
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09-21-2005, 12:53 PM | #52 | |
Alive without breath
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Quote:
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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09-21-2005, 01:16 PM | #53 |
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Probably only in one or two specific ways....
Gandalf's speech about Gollum completely and irrevocably changed my views on Capital Punishment.
It encouraged the "Tookish" side of my nature to win over the "Baggins" (although part of the responsibility for that was my aunt who said when my sister and cousins all married aged 21/22 that I would have to be the family traveller.....I will have to remind her of that the next time she suggests it is about time I settled )
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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04-12-2008, 10:28 AM | #54 |
Cryptic Aura
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Look -- a eucatastrophe! An unexpected party for the newer set to party on.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 04-12-2008 at 08:32 PM. |
04-12-2008, 08:24 PM | #55 |
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Old bones
Thanks for excavating this thread Beebs.
I don't know about changing or effecting my view on life (or anything beyond) but given that I ended up writing my Master's thesis on Tolkien and that I'm now trying to retool my entire existence so that I can be a writer rather than an academic it would seem that having read the works and admired the writer has guided me in ways I never would have expected when I first encountered Middle-earth at the ripe age of 11.
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04-13-2008, 08:22 AM | #56 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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I did it because of Mister Underhill's great sense of vocabulary. . . .
Quote:
Quote:
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 04-13-2008 at 11:01 AM. Reason: a slip of the code ruins quotes |
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04-13-2008, 08:29 PM | #57 |
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04-15-2008, 11:09 AM | #58 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Hmm... I had to look up eucatastrophe but knew Weltanschauung.... since I have degrees in literature but only a failed O level in German that has now affected my Weltanschauung .. :P
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
04-16-2008, 07:55 AM | #59 |
Cryptic Aura
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I do hope you looked eucatastrophe up in the right source--Tolkien's OFS. He does that to us all the time, though, doesn't he, with his philological derivations and historical development of words.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
04-21-2008, 03:01 PM | #60 |
Pilgrim Soul
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No Bethberry I didn't. That would be a slippery slope that might get to make an attempt on threads such as Canonicity...without the help of a sherpa... I looked it up on Wikipedia.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
04-21-2008, 03:42 PM | #61 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Okay... Katastrophe
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Whatever Tolkien says...
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04-21-2008, 04:16 PM | #62 | |
Late Istar
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From the OED:
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04-22-2008, 10:44 AM | #63 |
Pilgrim Soul
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*fingers in ears* lahlahlahnotlisteninglahlahlahlah
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
03-02-2010, 08:28 PM | #64 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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