Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Did she love him? She certainly goes to bat for him at least once, but that's in her role as Mercy. Given how unrepentant Melkor is, it's hard to see how the Weeper could fall for him.

Which brings me to the first (and only) real creep in the Silmarilion: Eol the Dark Elf, maker of Anglachel/Gurthang (which just so happened to end up in the hands of someone as dark and brooding as he himself was)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

About Morgoth and Nienna

It miiiight be polite to mention when you're linking to explicit smut.

Also: the fact that someone wrote fanfic of it doesn't make it true. I have a very long story asserting that Legolas went on a time-travelling adventure to throw pancakes in the face of most of Middle-earth, but that doesn't mean you should cite it as evidence of baked goods weaponry. From what I caught before closing it, that story doesn't even make a case: it just sort of throws them together.

Which is fine; it's fanfic, and moreover it's smut. But it's not an argument.

My own Nienna/Melkor story, for what it's worth, is over here, and is perfectly safe to read. But also doesn't make a case out-of-universe.

hS

[Urwen]

I can so picture it.....

[SETTING: After Dagor Dagorath]

EOL
*sips tea*
Why, you're finally here. Wanna talk?

TURIN:
Talk about what?

EOL:
They hail you as a hero, don't you know? They sing praises to you, who drove your sword into Morgoth's black heart. Serves him right, that sucker, ha! And yet, they all overlook my contribution to the whole thing....

TURIN:
*frowns*
What are you talking about?

EOL:
I made your sword, you know? It was the finest piece of work I've ever created. There was another just like it. It's sibling, you know. Then it was taken from me by....someone I wish I could wipe out from my memory. Still, your contribution help me quell my bitterness about that....incident.

[enter Nellas, clearly displeased at the view]

NELLAS:
*frowns*
Stay away from my husband, spouse-killer

TURIN:
*stands up*
It's okay, it really is.

NELLAS:
No, it's not. He is only trying to corrupt you.

TURIN:
*wry grin*
Ah, the irony. In the past, it was me who corrupted others.

NELLAS:
That was Morgoth's influence.

TURIN:
If I had stayed with you, none of that would have happened, so some of the blame lies with me.
*suddenly notices that his sword is no longer there*

EOL:
It served its purpose in slaying Morgoth, so now I'm taking it back. Thank you.

TURIN:
Meh, I am better off without it. Shall we?

*Turin and Nellas wander off together, as the scene fades to black*

[Urwen]

Someone should totally write a fanfiction about Turin and Eol meeting one another.....

[Urwen]

I just read a story which nearly drove me to tears. What really gets me is the fact that he destroyed the best thing he ever had out of petty jealousy.....

[Urwen]

Do you believe that Feanor was a genius? And what are your thoughts on his exile?

[Urwen]

I wish I could talk about certain someone for all of eternity.

gurd tuohtiw a gurd ym si nilgeam rof

[Urwen]

I am curious about the song lyrics of these two songs (links lead to song lyrics, not videos).

Some people claim that both songs are about Maeglin, while some say that the first one is about Anglachel and the second one is about Turin. What are your thoughts on this subject?

[Urwen]

I want to write a story inspired by these two songs and I want to know who the main character should be.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I want to write a story inspired by these two songs and I want to know who the main character should be.

I think I've said before that I'm not all that into music questions, but since you asked nicely (elsewhere), and since I'm already vaguely familiar with the songs, okay...

-Is The Dark Elf one of the narrative/non-lyrical songs? The link you give only provides one line ("A dark seed of evil is grown"), which certainly sounds like those tracks (the most hilarious is 'Lammoth', which is just a 20 second scream). Anyway, the title certainly points at Eol, since it's his usual moniker.

-Thorn is said by Wikipedia to be about Maeglin in captivity, and I can't argue. Look at these lines:

Come follow me
And you will see
How it will be
When all the pain is gone away

I'm lost in the depths of his eyes
I can't flee
Inner pain caused insanity
It's deep within
The fear and the hunger
Enslaved and denied
By my love and my enemies
I'm the illgotten son

That latter quote is just a paraphrase of the idea that Morgoth put a shadow of fear in Maeglin's heart before he sent him back. It specifically doesn't work for Turin, because he was never caught by anyone's eyes (that was Nienor), and wasn't denied by either of his canonical loves (rather, he denied Finduilas).

Have you listened to the whole album? I admit to mostly liking Nightfall itself, but there's some good stuff on there.

hS

[Urwen]

Yes, I have listened to the whole album.

What got me thinking is this single lyric:

The dark seed of evil is sown/grown

The book says something similar about Maeglin.

What if there is a deeper meaning behind that?

It is stated in the book that Morgoth feared Turgon more than anything else? What if he took a more proactive role in bringing about his demise, using one of the Elves he stole from Cuivinen? He had one of his Orcs rape her, and she gave birth to Eol, who in turn, ensnared Aredhel, who gave birth to Maeglin. Why would he do this? Simple, to bring Maeglin into the world as his instrument against Turgon and his line.

That would also explain why he didn't torture him as badly as the other prisoners. Maeglin had been programmed to aid him from the get go. It was in his blood, and therefore he knew Maeglin wouldn't defy him as easily.

And when Maeglin was old enough, Morgoth instilled within him a desire to seek out Gondolin, just as Ulmo did with Tuor, as well as a desire to possess Idril, thus ensuring his path as the bringer of destruction for Gondolin, Turgon and Turgon's line.

Maeglin was literally programmed to betray Gondolin, and that's what 'the dark seed of evil' line (both in the song and the book) really means.

[Urwen]

Please share your thoughts on this.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Urwen

It was in his blood, and therefore he knew Maeglin wouldn't defy him as easily.

So, you're saying genetics determines behavior?

That stance is going to earn you a bit of dislike from... certain groups.

[Urwen]

Sometimes it does, according to several sources. Plus, in case you didn't notice from my recent posts, I am not anti-Maeglin, I am pro-Maeglin.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Sometimes it does, according to several sources. Plus, in case you didn't notice from my recent posts, I am not anti-Maeglin, I am pro-Maeglin.

But why do you think it's impossible to be pro-Maeglin without rewriting his story all the time? You keep trying to change his story to make excuses for him. Well, he did bad things, and it was his fault, and a made up excuse is not going to change that. Doesn't mean he's not an interesting character. By trying to explain away a character's shortcomings and blaming them on external sources you are actually making them a more boring character.


As for this specific theory, that implies Morgoth knew that Aredhel would be wandering about in that particular region of the world, and that Eol would have to know it too and marry her with the purpose of desteoying Gondolin... Not too complicated?

And dark seeds of evil. What's wrong with the more conventional interpretation of corrupted thought or spirit?

[Urwen]

Why do I keep doing it, you ask? Well, it is because I am pro-Maeglin, and hence I don't want him to die.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Why do I keep doing it, you ask? Well, it is because I am pro-Maeglin, and hence I don't want him to die.

That's like being pro-gravity and not wanting things to fall. If you like the character the way he was written, why would you want to change the way he was written?

Also, spoiler, but he still dies.

So I still don't get it. *shrugs*

[Urwen]

I never said I like him the way he was written, because his canonical-self dies, and I am not okay with that. You're the ones who like him the way he is written. You're the ones who are happy that he died.

Then again, you do have a point. If he were different, the reasons I started liking him in the first place would be gone. (I like tragic villains, okay?)

However, his death is still something I feel shouldn't have happened. Two sides of me warring over this: one side of me knows it had to have been, while the other side rejects that idea.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Then again, you do have a point. If he were different, the reasons I started liking him in the first place would be gone. (I like tragic villains, okay?)

Yeah, that's exactly my point (and I like tragic characters too, you're not the only one ). The beauty of tragic heroes and anti-heroes is the tragedy. You want it to not happen that way, but you also like the story because it happens that way. The joy is in the pain?

But it's not just about the tragic ending. The latest alternative history you propose here still maintains Maeglin's death, it just takes away the tragedy and complexity behind it. It isn't anymore the story of an outsider whose lust lead him to terrible moral decisions, a story of passion and motivation. Instead it's a story of a machine doing its job. If Maeglin was pre-programmed to do everything he's done, as you propose, the tragic aspect - the willingness to send the whole world to hell to get what he desires. He's Terminator, he isn't a person, isn't a complex character.

[Urwen]

And yet, I still didn't want him to die, just as I didn't want Feanor, Maedhros, Aredhel, Turin, Nienor, Tar-Miriel or Urwen to die.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

And yet, I still didn't want him to die, just as I didn't want Feanor, Maedhros, Aredhel, Turin, Nienor, Tar-Miriel or Urwen to die.

And isn't it great? Some of these characters did terrible things, and yet we still love them and don't want them to die! Doesn't that speak to the depth of these characters and the quality of the story?

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And isn't it great? Some of these characters did terrible things, and yet we still love them and don't want them to die! Doesn't that speak to the depth of these characters and the quality of the story?

Yes, but you forgot one little detail: they still died even though we didn't want them to die.

[Urwen]

So I recently stumbled upon a site which has a lot of alternative names for characters. Some I have unearthed:

Maeglin - Morleg, Glirhuin
Eol - Eor, Alvar
Aredhel: Rodwen
Earendil: Gaerdil, Aradamir, Horvendill, Orentil
Saeros: Orgof
Tuor: Eladar
Gwindor: Galweg
Turin: Gormagli