A hundredth re-read of the LotR

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

How the Ring verse got into Elven lore is no real puzzle at all, I think. .. How they heard it, or if only those who owned the Three heard it, is perhaps the only real puzzle. That and where Sauron learned how to make such nice poetry (though if he could invent the Black Speech, one might suppose that he if no one else could write poems in it ).

There is no puzzle indeed. The Elves of Eregion who wore the Rings at the moment when Sauron made the Ring-spell (SA 1600) heard it - and took the Rings off, never to wear again in the Second Age.
All the Rings were made for Elves: the 9 the 7 and the 3 alike. (The plan to give them to different reces was Sauron's alone). The Seven were all distributed among the Elves by the time Sauron attacked Eregion (SA 1695). The Nine not yet - they were still kept in the House of the Mirdain. The data are from UT "History of Galadriel and Celeborn"
Thus I believe in 1600, when the One Ring was made, at least 10 of the Mirdain heard Sauron's spell.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And as for how I understood the present for Dora, I always imagined it like that when writing to Bilbo and Frodo, she may have produced also lots of "by-products" or badly written letters which she later decided to throw away. However Bilbo's intention may be interpretated otherwise, I certainly wouldn't even think of looking for any sarcasm from the author's part in it.

Maybe you should think again

For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondance, with love from Bilbo; on a large waste-paper basket. Dora was Drogo's sister and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century.

To me this certainly is sarcasm both from Bilbo and the author. No doubt Bilbo was royally tired of being lectured about god knows what (likely how to be more respectable) and I imagine he also let Dora know as tactfully as he could that he had no need her "good" advice. She probably understood his wish for less junk-mail perfectly well too but ignored it completely. Thus, the large waste-basket symbolises what Bilbo thought of her advice and where her letters usually ended up. Rude? Yes I suppose so. Perhaps she deserved it.

Most of the presents Bilbo gave away (at least the mentioned ones) where attached with similar sarcastic puns and with, for the receiver, clear symbolic meaning. Lobelia gets silver spoons as a present (as opposed to the ones she had stolen earlier), Angelica gets a mirror (as she is all too fond of her reflected image) and Milo Burrows gets a golden pen and and ink bottle as he never responds to letters.

Hm. Actually there where other things I wanted to say but that will have to wait.

[alatar]

Completely unrelated, and hopelessly behind in the discussion, but if I don't note this now, I never will (which some of you may consider to have been the wiser choice):

The phrase 'as a rule' is used at least four to five times in the first two chapters. I think that there is a thread regarding this phrase, but not due to the number of times it is used. After this, I doubt that it will show up with as much frequency.

Such repetition!

[Nogrod]

Nice to see people discussing.. and sad to see that dying down that easily. But let's go forwards!

On Three is a Company the first thing that strikes my mind is the beauty of the way Tolkien describes the last days in Hobitton for Frodo, Sam and others. It really is something I really appreciate: the mood, the feeling, the detail; all serve to build for the more gloomier destiny that is about but it still fills the reader with the reminiscent feeling of the world there will be no more. It's plain genius.

There is another of my great favourites here in this chapter as well, meaning Bilbo's lore about paths and roads taking you where you don't know they might do. I remember when I was very young (like ten) and my father read the LotR to me as a bedtimestory that one thing made me wonder indeed. I spent hours and hours with the globe-ball (lighted inside) in my bedroom in the evenings when it was all dark around, looking for different ways the paths might bring one almost anywhere, and I was most disappointed with the seas!

But that really has been a thing that has followed me from that early childhood onwards. I'm still awed by the roads and paths... I mean be careful where you step into!

To make this even more interesting one might quote Gildor in the end of the chapter: "The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourself in, but you cannot forever fence it out". Talking about multiculturalism and the ways of the world today - Tolkien was just a prophet in this matter! These roads will make us meet "the other" before we make use of them ourselves to reach the other places (not counting the organised holiday trips that are more sham than real).


Also the elven attitudes to the hobbits is an interesting thing - how they kind of scorn and play them as fools before they actually notice it's Frodo (the heir of Bilbo) and how grave their quest is... But still they don't give them more help but a promise to send their "message throught the lands".

Is it only a literary question (they shouldn't have too great a help with their journey for the storyline's sake) or are the elves so disenchanted with the ME that they just don't bother to help more?

[Nogrod]

And surely I'm not the only one to whom the appearance of the first black rider was a terrifying experience when being read that part of the story!

Such intensly written!

Funny that the second appearance of the Nazgûl now feels even more frightening!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Is it only a literary question (they shouldn't have too great a help with their journey for the storyline's sake) or are the elves so disenchanted with the ME that they just don't bother to help more?

I now cannot find where, but I am pretty sure this has been discussed (relatively, possibly this spring at most - maybe) recently in some thread, and there were some quite good and reasonable contributions to it. If I happen to find it, I will post a link here. I think some of the basic ideas were simply that it wasn't "their job", and ... but there was more to it. A pity I don't remember.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I now cannot find where, but I am pretty sure this has been discussed (relatively, possibly this spring at most - maybe) recently in some thread, and there were some quite good and reasonable contributions to it. If I happen to find it, I will post a link here. I think some of the basic ideas were simply that it wasn't "their job", and ... but there was more to it. A pity I don't remember.

I believe you mean this: The Ultimate Discourse About Gildor.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I also referred to this particular chapter, Gildor, and the attitude of many Elves, in the "Is Legolas Afraid to get his Nails Dirty?" thread.

Strangely, when I first read LotR, I was much less impressed by the Black Rider in this chapter than I was with the wandering company of Elves. In reflection, it amazes me how many notable quotes came out in this chapter. "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards..."; "Go not to the Elves..."; "A star shines on the hour of our meeting" -- there may well be more, though I don't have the book on hand to check.

[Boromir88]

Nice to see people discussing.. and sad to see that dying down that easily. But let's go forwards!~Nogrod

Just waiting on your guidance sir.

One quick thing to point out before I leave, than I will properly respond. The very last sentence of the chapter...

...and the Elf led him to a bower beside Pippin, and he threw himself upon a bed and fell at once into a dreamless slumber.~Three is Company

Technically there never is a "dreamless" slumber, as we have countless dreams every night, we just don't remember them. But, just that idea of a "dreamless" slumber, once that is uninterrupting, a good, straight, replenishing sleep is pleasant. And of course, once Frodo leaves the Elves how many more of these "dreamless slumbers" does he really have?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Technically there never is a "dreamless" slumber, as we have countless dreams every night, we just don't remember them. But, just that idea of a "dreamless" slumber, once that is uninterrupting, a good, straight, replenishing sleep is pleasant. And of course, once Frodo leaves the Elves how many more of these "dreamless slumbers" does he really have?

Frodo's known for his vivid dreams, so its quite notable that he has a good night's sleep without being troubled by dreams. I know how he feels because I'm sick and fed up with having overly vivid dreams

But I often think it could have something to do with the 'difference' of Elves, maybe even with my old favourite topic, sanwe. It's quite possible the Elves helped him have that 'dreamless' sleep.

Very interesting though, as if I was writing about someone laying down to sleep in the company of Elves, I'd be more likely to write of someone having quite wild dreams

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But I often think it could have something to do with the 'difference' of Elves, maybe even with my old favourite topic, sanwe. It's quite possible the Elves helped him have that 'dreamless' sleep.

Very interesting though, as if I was writing about someone laying down to sleep in the company of Elves, I'd be more likely to write of someone having quite wild dreams

Yes, and that's exactly what this speaks about - the complete rest, as it was said early. And I am quite convinced that it was because of the Elves that he had this dreamless sleep.

[Boromir88]

Is it only a literary question (they shouldn't have too great a help with their journey for the storyline's sake) or are the elves so disenchanted with the ME that they just don't bother to help more?

Well there are certainly active elves in Middle-earth. I think Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Thranduil, Haldir, and the many others who defended their lands/fought against Sauron would beg to differ. Elrond and Galadriel are certainly two of the most important people, to Frodo and his quest, in the story. But, we can get to them when their time comes, this I would guess is asking about Gildor.

Is it a literary question? Probably, but I don't think it's one that says "We can't have Gildor help Frodo, nothing to see here, moving on." This short encounter, with Gildor, brings out several things...

This is Sam's first time meeting Elves, and no surprise he's giddy and speechless.

I find it interesting Gildor's refusal to tell Frodo anything more about the Black Riders other than "Stay away from them!" This is the reader's (and Frodo's) first encounter with the Black Riders. I believe this is the first chapter they are mentioned (I forget whether they're mentioned in passing in The Shadow of the Past, but I don't think there's any connection made between the Nine Rings given to Men and these "Black Riders.")

Thus the Black Riders are still an enigma to Frodo, and also perhaps that's how Tolkien wanted the readers to think of them. There are dark, creepy, sniffing guys on horses running around asking about Frodo. Pippin even raises the question of how many? Was this just one creepy guy seen twice, or two different creepy guys? Frodo is lost, confused, he doesn't have Gandalf around, he doesn't know who is after him, how many, or why. And Tolkien might be placing the reader in Frodo's shoes to capture his audience. Having Gildor spill the beans about the Black Riders at this point would ruin it. They are far more unsettlings as unnamed, creepy, dark, sniffing guys who ride large evil black horses.

Also, I believe as someone else mentioned this is the first time Frodo finds "unexpected" help along his journey. Consider these comments from another author; Ursula LeGuin:

"the peculiar rhythm of the book, its continual alternation of distress and relief, threat and reassurance, tension and relaxation: the rocking-horse gait (which is precisely what makes the huge book readable to a child of nine or ten) ...."

Frodo has just had two suspensful, somewhat threatening encounters (his interesting urge to put on the Ring when the Black Riders are close), an then the mood relaxes. Frodo is with the Elves, he has a dreamless sleep, he is refreshed. This rythm continues throughout the story, the Barrow-wight - Tom Bombadil, Moria - Lothlorien, and so on...

Although I will add with LeGuin, in that you don't have to be nine or ten to love the rythm of the story, as a close to an "over the hill" adult, the tension-relaxation, stress-relief flow of the story makes it very exciting.

[Peregrin Took]

Hey everybody, I'm glad to be joining this discussion! This is MatthewM, by the way. This is my new username.

To the book!

Three is Company is without a doubt one of my favorite chapters in the whole story. Three of the main hobbits, Frodo, Pippin, and Sam leaving their comfortable homes and beginning on their long journey through the Shire, and then beyond. I can picture the story extraordinarily well during this chapter, and simply put, it touches my soul.

This passage in particular always pulls at me:

"Well, now we're off at last!" said Frodo. They shouldered their packs and took up their sticks, and walked round the corner to the west side of Bag End. "Good-bye!" said Frodo, looking at the dark blank windows. He waved his hand, and then turned and (following Bilbo, if he had known it) hurried after Peregrin down the garden-path. They jumped over the low place in the hedge at the bottom and took to the fields, passing into the darkness like a rustle in the grasses.

Amazing.

I was definitely freightened when the Black Rider appears for the first time! That is another power of Tolkien's...to actually scare you. There aren't many writers that can do that. The second time he appears is equally as scary...you can relate especially if you've been in a sort of situation like that before (minus the Rider in Black)!

The meeting with the Elves is truly magical. I find it interesting, like has been noted, that the Elves treat the hobbits almost as fools. Their tune does change though when they are told of the Riders and the danger the hobbits are in. So, although the Elves seem to misunderstand hobbits (like Men), after they were informed of their crisis they did treat them with respect. I noticed the same thing as Ibrîniðilpathânezel - there are so many memorable quotes in Gildor and Frodo's speech together.

To end, this chapter will always be close to my heart and I am glad to have discovered this thread at this time!

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And surely I'm not the only one to whom the appearance of the first black rider was a terrifying experience when being read that part of the story!

Such intensly written!

Funny that the second appearance of the Nazgûl now feels even more frightening!

It's a shame, but I can't remember a first time when I read about the black riders, a time when I didn't already know what they were and could share the Hobbits fear of the unknown. There must have been a first time of course, but I've no recollection of it sadly, perhaps because I was so young when I first read the book. When rereading it though, I agree that it is during the first few chapters the Riders are the scariest. It's often like that. isn't it? When the danger is only suggested, it seems much more deadly. In the Shire you feel that if the riders were to catch Frodo on the road it would end in indescribable horror, there and then. Later on, when we learn more of the Nazgul, and when they fail to take the ring despite several excellent opportunities, their aura of dread also dissipates somewhat.

These first chapters of the first book are, and will always remain, my favourite part of the trilogy. Here, in familiar, very non-fantasy surroundings, the story begins and is masterfully built up. In similar fashion to why the Nazgul are most effective here in my mind, I also think the suggestion of Mordor and all the other amazing places and people that we are later taken to are most thrilling when we can only imagine them from sparse second hand information. When it is later written down plainly in detail some of the magic is lost. This, I suppose is the reason why I enjoy the Silmarillion so much (not saying I don't enjoy LotR mind you). Since the narrative is so compressed and distant, it leaves a lot of space for your imagination to fill in. A few lines in the Silm have conjured up fantastic visions in my mind. But now we're talking about LotR...

This chapter is the foremost hiking chapter too, isn't it? The Hobbits' trek across the Shire is described in great detail, and although there are many other such scenes later on in the books there are hardly any better ones. Is there anyone who can read this chapter without wishing that they were out walking in Woods End of the Shire glancing back at the lights of Hobbiton (without the pursuing black riders of course)?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

This chapter is the foremost hiking chapter too, isn't it? The Hobbits' trek across the Shire is described in great detail, and although there are many other such scenes later on in the books there are hardly any better ones. Is there anyone who can read this chapter without wishing that they were out walking in Woods End of the Shire glancing back at the lights of Hobbiton (without the pursuing black riders of course)?

Indeed, you got it here! At least for me, no way. And I wouldn't perhaps mind even the Black Riders, when it comes to that.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Technically there never is a "dreamless" slumber, as we have countless dreams every night, we just don't remember them. But, just that idea of a "dreamless" slumber, once that is uninterrupting, a good, straight, replenishing sleep is pleasant. And of course, once Frodo leaves the Elves how many more of these "dreamless slumbers" does he really have?

Hmmm...perhaps he had Sleep Apnea and could not reach the REM stage of sleep, wherein dreams do come. Hobbits, being prone to obesity, could certainly be susceptible to that syndrome.

*Crickets*

Ummm...sorry for the awkward intro, but I've come late to the discussion, and I promise to be more topically relevant as the story progresses.

Originally Posted by skip spence

This chapter is the foremost hiking chapter too, isn't it? The Hobbits' trek across the Shire is described in great detail, and although there are many other such scenes later on in the books there are hardly any better ones. Is there anyone who can read this chapter without wishing that they were out walking in Woods End of the Shire glancing back at the lights of Hobbiton (without the pursuing black riders of course)?

I agree with your view of hiking regarding this chapter. It seems to always gets me in the mood for a camping trip. In fact, as it is Sunday, this entire discussion has given me the urge to go for a hike; therefore, I've decided to drag my daughter off on a fall color tour this afternoon.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And surely I'm not the only one to whom the appearance of the first black rider was a terrifying experience when being read that part of the story!

I nearly forgot that it was the first time that the reader gets a peek at the Nazgul. Although I must admit that it wasn't too scary for me when the Nazgul made his first appearance, it's when you find out that it's tracking the Hobbits that you get scared.

I thought that is was pretty neat the way that Tolkien sets up the atmospere around Frodo's leaving acting as if it was nothing and then WHAM, out of nowhere the adventure begins!

There is not really much to write about for this chapter, other than it's delightfully written and it's the fist step in the ladder in Frodo's long adventure. Anyway, we get a little bit of wisdom out of the chapter from Frodo: "Never go to the Elves for counsil..." Did you hear that Legate?

I'll see if I can get a post up tomorrow for the next chapter, I think we're done with Three is Company, aren't we?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Anyway, we get a little bit of wisdom out of the chapter from Frodo: "Never go to the Elves for counsil..." Did you hear that Legate?

I wonder what was that supposed to mean...???

[alatar]

Speaking of the Nazgul, why does everyone after the hobbits' example call them 'the Black Riders' and yet know that these are 'THE' Black Riders? Hasn't any other group of humans ever ridden garbed in black? Had the Nazgul always ridden thus?

When Frodo and the hobbits meet with Gildor and the elves, everyone speaks of the Black Riders like the words have only one universal meaning. It's as if they are saying 'dragons' - a specific threat of known form. But the words black riders are too generic to carry the same specificity.

What if Frodo et al had called them the 'Saddled Snufflers?' Would Gildor have been taken aback at hearing that the snufflers rode again?

And speaking of sniffing, why does Tolkien via mostly Pippin make such a big deal that the creatures hunt by smell, and yet later on this becomes a pretty boring detail?

[Peregrin Took]

Originally Posted by skip spence

This chapter is the foremost hiking chapter too, isn't it? The Hobbits' trek across the Shire is described in great detail, and although there are many other such scenes later on in the books there are hardly any better ones. Is there anyone who can read this chapter without wishing that they were out walking in Woods End of the Shire glancing back at the lights of Hobbiton (without the pursuing black riders of course)?

I wholeheartedly agree! I wish it everytime.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by alatar

Speaking of the Nazgul, why does everyone after the hobbits' example call them 'the Black Riders' and yet know that these are 'THE' Black Riders? Hasn't any other group of humans ever ridden garbed in black? Had the Nazgul always ridden thus?

That's a good point. Especially since the Nazgul had not been seen west of Anduin in many centuries I'd say it's a tad hasty concluding that the black riders Frodo refers to must be the Nine. I suppose it could be argued that Gildor could read much more than what was actually said in Frodo's eyes.

Originally Posted by FotR

'You do not ask me or tell me much that concerns yourself, Frodo', said Gildor. 'But I already know a little, and I can read more in your face and in the thought behind your questions.

But how could Gildor read in Frodo's eyes that the Nine were pursuing him, if Frodo himself knew little or nothing about who they were, or at least did not know clearly that it was they who pursued him? The only satisfying answer I can come up with it that they already knew the Nazgul were about. But did they also know about the quest, why the Nine were after Frodo? No, says Gildor and I've no reason not to believe that. After all, if he knew Frodo were carrying the One ring which, if it came into the hands of the Nine, would surely put Middle Earth firmly in Sauron's grasp for an unforeseeable future, they would surely offer more assistance then a few reluctant pointers and a lecture about how little they care about the troubles of puny Hobbits and Men.

Originally Posted by Morth

I agree with your view of hiking regarding this chapter. It seems to always gets me in the mood for a camping trip. In fact, as it is Sunday, this entire discussion has given me the urge to go for a hike; therefore, I've decided to drag my daughter off on a fall color tour this afternoon.

Sounds like a good idea. I did the same this Sunday (minus the daughter) and even brought a camera. Here's a few samples of fall in Skåne, Sweden:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...e/DSCN1841.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../DSCN1860b.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...e/DSCN1850.jpg

[alatar]

Originally Posted by skip spence

That's a good point. Especially since the Nazgul had not been seen west of Anduin in many centuries I'd say it's a tad hasty concluding that the black riders Frodo refers must be the Nine. I suppose it could be argued that Gildor could read much more than what was actually said in Frodo's eyes.

That's what I thought, especially as we don't know their number, which, at this time, is either one or two. Maybe Mordor bred some new evil, like Mouth, that was searching the Shire. Pretty big jump to assume the Nine.

But how could Gildor read in Frodo's eyes that the Nine were pursuing him, if Frodo himself knew little or nothing about how they were, or at least did not know clearly that it was they who pursued him? The only satisfying answer I can come up with it that they already knew the Nazgul were about. But did they also know about the quest, why the Nine were after Frodo? No, says Gildor and I've no reason not to believe that. After all, if he knew Frodo were carrying the One ring which, if it came in the hands of the Nine, would surely put Middle Earth firmly in Sauron's grasp for an unforeseeable time, they would surely offer more assistance then a few reluctant pointers and a lecture about how little they care about the troubles of puny Hobbits and Men.

Odd, that. Maybe Gildor tapped into that foresight that is given at times to his people, and 'read a few chapters ahead.' And leaving the Hobbits with their burden was a deft plan to foil the enemy - nothing puts off Black Riders like random acts of stupidity (i.e. getting lost, getting caught by the Willow, getting caught by the Wights, putting on the Ring in Bree, etc).

Sounds like a good idea. I did the same this Sunday (minus the daughter) and even brought a camera. Here's a few samples of fall in Skåne, Sweden:

Great pictures! That cow looks dangerous.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by skip spence

But how could Gildor read in Frodo's eyes that the Nine were pursuing him, if Frodo himself knew little or nothing about how they were, or at least did not know clearly that it was they who pursued him?

Possibly because he had never seen such terror in the eyes of a hobbit? And possibly because the last time he had seen such terror in anyone's eyes, it was the result of an encounter with a Nazgul, whose chief weapon, we are told, is fear? Well, it's a mite of a long shot, but I suspect Gildor and his company, being wanderers, hear a lot of news and rumors that others might not. That Sauron has returned to Mordor is not uncommon knowledge, and at least some of the Nazgul have been active long before it was known he had returned. The Witch King, after all, merely fled the wars in Angmar; he was not defeated, and the Elves certainly knew it would only be a matter of time before he and the others became active again. It seems that outside the Shire, just about everyone is aware that evil things are stirring, and adding "terrifying evil" to "riders in Black" might very well make any Elf who's been around a while think "Nazgul."

Then again, maybe not, but what the heck.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I wonder what was that supposed to mean...???

Aren't you the one who people refer to as an elf? I thought I heard Nogrod talking about it somewhere in the Downs, but I might have been mistaken, sorry.

[Thinlómien]

I like this chapter very much. It has a wonderful atmosphere and it features two of my favourite minor characters - the fox and Gildor Inglorion. The fox - much discussed elsewhere, I think - is an intriguing little glimpse to something, and Gildor is a very charming Elf. Well, I think he's funny and he indeed seems to have his way with words and has some wise thoughts. All the talk about fencing the world out always makes a shiver go down my spine.

Originally Posted by alatar

And speaking of sniffing, why does Tolkien via mostly Pippin make such a big deal that the creatures hunt by smell, and yet later on this becomes a pretty boring detail?

Boring detail? Like, do you mean that it becomes a trivial fact and is not used anymore?

One thing I really admire in Tolkien's writing in this chapter is how the Nazgûl's visit to Hobbiton is organised. How Frodo hears the dialogue and almosts goes to talk with the Gaffer, and how Sam later expands upon this. It's what I would call masterful storytelling.

Also, I realised I like Sam less when I read about him in English than in Finnish. Weird.

And Pippin then, he gives me the impression of a young aristocrat on a nice little trip - which is what he is. But it never struck me like that. Actually, he reminds me (to an extent) of the men in the novels of Jane Austen, for example.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Boring detail? Like, do you mean that it becomes a trivial fact and is not used anymore?

Okay, look at from my point of view: even at an early age I was into science. We read about all of this sniffing. "Don't forget to ask about the sniffing!" It is emphasized, and so it must be important. Something completely unusual about these unearthly creatures...

And what does it all mean? That they smell our blood or something?

Does that mean that the Nazgul are going to the dogs?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

Okay, look at from my point of view: even at an early age I was into science. We read about all of this sniffing. "Don't forget to ask about the sniffing!" It is emphasized, and so it must be important. Something completely unusual about these unearthly creatures...

And what does it all mean? That they smell our blood or something?

Does that mean that the Nazgul are going to the dogs?

Hey, but what exactly do you lack there? It's discussed at the Weathertop, Merry or who is it asks that once again ("They seem to use more their smell than their sight" or something like that), and then there follows this explanation of the Nazgul's senses in daylight etc.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Hey, but what exactly do you lack there?

It just seems a bit overhyped earlier in the story. I withdraw the nitpicking observation.

[Lalwendë]

A few things from this chapter...because some proper posting will do me good .....

At the south end of the greensward there was an opening. There the green floor ran on into the wood, and formed a wide space like a hall, roofed by the boughs of trees. Their great trunks ran like pillars down each side. In the middle there was a wood-fire blazing, and upon the tree-pillars torches with lights of gold and silver were burning steadily. The Elves sat round the fire upon the grass or upon the sawn rings of old trunks. Some went to and fro bearing cups and pouring drink; others brought food on heaped plates and dishes.

This has always reminded me of tales of Druidic groves, sacred spaces formed by great Oaks, almost like buildings. I think from reading that for the very first time in my early teens I started thinking of Elves as these magical creatures, as if they held some 'secret'. This might be the beginning of a journey for the Hobbits, but that was also a great beginning for me. In my quest to find out this magical secret of the Elves I've spent the years since delving into history, folklore, all kinds of things. I've never found that secret yet though.

And is it an old, old place, a grove used by other Elves? It sounds like it...

Sam could never describe in words, nor picture clearly to himself, what he felt or thought that night, though it remained in his memory as one of the chief events of his life.

That chimes with my own feelings when I pick up that old copy of Fellowship and feel that intangible thrill I felt when I was first reading the book. It takes me right back, but there's no way I could describe how I felt, and how I still feel like that when I pick up that old book, which is by me now.

To tell the truth, he was very reluctant to start, now that it had come to the point. Bag End seemed a more desirable residence than it had for years, and he wanted to savour as much as he could of his last summer in the Shire. When autumn came, he knew that part at least of his heart would think more kindly of journeying, as it always did at that season. He had indeed privately made up his mind to leave on his fiftieth birthday: Bilbo's one hundred and twentyeighth. It seemed somehow the proper day on which to set out and follow him. Following Bilbo was uppermost in his mind, and the one thing that made the thought of leaving bearable.

This is why I love the early chapters of the book so much. It's the sense of loss. After having been made to feel right at home in The Shire, a familiar place enough to anyone brought up in the English countryside, you have to leave it with Frodo, and his feelings are the same as my own when I have to leave behind a place I love. There's a journey you've been itching to get started on but when it comes to it, you delay leaving.

I understand that need to 'savour' too, to get your fill of the familiar places you've loved and yet in some way also found boring - when you have to leave them they suddenly don't seem so dull any more, but precious.

Anyway, I'll leave it here for tonight with a piece of Tolkien's writing that might not be about Elves, is not about a glorious city, or a furious battle, nor even about a beautiful foreign land, but about home and probably one of my favourite descriptions of anything in Middle-earth. I've often posted about how when I hear Vaughan Williams music I think of Bilbo and Frodo having to leave The Shire behind and this is what I always think of:

For a short way they followed the lane westwards. Then leaving it they turned left and took quietly to the fields again. They went in single file along hedgerows and the borders of coppices, and night fell dark about them. In their dark cloaks they were as invisible as if they all had magic rings. ..........After some time they crossed the Water, west of Hobbiton, by a narrow plank-bridge. The stream was there no more than a winding black ribbon, bordered with leaning alder-trees. A mile or two further south they hastily crossed the great road from the Brandywine Bridge; they were now in the Tookland, and bending southeastwards they made for the Green Hill Country. As they began to climb its first slopes they looked back and saw the lamps in Hobbiton far off twinkling in the gentle valley of the Water. Soon it disappeared in the folds of the darkened land, and was followed by Bywater beside its grey pool. When the light of the last farm was far behind, peeping among the trees, Frodo turned and waved a hand in farewell. 'I wonder if I shall ever look down into that valley again,' he said quietly.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Lalwendë, your mention of Vaughn Williams' music (are you familiar with his song "The Twilight People"? I sang it back in college, and it has always made me think of the Elves and Men of ME) made me think of something else about this chapter. Being a musician, I always paid a lot of attention to the various songs and poems (sang Donald Swann's "The Road Goes Ever On" cycle back in college, too, and wrote settings for just about every other song in the book quite some time ago). In the song "Upon the Hearth," I always found one part in particular quite curious:

But not yet weary are our feet,
Still round the corner we may meet
A sudden tree or standing stone
That none have seen but we alone.

The curious part, to me, is the "standing stone." Other than this mention in the song, the Three Farthing Stone is the only other mention of such a thing in the Shire, and that seems to be more of a mile marker than a megalith, such as those that are found in the "real" world. It just always struck me as an odd thing to find in a Hobbit walking song, since (given size and culture) they seem to me to be the least likely people to be raising such things. Then again, the reference may be to finding a surprise of something that was NOT raised by Hobbits, especially since Bilbo wrote the song. I can't imagine any proper adventure-adverse Hobbit wanting to sing about taking "the hidden paths that run toward the Moon and to the Sun."

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

The curious part, to me, is the "standing stone." Other than this mention in the song, the Three Farthing Stone is the only other mention of such a thing in the Shire, and that seems to be more of a mile marker than a megalith, such as those that are found in the "real" world. It just always struck me as an odd thing to find in a Hobbit walking song, since (given size and culture) they seem to me to be the least likely people to be raising such things. Then again, the reference may be to finding a surprise of something that was NOT raised by Hobbits, especially since Bilbo wrote the song. I can't imagine any proper adventure-adverse Hobbit wanting to sing about taking "the hidden paths that run toward the Moon and to the Sun."

It's yet another layer to the text which makes The Shire resonant of the real world. They have Barrows and megaliths just as we do, and they have stories about them just as we do - and what's even better is that while they can make some decent guesses as to who might have constructed the barrows, the megaliths remain enigmatic; our archaeologists can make some good guesses about the inhabitants of barrows but our megaliths remain a mystery.

As to Hobbits singing of adventure - maybe they do this instead of going on them? In much the same way I like reading travel books but I haven't got a passport because I'm not going to go anywhere? I am growing more like a Hobbit every day

I wonder if the Three Farthing Stone was put there by Hobbits or was there already? If it was already in situ then the Hobbits must have formed their administrative boundaries around it, which is pretty cool.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

As to Hobbits singing of adventure - maybe they do this instead of going on them? In much the same way I like reading travel books but I haven't got a passport because I'm not going to go anywhere? I am growing more like a Hobbit every day

I wonder if the Three Farthing Stone was put there by Hobbits or was there already? If it was already in situ then the Hobbits must have formed their administrative boundaries around it, which is pretty cool.

I suspect that Hobbits who publicly sang any song written by Bilbo (such as this one) would be looked upon rather like someone today singing off-color ditties in public: not really respectable and someone to be frowned upon. Or drunk.

And I suppose the origins of the Three Farthing Stone would depend on how big it is. If it's small, the Hobbits might have put it up themselves, but if it's large, I might think it was a remnant of Men or Elves who once lived in or traveled through that part of Eriador. I tend to like the latter possibility better, because it would be in keeping with the practical nature of Hobbits to make use of something they found that was unique, and would also indicate that not all Hobbits are (or perhaps Hobbits weren't always) so insular that they fear all things that have the faintest whiff of the world outside the Shire.

[Groin Redbeard]

I'll wait for Nogrod to post before I move on to the next chapter since we still have a disscussion going on about Three Is Company.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Gildor is a very charming Elf. Well, I think he's funny and he indeed seems to have his way with words and has some wise thoughts. All the talk about fencing the world out always makes a shiver go down my spine.

Is Gildor one of the Teleri? His attitude certainly doesn't strike me as being one of the more serious Noldor, he's much to silly and happy.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Is Gildor one of the Teleri? His attitude certainly doesn't strike me as being one of the more serious Noldor, he's much to silly and happy.

No, he's definitely one of the Noldor. If you recall, he introduces himself as Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod and an Exile. Also, the narrator and Frodo note a few times that Gildor's company are High Elves (mentioning the name of Elbereth and speaking Quenya and all that).

I think Gildor's merriness and even occasional silliness is rather refreshing after all the proud and serious Noldorin lords. (Don't get me wrong though, they are one of my favourites nevertheless. ) I think he actually illustrates rather well the two sides of how the Elves seem to mortals: the tra-lal-lal-ly side and the noble and serious side. Almost all other Elves in Tolkien's writing are just either of these types but Gildor is a healthy (and credibly written!) mixture of them both. I guess that's why I like him so much.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

And I suppose the origins of the Three Farthing Stone would depend on how big it is. If it's small, the Hobbits might have put it up themselves, but if it's large, I might think it was a remnant of Men or Elves who once lived in or traveled through that part of Eriador. I tend to like the latter possibility better, because it would be in keeping with the practical nature of Hobbits to make use of something they found that was unique, and would also indicate that not all Hobbits are (or perhaps Hobbits weren't always) so insular that they fear all things that have the faintest whiff of the world outside the Shire.

Hobbits were definitely not always so insular as they must have at one time travelled a long way to find their new lands. Though having once found such a thoroughly pleasant place, who could blame them for wanting to stay put?

I'm going to have to look up some books and see what I can find about the Three Farthing Stone, if anything! It must have formed an interesting contrast with the memorial to the Battle of Bywater. Which makes me think about the real life village near Stonyhurst, Bolton-by-Bowland which is about as close to Hobbiton as you are likely to ever get and has a war memorial on the green near the remains of an ancient cross...

...I'm rambling again

Originally Posted by Lommy

I think Gildor's merriness and even occasional silliness is rather refreshing after all the proud and serious Noldorin lords. (Don't get me wrong though, they are one of my favourites nevertheless. ) I think he actually illustrates rather well the two sides of how the Elves seem to mortals: the tra-lal-lal-ly side and the noble and serious side. Almost all other Elves in Tolkien's writing are just either of these types but Gildor is a healthy (and credibly written!) mixture of them both. I guess that's why I like him so much.

Yes! I always laugh at the Elves here as they seem so much more like the light-hearted Elves we meet in The Hobbit. My serious mind thinks that this was Tolkien attempting to make a 'bridge' between the silly Hobbit Elves and the serious Rings Elves. My silly side thinks maybe Gildor's party were wandering around as they couldn't have much of a laugh with Elrond

[Thinlómien]

This thread is obviously in need of a new topic, and I finished reading the next chapter yesterday, so let's get this going...

You won't get a detailed and thoughtful kick-off from me because I'm simply unable to make those , but I will say a few things about this chapter.

When this chapter was last discussed (here), many people seemed to talk about this as a cheerful and funny chapter. However, like I said back then, this has always been a rather scary chapter for me. Here's what I said about the topic when it was discussed in February:

Originally Posted by me on the CbC thread for this chapter

I mean, look at these quotes:

Every time I read them, they just make a chill run down my spine. They must be among the creepiest passages in the whole book.

Also, the episode of Merry The Black Rider is very scary. I remember when my father read LotR aloud to me and my little sister when we were about 6 and 4 years old and that passage was simply horror. I was sure the Black Riders had finally found them and I was so relieved when it turned out that the rider was Merry. The passage is very impressive - especially as when something is read aloud to you, you can't even accidentally see the next phrases that reveal the truth.

So, which one is this chapter for you? Scary or funny? Or maybe both? And why do you think so?

In this chapter, we have the memorable saying "Short cuts make long delays." I'm wondering, is that originally invented by Tolkien, or has he picked it from somewhere? (I've never heard it anywhere else, which of course doesn't mean anything since I'm not a native speaker... But I haven't heard the Finnish equivalent of it either.)

We also meet farmer Maggot in this chapter. He seems to be one of those characters everybody likes. I don't think I've ever met anyone who wouldn't like him.

Speaking of him, his land is called Bamfurlong. I've never paid it any attention to it before, but now it strikes me as weird. It doesn't sound very Hobbitish and as a word, it doesn't make any sense to me. Does anyone know where the name comes from or what does it mean? As soon as I get home, I'm going to see how it's translated in the Finnish version...

Latsly, I've always liked the beginning of this chapter and the thoughtful dialogue. This time, I was especially touched by Sam's words:

"Yes, sir. I don't know how to say it, but after last night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want - I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me."

Quite beautifully said, isn't it?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Well, I'm severely allergic to mushrooms, so I guess I'd fall into the "scared" camp.

Actually, I always found Farmer Maggot to be an interesting indication that not all hobbits are what many of the Big People think them to be. He defends his property, tells a Nazgul to get lost, and thinks that the rather more stuffy folk of Hobbiton are strange. Perhaps he is a reflection of "country" versus "town" hobbits -- and if so, he may well be an indication that the true mettle of hobbits lies not with its citified gentry, but with its common farmers, who love the land so well, they will rise up to defend it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Only chiming in with a short comment...

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Actually, I always found Farmer Maggot to be an interesting indication that not all hobbits are what many of the Big People think them to be. He defends his property, tells a Nazgul to get lost, and thinks that the rather more stuffy folk of Hobbiton are strange.

I agree with everything you say, except for the last one - that is not an indication of anything special. He is just the same as the hobbits of Bag-End in this, it is simply the "regional xenophobia", or how to call that. Sure you know that from your country, wherever you live, too - I think it must be the same all over the world: hobbits from Hobbitton say (at the beginning of the book, in the pub I think - it is Gaffer if I recall correctly) that the Bucklanders are strange, and a hobbit from the east (Maggot) says that people of Hobbitton are strange (in which I find a kind of funny resonation, at least I always took it as an intentional writer's joke). Pretty normal even in our world.

And as for this chapter being funny or scary, I gave some grounds on that in the thread quoted during the first reading - let me just say here that I do not find it that scary, since this is still the Shire, and it is friendly and... it is just like here now. (I said even about the chapter before that I would actually enjoy the night walk with the Hobbits, even with the Black Riders. It's great!)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I agree with everything you say, except for the last one - that is not an indication of anything special. He is just the same as the hobbits of Bag-End in this, it is simply the "regional xenophobia", or how to call that. Sure you know that from your country, wherever you live, too - I think it must be the same all over the world: hobbits from Hobbitton say (at the beginning of the book, in the pub I think - it is Gaffer if I recall correctly) that the Bucklanders are strange, and a hobbit from the east (Maggot) says that people of Hobbitton are strange (in which I find a kind of funny resonation, at least I always took it as an intentional writer's joke). Pretty normal even in our world.

Oh, certainly, you find regional prejudices, even within some cities. A very normal situation. But Maggot does seem, to me at least, a little more willing to do what Big Folk don't seem to think hobbits in general will do, that being stand up to protect himself and his land rather than run and hide and let someone else do it. Which, no doubt, is a Big People prejudice toward Hobbits, who feel a need to protect (or exploit) them because they think they're all afraid of the world. Maggot rather plainly isn't; he didn't need to be put into much of a pinch before he showed what was in him.

[alatar]

Okay, so I just want to show that I'm not crazy. Anyway, here are direct quotes from "Three is Company" that made me think that 'sniffing' was to be a big deal (and note the emphasis seen is from the original text - not added):

• From inside the hood came a noise as of someone sniffing to catch an elusive scent; the head turned from side to side of the road.

• 'I can't say why, but I felt certain he was looking or smelling for me;

• 'What about the smelling, sir?' said Sam.

• 'Your talk of sniffing riders with invisible noses has unsettled me.'

• 'Very well!' said Pippin. 'But don't forget the sniffing!'

• Frodo thought he heard the sound of snuffling.

We get more in 'A Short Cut to Mushrooms'. And after all of this, the explanation we learn is (to jump ahead to the chapter "A Knife in the Dark'):

Originally Posted by Strider on Weathertop

And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it.

Almost as anticlimatic as this post.