Marriage in Middle-earth I (happy)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Upon reading the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, I have been pondering on marriages that Tolkien writes about. How are they described? What makes the difference between a good and a poor, even catastrophic, marriage? On this thread, let’s look at the positive examples; I will start another with the negative ones.
One very interesting good marriage is that of Melian and Thingol, written about in The Silmarillion. Melian was a Maia who left Valinor to live in Middle-earth. Elwë, lord of the Teleri (elves) heard her singing and was enchanted for years; she became his wife and Queen, since he later became King of the Sindar and was called Thingol. Together, they built a kingdom that lasted long as a refuge against evil. Melian lent Thingol great power, which she had as a Maia, and counseled him with great wisdom, so that he was a mighty and wise ruler. Luthien Tinuviel, most beautiful of all Children of Iluvatar, was their daughter.
What made their marriage good?
First thing that springs to mind is that it was a marriage of unequals, a Maia and an Elf. But they not only loved each other, they respected one another’s abilities. Thingol learned from Melian’s wisdom and took her counsel. She did not try to rule, but taught with wisdom, recognizing his abilities as a ruler. She did not deny her power and capabilities to try to be like him, but enhanced him and raised him up to greater heights than he could have achieved alone. They had a common goal, building their kingdom, and reached that goal together.
Mutual love, respect and a goal to be reached together are the aspects I have found in studying their marriage. I would like to hear what others consider important about Melian and Thingol, then we can go on to other good marriages of Middle-earth.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

The marriage between Earendil and Elwing was happy. Reasons... when they were given the choice between being mortal and being immortal he let her choose first. She chose to remain immortal and he chose the same so that they could remain together (even though it meant that he could never return to mortal lands). She also cast herself in the sea to save the Silmaril from the sons of Feanor & she was lifted up by Ulmo and flew to Earendil on his ship in the form of the bird so that they may be together.
I see this as a good marriage because it seems as though they were very much in love.

[Lomelinde]

Ok, I'm going to name the obvious one:Celeborn and Galadriel. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] They were married for only God knows how long, and yet after thousands of years of marriage,still loved each other.Galadriel did part from Celeborn for a while, but they reunited in the Undying Lands eventually and lived happily ever after. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (This is where everybody goes "Awwww!" [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] )

[Aralaithiel]

Aaaaawwwwwwwww! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Arwen Imladris]

Has anyone said Beren and Luthian yet? I thought they were pretty happy.

[Amarinth]

melian being a maia is also something else --she is definitely much more powerful than thingol, and much more wiser. in the instance when thingol aksed a silmaril from beren in exchange of consent for marrying luthien, melian at once knew fully well that thingol had been ensnared by the doom surrounding that holy jewel, but said nothing. i guess this shows that with the inherent disparity, there is some form of "self-restraint" or "self-regulation" if you will in their relationship without melian really compromising her empowerment. i've always believed that relationships between partners on both their terms is the best way to go.

agree beren and luthien were happy, though i've to sneak in a modifier and say there was bittersweet happiness in their marriage.

---------------------------------------------
every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse

[amyrlis]

Many of these happy marriages seem to have a "love at first site" beginning. Thingol & Melian, Beren & Luthien, Aragorn & Arwen. I wonder if that's part of the formula for sucess?. I also wonder if that is how J.R.R. fell in love with his wife?

[Lush]

amyrilis, check out the John and Edith: Beren and Luthien thread

As for happy marriages...Elwing and Ëarendil touched me greatly, but my vote still goes for Beren and Lúthien-their love made them the bravest of all beings.
Thingol and Melian are interesting, because for all the misery they went through, one still got the sense that it was all worth it. Melian was a gift to Thingol-and sure enough, her name means "dear gift" or "gift of love" (I think...).
What intrigues me is whether or not Tolkien was making a case for unequal marriages? (Arwen being of nobler stature than Aragorn, Beren being deemed unworthy for Lúthien, Melian the Maia falling for an Elf...) Because really, if you look at most unions where the wife's stature supercedes that of her husband, you often end up with a pair of embittered souls akin to the lunatics that populate Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
I guess this is why fairy-tales are so enticing-awful convention is defied.

[amyrlis]

Thanks Lush! Good info there! I've read that thread before, but I guess I didn't get all the way through it.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Love at first sight does show up often in Tolkien's writings, amyrlis - it will be interesting to look and see if it is a characteristic for successful marriages only or can also precede unsuccessful ones!
Lush, I've noticed the tendency to unequal marriages too, especially the inter-racial ones. It does seem to be the women who are marrying "down". I know of no example of an elven male marrying a human woman. We do have one example of an human-elven marriage that does not result in the elven woman losing her immortality, however - Tuor, human, marries Idril, elven, and sails to the West with her at the end of his life, after the Fall of Gondolin. He alone of mortal men becomes one of the Eldar. Was it because of their marriage or would he have been rewarded for his friendship with the Noldor even without his elven wife? I wonder...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

There are still so many interesting aspects to ME marriages to be discussed – I’d like to revive this thread and its twin with the unhappy marriages. Let’s do some in-depth discussing; please don’t just list names without giving examples and/or reasons.

What got me thinking about it again were some lines in the Silmarillion, Valaquenta as well as the discussion on the “Ooh la la Lúthien” thread.

First couple: Manwë and Varda

With Manwë dwells Varda…
Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë…
Manwë and Varda are seldom parted…
When Manwë there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further than all other eyes…
And if Manwë is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears…

Now I find that to be a wonderful description of a marriage in which the whole is more than the sum of its parts. Each of the partners has a special ability that the other does not have, yet together they are truly strong. There is no jealousy or rivalry; not even the fact that Varda is especially revered by the Elves bothers her husband. Both are aware of their own intrinsic worth and of the worth of the other.

Idealistic? Certainly! But isn’t that something that many of us secretly yearn for?

The other Valar marriage that I thought about is somewhat different in nature. The talents and natures of Aulë and Yavanna complement each other, but it seems to me that they are less unified. His element is the earth, and her love belongs to the growing things. They apparently do their creative work separately from one another; Aulë creates the Dwarves (in secret at first even from his wife); Yavanna counters by creating the Ents. There is a sense of rivalry between their creations.

Yavanna: ‘Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.’
Aulë: ‘Nonetheless they will have need of wood.’

I’m not saying that this marriage is less good; they are Valar, after all. But it is different, obviously so because the persons involved are different personalities.

Any comments on these two couples or other Valar marriages?

[lindil]

Michael Martinez has just written a nice peice on Bombadil, Goldberry and the Ent/wives which some here may find interesting. I did.

here is a snippet.

...She sits by the hearth and sings many songs for her guests. So, she is warm and friendly, very open, but a radiant source of poetic inspiration. Tom, of course, adores Goldberry, and he constantly brings her gifts, and awakens her by singing beneath her window. He may be his own man, but he makes it clear that he is also Goldberry's man. And Goldberry flows through Tom's home and heart like a fresh spring gushing from a mountainside.

and this bit is also a real gem and cuts to the heart of it [or if I may mix a metaphor, one facet of the heart of it]

If the differences between the relationships can be summed up in one word, it would have to be risk-taking; that is, both Bombadil and Goldberry risk something by allowing each other certain freedoms. The Ents and Entwives, on the other hand, were unwilling or unable to compromise on their needs and desires, and so ultimately they divorced each other. Such rejection would be unnatural in Tolkien's very Catholic point of view. To abandon the marriage would be a disgraceful, even sinful thing. More importantly, it removes all hope of nurturing the relationship and children from the home. There is no balance, no harmony, and the outcome of such a division is disastrous for all concerned.

ol' MM is getting downright poetic in his older age! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ February 15, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Mister Underhill]

Interesting, Esty.

I find that to be a wonderful description of a marriage in which the whole is more than the sum of its parts.

This takes me all the way back to “The One Ring?” thread, in which Sharkey and I teamed up to speculate that in Tolkien’s world, the symbolic marriage of male and female energy, whether in corrupt form (Sauron and his Ring, Melkor and Ungoliant) or in natural form (as in the examples you cite), results in a whole which is greater than the sum of its parts.

Letter 43 features a long and revealing discourse on Tolkien’s thoughts on romantic love, chivalry and its pitfalls, male and female roles, and marriage which anyone interested in this topic should check out. Here’s just a small slice:

...only the rarest good fortune brings together the man and woman who are really as it were 'destined' for one another, and capable of a very great and splendid love. The idea still dazzles us, catches us by the throat: poems and stories in multitudes have been written on the theme, more, probably, than the total of such loves in real life (yet the greatest of these tales do not tell of the happy marriage of such great lovers, but of their tragic separation; as if even in this sphere the truly great and splendid in this fallen world is more nearly achieved by 'failure' and suffering). In such great inevitable love, often love at first sight, we catch a vision, I suppose, of marriage as it should have been in an unfallen world.

[Marigold Hedgeworth]

Many of these happy marriages seem to have a "love at first site" beginning. Thingol & Melian, Beren & Luthien, Aragorn & Arwen. I wonder if that's part of the formula for sucess?.

There's at least one strong, happy marriage that didn't begin with "love at first site" -- that of Eomer and Eowyn. By the time they married, they were very much in love(at least IMO), but their relationship began with something very close to dislike.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Oops, Marigold - you do mean Faramir and Éowyn, don't you?!

[Marigold Hedgeworth]

Oh, dear. I knew that sounded wrong, but I couldn't quite figure out why [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ...I think I'll go bang my head against the wall now [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img].

[elven maiden Earwen]

I think two of the greatest were Luthien and Beren, And Arwen and Aragorn because Luthien and Arwen both gave up there immortality to be with the person they loved. There you can see that they loved Beren and Aragorn enough to die as long as they are with them. That shows how strong and powerful there love was.

[Bêthberry]

That's quite a selective quotation there, Mr. Underhill, from Letter 43. What, no shipwreck? Or Tolkien's sense of 'real soul-mate'?

Bethberry

[Mister Underhill]

Indeed, Bb, you can take your pick of the wealth of applicable material (you left out "Nearly all marriages, even happy ones, are mistakes..."). The letter is too wide ranging to adequately summarize, which is why I gave the ref and a mere "teaser" instead. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Neferchoirwen]

In Eowyn and Faramir's relationship, it seems to me that the woman has once again "married down" in terms of her having what she thought she didn't want. Marrying down seems to a theme aroung Middle Earth marriage. Hmmm.

I'll have to agree that Manwe and Varda worked together as a team, and that Yavanna and Aule had sort of conflict, but that didn't get in the way of their relationship.

[Bêthberry]

Estelyn and Underhill,

Indeed, I think that is probably the most telling phrase, ""Nearly all marriages, even happy ones, are mistakes... " in terms of Tolkien's idea of "this long defeat."

His comments on courtly love I think are interesting if considered in light of Arwen and Aragorn.

Its [ie, 'the romantic chivalric tradition'] weakness is, of course, that it began as an artificial courtly game, a way of enjoying love for its own sake without reference to (and indeed contrary to) matrimony. Its centre was not God, but imaginary Deities, Love and the Lady. It still tends to make the Lady a kind of guiding star or divinity--of the old-fashioned 'his divinity'=the woman he loves--the object or reason of noble conduct. This is, of course, false and at best make-believe.

He does clarify this criticism later by suggesting an element of nobility, but it perhaps suggests why the death of Arwen, in Appendix A, is so poignant, all the caveats about not reading his Catholicism into LOTR notwithstanding.

Bethberry

[ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[XPhial]

In response to Esty's idea about the valar and their marriages: Tolkien uses a very common aspect of mythology when setting up these relationships, that of interconnected, but different, natural elements being connected by the personification of a marriage. The example of Aule and Yavanna is a perfect one. Earth and flora are inextricably linked. The earth provides a place for the flora to flourish and the roots of the flora protect the earth. At the same time, the movement of earth destroys flora and flora sap the nutrients from the earth. The relationship between Yavanna and Aule is an almost perfect corollary.

In response to the comments about unequal marriages: Tolkien seems, to me, to be stating that men, through their accomplishments, can earn the worthiness to wed above their station. The only real exception to this is Melian and Thingol.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As far as I’ve been able to find, the only marriage of two Maiar that is mentioned by Tolkien is that of Ossë and Uinen. (If anyone can give another reference, I’d be delighted.) They share a common task, the rule of the seas, but have greatly diverging personalities. Ossë delights in wind, storm and the roaring waves. There is an innate wildness in him that made him susceptible to temptation by Melkor. He is dangerous, even after he repented.

Uinen’s role is that of a restraining, gentling influence on her husband. She is revered by mariners, especially by the Númenóreans,

for she can lay calm upon the waves, restraining the wildness of Ossë.

When he was tempted to serve Melkor, she

restrained Ossë and brought him before Ulmo; and he was pardoned and returned to his allegiance, to which he has remained faithful. For the most part; for the delight in violence has never wholly departed from him, and at times he will rage in his wilfulness without any command from Ulmo his lord. Therefore those who dwell by the sea or go up in ships may love him, but they do not trust him.

At first glance, this might sound like a stereotypical female role, exercising the civilizing influence of a woman as in Wild West days. But looking more closely, reading between the lines (since there are no more lines to read), I am convinced that Uinen is a female with great innate strength. She has the ability to restrain her husband, and he obviously respects her enough to let her exert a profound influence on him - so much so, in fact, that he permits her to lead him to repentance! They care about each other – I would say that is a good marriage, though we get only a tiny glimpse of it.

Isn’t it interesting that Tolkien doesn’t have a cookie-cutter type pattern for marriage? There are all kinds of combinations of personalities there, and the more closely I look, the more fascinating it gets.

[Manardariel]

Something about Aule&Yavanna: I think their marriage was very happy indeed, especially sice they weren´t always agreeing. It´s wierd that Tolkien chooses Valar-basically Gods- to show us a very human aspect of love. I mean, can you imagine Beren and Lúthien arguing over anything? Oh please. But love without arguments is so boring, in a way. The qoute you gave about Aule and Yavanna reminds me of a sweet, half-fun, half- serious thing, the sort of the thing that ends with a laugh and a kiss. My friend and her boyfiend do stuff like that all the time and they´re perfectly happy- since almost 7 months now! Aule&Yavanna stand up to each other, they may even fight, BUT: without the fighting, you also miss the sweet making-it-up!

Has anyone mentioned Sam&Rosie yet? Because they´re my second-favourite-couple, and I really think they are so cute! Or are we only doing Sil/UT?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The title of this thread restricts us to Middle-earth; other than that, no holds barred! We haven't discussed Sam and Rosie yet - how about some specifics there?

I agree, Manardariel - Yavanna and Aulë's marriage is happy; they're just more independent of each other. I'm sure they have fun kissing and making up! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] The point is, as you said, they

stand up to each other

Neither dominates. As XPhial said so well,

interconnected, but different
inextricably linked

Thanks, Underhill and Bethberry, for the references to Tolkien's own thoughts on marriage, and Marigold for the reminder of a happy marriage that did not start with love at first sight.

[Manardariel]

Revising this tread....

So, Sam and Rosie. Yes, they were such a wonderful couple. What I love about that one is it shows how very, very easy love can be. Without any giving-up-immortality, or killing-off-nazguls. It´s just a very sweet, very normal "boy meets girl" thingy. Sam and Rosie are both so down to earth, it makes one very jealous.

But there´s also an aspect Tolkien seemed to like in Marriage aspects: waiting. Rosie had to wait for Sam, Arwen for Aragorn... I guess it´s another link to those old myths, where the guys go out killing off dragons to marry their loves. It actually reminds me of the Oddysee, which does not fit, but I think it´s true! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Some happy marriages ended in tragedy though, such as Denethor and Finduilas. Denethor loved her, that is clear, and most likely she loved him back, but they couldn't be happy. So is Tolkien saying that sometimes, love just isn't enough? Or is it a sign of the evil growing over the world that is so overbearing it can get in the way?

[ June 08, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

[Lalaith]

I would also like to bring up the marriage of Hurin and Morwen.
This pairing does not at first look promising. The couple are very different in character, they come from different Houses, they live through the most appalling tragedy, even before the Nirnaeth. Morwen was a hard, reserved woman, Hurin had a more open heart, and yet their marriage was clearly trusting, with a great deal of mutual love and devotion.

[Manardariel]

In Eowyn and Faramir's relationship, it seems to me that the woman has once again "married down" in terms of her having what she thought she didn't want.

No!

Eowyn was in love with Aragorn, but it wasn´t the MAN she loved here, it was the idea. In Faramir, she loved the man, his caring, his gentleness, and his loved for her. So she didn´t "marry down" to her wishes. On the contrary, I´d say she "married up". Instead of a man she hardly knew, and who´d hurt her; she chose a man she knew, and who loved and apprechiated her. Check out this thread on the subject.

[aragornreborn]

I'm a particular fan of Sam and Rosie's marriage. In my opinion, we get the best look at their marriage (before, during, and after) and can understand it and enjoy it the most.

(all quotes and information taken from Return of the King - scouring of the shire, the grey havens, and appendix B)

Rosie loved Sam before the quest but refrained from manipulating Sam into staying. She could have told Sam that if he
wanted her, he would have to stay put. But she didn't. Sam had not committed himself to her and Rosie was willing to let Sam do
what he thought he had to do without her manipulating him out of her own desires. Likewise, Sam put off his own interest in Rosie for the higher good. Yes, he loved Rosie and could have stayed with her. But the two wouldn't have lasted long. Frodo would have been caught somewhere along the road to Mt. Doom and Sauron's rule would have soon killed Rosie and Sam, and Sam would have died knowing that he could have tried to help but didn't.

Estelyn Telcontar said (referring to another marriage)

Both are aware of their own intrinsic worth and of the worth of the other.

That is the key element to a successful marriage. If you've got that, you're set. And that's what Sam and Rosie had for each other. It is never stated, but through their treatment of one another, it is obvious that Sam and Rosie believed in their own worth and in the worth of the other.

When Sam returns to the Shire, his first words (ignoring the situation at hand) to Mr. Cotton are:

"What about Mrs. Cotton and Rosie?" said Sam. "It isn't safe yet for them to be left all alone."

Following that and with Farmer Cotton's blessing, Sam rushed to the house where Rosie was at and greeted both Mrs. Cotton and Rosie. He asked them how they both were doing and thus expressed interest in their welfare. They were worth his time, attention, and protection. The dialogue closes after Rosie tells Sam to rush back after he's done.

"I think you look fine, Sam," she said. "Go on now! But take care of yourself, and come straight back as soon as you have settled the ruffians."

Rosie was proud of Sam's exploits and she loved him and cared for him. The Cottons housed Sam until Bag End was ready. When everything finally settled down, Sam and Rosie married after having been kept apart for quite some time.

And from the date of their first child, it appears Sam and Rosie waited to tie the knot, first. They had enough love and respect for the other's worth to hold out for the other alone and for matrimony.

And Sam truly loved Rose. He complimented her even when she was not around. His love for her moved him to speak

about her reverently no matter who he was with. When speaking of his new daughter, Sam could not help but sing praises of his wife.

"as pretty a maidchild as any one could hope for, taking after Rose more than me, luckily."

Finally, after Rose died, Sam went to the Grey Havens. He stayed in Middle Earth only as long as she was alive. She was his reason to live.

In my opinion, Sam and Rosie had it down. Their marriage was a beautiful one.

[StarJewel]

IMHO, one of the happiest marraiges in Middle Earth was between Finwe and Miriel, his first wife. They had something very special between them, and it's a real shame that she died so early. He was likely very happy with his second wife Indis, but "The shadow of Miriel was always there". He took great interest in Feanor, since he was the only living reminder of Miriel.

[Meneltarmacil]

Were there ever any UNHAPPY marriages?

[The Saucepan Man]

Plenty, Meneltarmacil. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] See the sister thread to this one: Marriage in Middle-earth II (unhappy).

[ June 28, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Finwe]

I think that the reason Tolkien has so many women in his stories "marrying down" and having to wait for a long time for their spouses, or beloveds, is that the same thing happened to him and his wife. Edith Bratt (who later became his wife) was slightly more well-to-do than Tolkien, who was still a student and an orphan.

When the Professor was sent overseas as a soldier in the Lancashire Fusiliers, Edith had to wait for him to come back, so that they could be a "real couple." I think those experiences carried over into the stories that he wrote, since they were such important factors in his life.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

have you mentioned Tom and Goldberry?from my point of wiev it's a weird but happy marriage!Goldberry was quite a mysterious character but Tom obviously adored his wife.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Check lindil's above post for the link to an article about Tom, Goldberry and the Ents/Entwives - interesting to read!