Origins of the Great Goblin

[CaptainFaramir13]

I have not read the Book of Lost Tales yet, but I was looking around on Tolkien Gateway and found the entry on the elf Salgant of Gondolin. It seems that the fate of this character is uncertain; the entry mentions that either Salgant died during the fall of Gondolin or that he “suffered an ill-fate” and became a “buffoon of Morgoth.”

Now I am wondering, assuming of course that Salgant did indeed survive, could Morgoth have made him into an orc, the Great Goblin perhaps. This would certainly be an “ill-fate.” The Great Goblin’s reaction to Orcrist suggests some familiarity with it, and if he was a noble in Gondolin and the sword was wielded by someone important in Gondolin he should be familiar with it. Also Salgant seems to be the only elf described as “heavy” and the Great Goblin is said to be “tremendous.” It is also interesting that Salgant was the chief of the house of the harp, and that the Goblins of Goblin Town are the only Orcs we see singing. I know a wiki is not the best source, so perhaps someone who has actually read the Book of Lost Tales can comment on the possibility of this theory. So what do you think, could Salgant have become the Great Goblin?

[Nerwen]

No. I rather think this falls under the "extraordinary claims" principle. You'd need to find an actual direct statement to that effect in something Tolkien wrote. You see, these comparisons you draw– well, no offence, but I really don't think they amount to much. I suspect you could find as many similarities between any two characters, just chosen at random.

Anyway– sorry for the cold water– and welcome to the Downs!

[Inziladun]

The goblins who captured the company were apparently all generally familiar with both Orcrist and Glamdring, as seeming objects of legend. So I don't think the Great Goblin's reaction to Orcrist was anything notable.

As for his girth, well, RHIP you know. He no doubt, as a local ruler, got the best food available, and was also spared the harder work done by subordinates. Gaining weight was probably natural.

[Nerwen]

Need "tremendous" mean "fat", anyway? It might, but I always interpreted it as meaning "big" generally.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Need "tremendous" mean "fat", anyway? It might, but I always interpreted it as meaning "big" generally.

Me too.
"There in the shadows on a large flat stone sat a tremendous goblin with a huge head." (p. 60)
I always took 'tremendous' as meaning large but also awe-inspiring, impressive, intimidating etc. Similarly it's his head specifically that is pointed out as being "huge"; I considered this as meaning that his head was particularly big in proportion to the rest of his body - which may have already been large.
I think these comparisons are interesting (I've only read Book 1 of Lost Tales, been meaning to start a thread about it actually) but I would imagine that they were probably unintentional on Professor Tolkien's part.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Me too.
"There in the shadows on a large flat stone sat a tremendous goblin with a huge head." (p. 60)
I always took 'tremendous' as meaning large but also awe-inspiring, impressive, intimidating etc. Similarly it's his head specifically that is pointed out as being "huge"; I considered this as meaning that his head was particularly big in proportion to the rest of his body - which may have already been large.
I think these comparisons are interesting (I've only read Book 1 of Lost Tales, been meaning to start a thread about it actually) but I would imagine that they were probably unintentional on Professor Tolkien's part.

Agreed. The Golbins are a warlike race, I have difficulty imagining that an actually fat, out of shape leader would be able to command the neccecary respect to keep his title (or the neccecary fighting prowess to defend it if challenged) The best food argument still might hold, but only if you assume that goblins are so poorly fed that stunting due to malunutition was basically universal for all but the top of the top (a sort of version of the Chulplex society from Avrham Davidson's Masters of the Maze)