Gollum do you pity him or hate him? - Page 3 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

avarrogion · 02-26-2003, 09:14 PM

No problem Yavanna Kementari i am glad that there are so many Gollum fans outhere! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Lyta_Underhill · 02-27-2003, 02:11 AM

This is a great discussion! I think the pity vs. hate question is a way to reflect not only on Gollum, but on one's own values and perceived roles in life. I can pity Gollum, while at the same time, I am wary of him, and I would kill him if he threatened my life in a physical way. I would not enjoy killing him and I would regret having had to do it, but I would not be stupid and fail to defend myself in a situation in which I am in imminent danger of death.

I do think that Smeagol began as a mean soul, who did not have an inkling of the more noble values of life; he was small-minded and his petty greed caused him to commit a rash and evil act beyond his ability to understand the consequences thereof. I do think that the intervening years in the Misty Mountains gave him lots of time to reflect, as well as time to be absorbed by the Ring, and that he may have gained insight into his situation and his former life at this time; it is at this time he recognizes himself and hates himself, but also loses the strength to implement his new insight, for the Ring has him fast now. What good is wisdom that brings no profit to the wise? Smeagol/Gollum gains a sort of twisted wisdom that allows him to understand what has happened to him; and so much more for this knowledge he despairs of his wretched soul.

Also, I think that, just as Frodo recognizes himself in the deteriorated form of Smeagol; so Smeagol recognizes an ideal "first state" in Frodo. While Smeagol was never as good-hearted as Frodo, he sees an ideal he can touch and aspire to. Frodo's so-called betrayal snaps this reality and makes him feel cast out. He is so alone that he cannot understand the necessity of what Frodo had to do and that it was not a betrayal at all, but a benevolent act on Frodo's part.

So, the question: do I pity or hate Gollum? I do pity him, but I also would kill him if I had to, soberly and quickly, without malice, but with much regret. I would not do it lightly, as no one with a conscience can kill without qualms, but at the moment of truth, I would not hesitate to do it.

I could go on about one's role in society and the necessity of some to be more willing to kill than others. For instance, a soldier must not hesitate to kill if the need is there, while a regular citizen will usually do so. The regular Hobbits of the Shire will quail at killing, whereas battle-seasoned warrior hobbits Merry and Pippin convey clearly the will and capability to kill when they return to the Shire. This is necessary, but it is also out of place in the role that Frodo has taken on himself. This is a thought I have not completely come to terms with, so it is still evolving, but Gollum is a true pivotal point in the philosophy.

Thanks so much for this thread, Yavanna!

Cheers,
Lyta

Lathriel · 03-01-2003, 10:50 PM

When I started reading LOTR I hated Gollum but in the course of the book I started to pity him. Gollum was so tormented by the ring and his fear of many things I couldn't help but pity him. It was indeed a bad day for him when he got the ring. His soul is so twisted and full of malice.
One of the most touching parts in LOTR is when Frodo, Sam and Gollum are on the stairs near Shelob's lair and Gollum is once again debating against himself. Then Malice leaves Gollum for just a moment and he looks like a very old tired hobbit. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

03-02-2003, 04:13 AM

I would have sympathy for him..
The ring corrupted him. Its not his fault.. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Andephelien · 03-05-2003, 05:15 PM

When I read the Hobbit, I hated him. He seemed like a slimely, cruel creature. When I read Lord of the Rings, I started to pity him. He may have been an outcast when he was Smegol, but outcast or not, he didnot deserve to be corrupted, imprisomed or tortured. I pity him. In The Two Towers, Smegol tried to "escape" from Gollum, that shows that Smegol was not evil at heart. If the Ring took over someone as strong minded as Frodo, than Smegol wouldn't even have time to protest.

nPiLL · 03-05-2003, 05:25 PM

In ways i pity him, yet sometimes he has control over himself and should not fall for the ring. He needs to build up his self confidence! Haha

03-10-2003, 11:07 AM

Sometimes i pity him because its the rings fault he's like that, but then i don't want to pity him because he's just plain evil at the end of the second book. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] So i don't really know yet. i think i hate him more than i pity him. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Ringethiriel · 03-13-2003, 12:52 PM

in a way i pity and hate smeagol/gollum because of his two personalities, one side of him is innocent and the other is corrupted by the power of the ring which makes him evil. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Adutincowen · 03-13-2003, 02:34 PM

ok, I like the half of Gollum that wasn't evil, but I hate the half that is always making him do evil things (am I making any sense here?) so I guess I'm stuck in neutral.

Yavanna Kementari · 03-28-2003, 10:39 PM

I know how you all feel! Lately I have been feelinga little Gollum like. You know hald Gollum and half Smeagol. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] It's not my fault though. It's this stupid ring!! LOL kidding!. But it is good to still hear from you all! thanks for posting!
-(~<~> Yavanna

Tinuviel the Nightingale · 03-28-2003, 11:29 PM

When I read the books, I fully hated Gollum. He was such a mean, spiteful, evil little creature, I didn't care if he died or not. And when I read all the moments where you were supposed to pity him, I felt disgusted instead. But when the movies come out and I saw how pityful and small he was, I felt sorry for him. Now I think he's kinda cute (in a creepy way)

02-26-2003, 09:14 PM	#81
avarrogion Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Malaysia Posts: 128	No problem Yavanna Kementari i am glad that there are so many Gollum fans outhere! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ I might have been a slasher but I never killed children, only real men!...A mistake cannot make right by another mistake... ~Kenshin Himura~

02-27-2003, 02:11 AM	#82
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 844	This is a great discussion! I think the pity vs. hate question is a way to reflect not only on Gollum, but on one's own values and perceived roles in life. I can pity Gollum, while at the same time, I am wary of him, and I would kill him if he threatened my life in a physical way. I would not enjoy killing him and I would regret having had to do it, but I would not be stupid and fail to defend myself in a situation in which I am in imminent danger of death. I do think that Smeagol began as a mean soul, who did not have an inkling of the more noble values of life; he was small-minded and his petty greed caused him to commit a rash and evil act beyond his ability to understand the consequences thereof. I do think that the intervening years in the Misty Mountains gave him lots of time to reflect, as well as time to be absorbed by the Ring, and that he may have gained insight into his situation and his former life at this time; it is at this time he recognizes himself and hates himself, but also loses the strength to implement his new insight, for the Ring has him fast now. What good is wisdom that brings no profit to the wise? Smeagol/Gollum gains a sort of twisted wisdom that allows him to understand what has happened to him; and so much more for this knowledge he despairs of his wretched soul. Also, I think that, just as Frodo recognizes himself in the deteriorated form of Smeagol; so Smeagol recognizes an ideal "first state" in Frodo. While Smeagol was never as good-hearted as Frodo, he sees an ideal he can touch and aspire to. Frodo's so-called betrayal snaps this reality and makes him feel cast out. He is so alone that he cannot understand the necessity of what Frodo had to do and that it was not a betrayal at all, but a benevolent act on Frodo's part. So, the question: do I pity or hate Gollum? I do pity him, but I also would kill him if I had to, soberly and quickly, without malice, but with much regret. I would not do it lightly, as no one with a conscience can kill without qualms, but at the moment of truth, I would not hesitate to do it. I could go on about one's role in society and the necessity of some to be more willing to kill than others. For instance, a soldier must not hesitate to kill if the need is there, while a regular citizen will usually do so. The regular Hobbits of the Shire will quail at killing, whereas battle-seasoned warrior hobbits Merry and Pippin convey clearly the will and capability to kill when they return to the Shire. This is necessary, but it is also out of place in the role that Frodo has taken on himself. This is a thought I have not completely come to terms with, so it is still evolving, but Gollum is a true pivotal point in the philosophy. Thanks so much for this thread, Yavanna! Cheers, Lyta __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”

03-01-2003, 10:50 PM	#83
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	When I started reading LOTR I hated Gollum but in the course of the book I started to pity him. Gollum was so tormented by the ring and his fear of many things I couldn't help but pity him. It was indeed a bad day for him when he got the ring. His soul is so twisted and full of malice. One of the most touching parts in LOTR is when Frodo, Sam and Gollum are on the stairs near Shelob's lair and Gollum is once again debating against himself. Then Malice leaves Gollum for just a moment and he looks like a very old tired hobbit. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ Back again

03-13-2003, 12:52 PM	#88
Ringethiriel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gondor Posts: 20	in a way i pity and hate smeagol/gollum because of his two personalities, one side of him is innocent and the other is corrupted by the power of the ring which makes him evil. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ faithful servant yet master's bane, lightfoot's foal swift snowmane.

03-13-2003, 02:34 PM	#89
Adutincowen Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: I hail from Middle Earth Posts: 18	ok, I like the half of Gollum that wasn't evil, but I hate the half that is always making him do evil things (am I making any sense here?) so I guess I'm stuck in neutral. __________________ * Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs. ~Adutincowen Whitetree~

03-02-2003, 04:13 AM	#84
TheHobbit Guest Posts: n/a	I would have sympathy for him.. The ring corrupted him. Its not his fault.. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

03-05-2003, 05:15 PM	#85
Andephelien Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 24	When I read the Hobbit, I hated him. He seemed like a slimely, cruel creature. When I read Lord of the Rings, I started to pity him. He may have been an outcast when he was Smegol, but outcast or not, he didnot deserve to be corrupted, imprisomed or tortured. I pity him. In The Two Towers, Smegol tried to "escape" from Gollum, that shows that Smegol was not evil at heart. If the Ring took over someone as strong minded as Frodo, than Smegol wouldn't even have time to protest.

03-05-2003, 05:25 PM	#86
nPiLL Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: An aching yet comfortable crevice in Moria. Posts: 59	In ways i pity him, yet sometimes he has control over himself and should not fall for the ring. He needs to build up his self confidence! Haha

03-10-2003, 11:07 AM	#87
Pervinca Burrows from Combe Guest Posts: n/a	Sometimes i pity him because its the rings fault he's like that, but then i don't want to pity him because he's just plain evil at the end of the second book. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] So i don't really know yet. i think i hate him more than i pity him. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

03-28-2003, 10:39 PM	#90
Yavanna Kementari Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 97	I know how you all feel! Lately I have been feelinga little Gollum like. You know hald Gollum and half Smeagol. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] It's not my fault though. It's this stupid ring!! LOL kidding!. But it is good to still hear from you all! thanks for posting! -(~<~> Yavanna __________________ "Nonetheless they will have need of wood." Aulë speaking to Yavanna of Dwarves :P to you Aulë

03-28-2003, 11:29 PM	#91
Tinuviel the Nightingale Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Splashing around in Galadriel's Mirror Posts: 299	When I read the books, I fully hated Gollum. He was such a mean, spiteful, evil little creature, I didn't care if he died or not. And when I read all the moments where you were supposed to pity him, I felt disgusted instead. But when the movies come out and I saw how pityful and small he was, I felt sorry for him. Now I think he's kinda cute (in a creepy way) __________________ I am no longer Saruman the White... I am Saruman THE BRINGER OF ALL THINGS FLUFFY AND SPECIAL! Join Legends of Middle Earth!