Wheel of Time Books - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 12-15-2010, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlsevern

I realize this is probably going to get a lot of groans and possibly even a few F.U.'s, but I feel that WoT is a superior story to LotR. Okay, you can started flinging the rotten tomatoes at me.

To each his or her own, I guess.

There are those that think that the post-Frank Herbert 'Dune' books are better than the originals as well. I disagree.

For me the test has been rereadability. I read LotR at least once a year. WoT; I've read once (though, if you count the extended prologues, I guess, technically, I read every book twice

).

WoT feels 'ad hoc.' LotR, with the Silmarillion as a background, seems to have a plan, a history, and it feels like it ties somehow into our present day. Another difference in WoT and LotR could be the age at which I read each initially. It's hard to get interested as an cynical adult when reading about the 'teenage travails' of Rand al'Thor, or about the 'political intrigues' of the world after having read Dune.

But that might just be me.

Pitchwife · 12-15-2010, 12:47 PM

Welcome to the Downs, dlsevern! I used to be quite fond of WoT myself up to, say, somewhere between Lord of Chaos and Crown of Swords - I felt Jordan had something interesting and (apart from the nods to LotR in the first book) original going there, but like alatar said, he sort of failed to deliver. In my experience, the last couple of volumes have all more or less been like this:

Prologue, which hints at some momentous action going to happen soon;
100-150 pages of 'reaction shots' referring back to the last vol.;
Several hundreds of pages containing a tiny amount of dragging development buried under tons of 'skirt-straightening' (more of this later);
50 pages of hastily slapped on momentous action;
Epilogue containing three or four cliffhangers to guarantee the reader buys the next book.

It gets tiring. I haven't tackled any of the posthumous volumes yet - I'm probably going to read them sooner or later, just to satisfy my curiosity how it all ends, but I'm not really ready to spend money on them. (Thank Eru for libraries!)

On the matter of skirt-straightening, braid-tugging and other assorted habits: Yes, they can be a nice element in characterisation if used economically; but when I get Aes Sedai by the score thrown at me and only can tell them apart because of their different compulsive tics, it gets, once again, tiring. Not to mention their annoying habit of bullying everybody who has a Y chromosome and isn't stronger than them; if I want a reverse satire on sexism, I prefer Daughters of Egalia, thank you very much.

Sorry if this comes across as perhaps a tad too dismissive of Jordan; much of my frustration with him is really disappointed love. He had a couple of great ideas, but not quite the ability to work them into a truly great series in my opinion.

dlsevern · 12-18-2010, 07:28 PM

I certainly don't want you all to think that I don't absolutely love Tolkien because I do. I've only read The Hobbit, LotR, and The Children of Hurin, I tried to read The Silmirilion but couldn't get through half of it. Everyone tells me it's great, but for me it's like reading the appendixes at the end of LotR but more dull.

Snowdog · 12-18-2010, 08:20 PM

I think I managed a half a book once. Couldn't be @ss'd to put any more time or effort into reading them when I found other more enjoyable books written by less-well known authors to read. Should they ever declare an end to the wheel's movement, I may try and give them a read one day.

Elemmakil · 01-06-2011, 10:54 PM

At the insistence of a friend, I gave WoT a try. I really did. I read the first five books but finally gave up. While the basic plot was fine, the writing was utterly tedious.

Some folks (my friend, for one) insist that Tolkien is too long winded, etc. Really? The entire LoTR story (possibly even including the appendices, but I'm too lazy to do a page count) only adds up to ONE of Jordan's ponderous tomes. I really cannot comprehend such thinking.

I found myself skimming entire chapters in the WoT series, it was so painful to read. What Jordan really needed was a sharp and ruthless editor to stand up to his diarrhea of the word processor and cut out all of the useless drivel. Seriously. I do not care one whit how many ribbons are in Egwene's dress, nor do I need a travel guide to all the taverns between Two Rivers and Caemlyn. And all the incessant babbling about the "taint of Saidin" blah blah blah.... One could very easily told the entire essential elements of WoT in a couple of books, three at most, and had an excellent series. Instead, we got what we got...

At least the Good Professor had the excellent sense to stuff all of the detail stuff in appendices. Perhaps such would have aided Jordan's work as well. Couldn't have hurt....

Nor did I find Jordan's attempts at Conan to be any better.

I have found Terry Goodkind's books much more enjoyable to read that Jordan and the character's much more pleasant, even if I think the plot of the latter's may have been somewhat better. And I have found George R. R. Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" to be far and away better than both. That *is* a top notch series, though I still prefer Tolkien a great deal more. (Parenthetically it would be nice if Martin would get around to finishing just the latest book - I do not hold out much hope of him finishing the series)

Jordan's books remind me of a great line from Commander Ivanova of Babylon 5: "If you get anywhere near a point, MAKE IT."

Blind Guardian · 01-06-2011, 11:07 PM

Right now I am reading The Great Hunt. Blind Guardian got me into them. Well sorta (Blind Guardian got me into the Lord Of The Rings though!). I was reading Sword of Truth by Goodkind, but then I got WoT and started to read that. I'll go back to SoT soon though, went I'm finished with The Dragon Reborn.
I have to say the books, so far, are quite good. There could be less but if the books to come drag on for ever I might stop. SoT Pillars of Creation is boring at the beginning. What the heck does Jennson have to do with anything...?
Anyways, does anyone know if Logain comes in to WoT again?

Pitchwife · 01-07-2011, 01:15 PM

Elemmakil, I couldn't agree more, and I can assure you it gets much, much worse after the books you've read.

BG, the first three or four WoT books are the best and fastest-paced ones; Eye of the World and Great Hunt were good enough to draw me in, and Dragon Reborn and Shadow Rising still not too bad, but after that, the flaws in Jordan's writing start to outweigh the merits IMO.
But yes, Logain comes back, and he gets a lot more to do in the later books.

Blind Guardian · 01-07-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

But yes, Logain comes back, and he gets a lot more to do in the later books.

Oh thank God, i got the feeling he did.

Does anyone see the similarities between WoT and SoT? i.e. And invading force comes in on the second book?

12-15-2010, 12:47 PM	#42
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,355	Welcome to the Downs, dlsevern! I used to be quite fond of WoT myself up to, say, somewhere between Lord of Chaos and Crown of Swords - I felt Jordan had something interesting and (apart from the nods to LotR in the first book) original going there, but like alatar said, he sort of failed to deliver. In my experience, the last couple of volumes have all more or less been like this: Prologue, which hints at some momentous action going to happen soon; 100-150 pages of 'reaction shots' referring back to the last vol.; Several hundreds of pages containing a tiny amount of dragging development buried under tons of 'skirt-straightening' (more of this later); 50 pages of hastily slapped on momentous action; Epilogue containing three or four cliffhangers to guarantee the reader buys the next book. It gets tiring. I haven't tackled any of the posthumous volumes yet - I'm probably going to read them sooner or later, just to satisfy my curiosity how it all ends, but I'm not really ready to spend money on them. (Thank Eru for libraries!) On the matter of skirt-straightening, braid-tugging and other assorted habits: Yes, they can be a nice element in characterisation if used economically; but when I get Aes Sedai by the score thrown at me and only can tell them apart because of their different compulsive tics, it gets, once again, tiring. Not to mention their annoying habit of bullying everybody who has a Y chromosome and isn't stronger than them; if I want a reverse satire on sexism, I prefer Daughters of Egalia, thank you very much. Sorry if this comes across as perhaps a tad too dismissive of Jordan; much of my frustration with him is really disappointed love. He had a couple of great ideas, but not quite the ability to work them into a truly great series in my opinion. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

01-06-2011, 10:54 PM	#45
Elemmakil Pile O'Bones Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 19	WoT... ugh... At the insistence of a friend, I gave WoT a try. I really did. I read the first five books but finally gave up. While the basic plot was fine, the writing was utterly tedious. Some folks (my friend, for one) insist that Tolkien is too long winded, etc. Really? The entire LoTR story (possibly even including the appendices, but I'm too lazy to do a page count) only adds up to ONE of Jordan's ponderous tomes. I really cannot comprehend such thinking. I found myself skimming entire chapters in the WoT series, it was so painful to read. What Jordan really needed was a sharp and ruthless editor to stand up to his diarrhea of the word processor and cut out all of the useless drivel. Seriously. I do not care one whit how many ribbons are in Egwene's dress, nor do I need a travel guide to all the taverns between Two Rivers and Caemlyn. And all the incessant babbling about the "taint of Saidin" blah blah blah.... One could very easily told the entire essential elements of WoT in a couple of books, three at most, and had an excellent series. Instead, we got what we got... At least the Good Professor had the excellent sense to stuff all of the detail stuff in appendices. Perhaps such would have aided Jordan's work as well. Couldn't have hurt.... Nor did I find Jordan's attempts at Conan to be any better. I have found Terry Goodkind's books much more enjoyable to read that Jordan and the character's much more pleasant, even if I think the plot of the latter's may have been somewhat better. And I have found George R. R. Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" to be far and away better than both. That is a top notch series, though I still prefer Tolkien a great deal more. (Parenthetically it would be nice if Martin would get around to finishing just the latest book - I do not hold out much hope of him finishing the series) Jordan's books remind me of a great line from Commander Ivanova of Babylon 5: "If you get anywhere near a point, MAKE IT."

01-07-2011, 01:15 PM	#47
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,355	Elemmakil, I couldn't agree more, and I can assure you it gets much, much worse after the books you've read. BG, the first three or four WoT books are the best and fastest-paced ones; Eye of the World and Great Hunt were good enough to draw me in, and Dragon Reborn and Shadow Rising still not too bad, but after that, the flaws in Jordan's writing start to outweigh the merits IMO. But yes, Logain comes back, and he gets a lot more to do in the later books. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

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12-18-2010, 07:28 PM	#43
dlsevern Newly Deceased Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 9	I certainly don't want you all to think that I don't absolutely love Tolkien because I do. I've only read The Hobbit, LotR, and The Children of Hurin, I tried to read The Silmirilion but couldn't get through half of it. Everyone tells me it's great, but for me it's like reading the appendixes at the end of LotR but more dull.

12-18-2010, 08:20 PM	#44
Snowdog Emperor of the South Pole Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Western Shore of Lake Evendim Posts: 606	I think I managed a half a book once. Couldn't be @ss'd to put any more time or effort into reading them when I found other more enjoyable books written by less-well known authors to read. Should they ever declare an end to the wheel's movement, I may try and give them a read one day.