The Truth of the Uruk-hai

[Boromir88]

From what I understand here, is there are many "suppostions" about the Uruk-hai.

Now to clear some things here as I might toss around terms, so not to get confused heres the terms. Now Goblin is the hobbit word for Orc, so Orcs and Goblins are the same (the common thought is the goblin is smaller then the orc), but not in Tolkien. As for Uruk, that is the black speach for Orc. And Uruk-hai is "Orc People," much different from Uruk. But not to get technical I'll just refer to Uruk-Hai as Uruks. Now onto my ravings and suppostions. Well basically an Uruk-hai is a breed of orcs that are bigger and can tolerate light.

The Gondorians believed Uruks were a crossing of Orcs and Men. This is something that could be true, but again is only a conclusion the Gondorians came up with, not necessarily true. Now, I haven't read the "War of Jewels" yet but I hear Tolkien offers other possibilities of what was crossed to come up with your Uruk-hai. Anyone who has, please inform me. Also, there was the belief that Orcs were long slayed Elves, but again that was a belief.

Lastly, to come to Aragorn. As it states in The Departure of Boromir:

And Aragorn looked at the slain, and he said: "Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all."
There were 4 Goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with orcs; and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men....

It is clear that Aragorn as discovered about the "Uruk-hai." But I had thought that Sauron had first bred the Uruk-hai some 400 years ago, of course a long time before Saruman. So, I can think of two possibilities, either Aragorn had never seen Uruk-hai before (which is the more likely one). Maybe, this was some odd crossing Saruman came up with, because it was of his nature to arm his soldiers with "man-like" weapons and gear.

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

From what you said something does sound a bit fishy...

[Galin]

We now have JRRT on Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk' (as has been theoried by some) and in a post-Lord of the Rings context (his idea at least at the time of writing the following anyway). The context in general is the Black Speech on the Ring, and after a note B krimp-, tie, bind, there is the following (as it appears in PE17)

'The Black Speech was not intentionally modeled on any style, but was meant to be self-consistent, very different from Elvish, yet organized and expressive, as would be expected of a device of Sauron before his complete corruption. It was evidently an agglutinative language, and the verbal system must have included pronominal suffixes expressing the object, as well as those indicating the subject: -ul is a pl. objective, translated 'them', and -ûk an element meaning 'the whole, all (thrakatalûk I 267 is a misprint for -ulûk, a correctly written in the flame letters). The stem burz 'dark' is also found in the later Lugbûrz = Barad-dûr; in the archaic ring-inscription burzumishi is evidently made up of this stem + a particularizing suffix or 'article' um, and an enclitic 'preposition' ish 'in, inside'. The debased form of the B. S. which survived in the Third Age only in the Dark Tower is seen in a few names (as Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk') and the fragment of vituperation uttered by one of Grishnakh's companions, emissaries from Sauron. I have tried to play fair linguistically, and it is meant to have a meaning and not to be a mere casual group of nasty noises, though an accurate translation would even nowadays only be printable in the higher and artistically more advanced forms of literature. According to my taste such things are best left to Orcs, ancient and modern.'

The Editorial note explains: 'This is from the carbon copy of a letter to Mr. W. R. Matthews (dated 13-15 June 1964), which Tolkien placed in the same file with the manuscript of 'Words, Phrases and Passages'.

The editorial note is longer, explaining agglutinating language and other things.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It is clear that Aragorn as discovered about the "Uruk-hai." But I had thought that Sauron had first bred the Uruk-hai some 400 years ago, of course a long time before Saruman. So, I can think of two possibilities, either Aragorn had never seen Uruk-hai before (which is the more likely one). Maybe, this was some odd crossing Saruman came up with, because it was of his nature to arm his soldiers with "man-like" weapons and gear.

This matter always interested me (maybe because Uruk-hai was my favourite chapter at certain time), but the only thing I can bring forward is what I think. So, the following is just my opinion on the matter, the opinion I always had but it's not verified from any sources.

I think that the Uruk-hai (and I decided, at least for myself, to make difference between "Uruk-hai" = these of Saruman; and mere "Uruks" = Sauron's "better" Orcs as it is said for example in the tale of years; not mere "snagas". This difference is, once again, just for my personal purposes). Now, I believe that the Uruk-hai were bred by Saruman, maybe by crossbreeding Orcs with Men, maybe by some different means. They did not fear light, and generally were more like Men; tall, with weapons of man-size (bows, broad swords - unlike Orc sabres). Then there were the Uruks of Sauron, like for example Grishnákh. Grishnákh, whatever he was, was not just a mere Snaga. The "mountain-worms", and the Snaga in Cirith Ungol (again, unlike Shagrat and maybe Gorbag) were something more, but I believe (personally, and just believe) that there was no Man blood in them. I base this mainly on the fact that at least from LotR (I'm not counting in possible, but unsolved debates about how the Orcs originally were created) it seems that no one has ever before crossed Orcs with Men (or it is not known in public, but from how things go in Middle-Earth, some wise man probably would if that happened, or it would come out just by observation, as in the case of Saruman's Uruk-hai). Treebeard says:

Originally Posted by Two Towers, Chapter IV: Treebeard

"(...) Worse than that: [Saruman] has been doing something to [the Orcs]; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!"

The beginning of this speech supports the idea that indeed no Dark Lord has before done anything similar; and the last sentence verifies it: Treebeard's final judgement is radical and however isolated he was, it is clear he never encountered anything like that. Even Sauron never did this. So, if we read about Sauron's Uruks (for example in the connection with Ithilien in the Tale of the Years), I am inclined to think that they are something else, just "upgraded Orcs", where Saruman's Uruk-hai are the ones who are almost Men and do not fear the light. Grishnákh is not a Snaga, that's clear: and yet, during the Orcs' run in daylight, the Uruk-hai of Isengard are much faster (though even here the narrator is somewhat ambivalent):

Originally Posted by Two Towers, Chapter III: Uruk-hai

Either because they were quicker and hardier, or because of some plan of Grishnákh's, the Isengarders gradually passed through the Orcs of Mordor, and Grishnákh's folk closed in behind. Soon they were gaining also on the Northerners ahead.

Concerning Aragorn, he has, as we know, passed near the Black Gate and the valley of Morgul during his quest after Gollum. The "Uruks of Mordor" already existed at that time, according to the Tale of the Years, and it is not probable that he won't see or encounter them (and as a Ranger, he certainly won't overlook them). When he says about the Uruk-hai of Isengard that "they don't look like Orcs at all", it is, in my opinion, a sign that they look totally different than any other Orc Aragorn has seen. That would imply that the Mordor Uruks, if seen by Aragorn, have different traits that differ them from the little Orcs than the Uruk-hai of Isengard have. Let's say, the Isengarders differ from the Snagas because of X, but the Uruks of Sauron differ because of Y, but where Y is still "orcish"; X is more man-like and it seems "alien".

I am also interested how this works together with these famous "half-orcs" and "squint-eyed ill-favoured fellows", who surely were Men but not Orcs; however, there is some connection evident between the two. But what exactly, I am not sure. That would be an interesting question to answer.

[Galin]

But is it the Orcs, or their gear and device that has Aragorn wondering? A look at the text from The Departure of Boromir:

'And Aragorn looked on the slain, and he said: 'Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!'

There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs; and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field; on the front of their iron helms was set an S-rune, wrought of some white metal.

'I have not seen these tokens before,' said Aragorn. What do they mean?'

Things I note: Aragorn immediately follows 'strange to me' with an statement about their gear -- such statement followed by an exclamation point too!

The word strange is repeated with respect to the device. And, as what is 'usual' with Orcs is the curved scimitars, thus, 'unusual' are the blades they have. And Aragorn follows the whole description revealing he has not seen these tokens before.

Granted the description begins with the Orcs themselves, and some seem to interpret the whole description that follows as being 'unusual' -- that's one way to read it, I'll admit, but not the only way I think. Indeed these Orcs are of great-er stature (than the Northerners), but arguably, so were the Uruks in Moria and the huge chieftain encountered there. I don't think that being swart and slant-eyed was that unexpected; and if indeed 'thick legs and large hands' were unusual, I'm not sure why this would necessarily point to mannish blood.

Of course they used gear that Men might use, possibly 'suggesting' something, but that doesn't necessarily make them half-breeds really. They could easily be bigger Orcs who have gotten hold of these weapons.

In any case, I must side with gear and tokens rather. This, in my opinion, is what is strange to Aragorn here, the experienced Ranger noting their gear (!) before the actual description comes into play.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

As I said, it was only my personal opinion. Interesting, though, I never knew Aragorn spoke about the gear. It's the job of the translator, I suppose, because as I know it, the sentence is "They don't look like Orcs at all." However, what you say is just one moment where the Orcs are mentioned; another is at Helm's Deep, and don't forget Treebeard's words - that's what I consider quite important. And concerning the Uruk from Moria, he was a Mordor Orc, like for example Shagrat. And if he was sent from Mordor to Misty Mountains, he was probably one of the well-trained, hardened warriors, he was probably big and strong even for his kind, just as individual.

However the part you quote brings up one important thing, and that's Gandalf's words about the Mordor Uruks in Moria. He describes them pretty well:

"There are Orcs, very many of them," he said. "And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor."

The Uruks are mentioned as large here. However, I am pretty sure that "large" means just "big in comparison to the small mountain maggots who are all over the place". And the "huge orc-chieftain" is probably the biggest among them all, however, he is described as

a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot

which means that even though he is huge, he is almost man-high. Note this, please, it will be useful later. Another thing we are told about him is that

His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals

Interestingly, "swart" is one of the words used especially for Uruk-hai of Saruman. In connection with them, the words "large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs with great bows and short broad-bladed swords" are used several times; probably to emphasise the fact that these were them who killed Boromir (as Uglúk also says, "we killed the great warrior"), but also it somewhat looks like specific sign. The speciality of Uruk-hai of Isengard is that they are "slant-eyed" - that's how you should recognise an Orc, or even a Man from Isengard: that there is something about his eyes. In Flotsam and Jetsam, Merry says:

Most of [the men in Saruman's host] were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree: only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.

This concerns these "squint-eyed fellows" we all know. Note please, that these are not Orcs. Merry says that there were Orcs, wolf-riders, and then Men; which he divides into these cathegories.

To make it clear, we have:
1) normal Orcs ("mountain-maggots" or in Mordor "snagas"), everyone knows them and that's what an Elf, a Gondorian, a Hobbit, or a Wizard imagines when you say "Orc"
2) Uruks, maybe or maybe not different groups of Isengard Uruk-hai (like Uglúk) and Mordor Uruks (like the "huge orc-chieftain" in Moria)
3) "goblin-faces", the Men that Merry saw. But these were clearly Men, not Orcs.

However it's also clear that Treebeard spoke about Uglúk and his Uruk-hai when he spoke about crossbreeding Orcs and Men. This implies what I said before, that the Uruk-hai of Saruman were still somewhat different, more Man-like than the Uruks of Sauron. The other thing is also that you never see these "goblin-faces" in Sauron's armies. Apart from Easterlings, Southrons and Variags of Khand there are no large groups of Men in his service; in Mordor there are just normal Orcs (i.e. Snaga and Uruks).

[Galin]

Legate of Amon Lanc wrote: '... However, what you say is just one moment where the Orcs are mentioned; another is at Helm's Deep, and don't forget Treebeard's words - that's what I consider quite important.

Treebeard being a character in the tale indeed wonders here -- he questions what is going on but he doesn't know what Saruman has really done. He has guessed right in that Saruman has bred Orcs and Men, though the result need not be the Uruk-hai however.

We know that Saruman had 'many' Uruks in his service: 'Others also came down from the Misty Mountains, many being great Uruks in the service of Saruman, though it was long before that was suspected.' Appendix A

... The Uruks are mentioned as large here. However, I am pretty sure that "large" means just "big in comparison to the small mountain maggots who are all over the place". And the "huge orc-chieftain" is probably the biggest among them all, however, he is described as which means that even though he is huge, he is almost man-high. Note this, please, it will be useful later.

Right, almost man-high, arguably big for an Orc. That's my point though, the Isengarders are not necessarily that unusual in size to Aragorn. They are greater than the Northerners just as some Uruks of Mordor could be (in general). We don't get much in the way of detail in Moria, but the Uruks there are large, and the chieftain is 'huge' (for an Orc). It is the half-orcs that are said to be 'man-high' in any case.

Interestingly, "swart" is one of the words used especially for Uruk-hai of Saruman. In connection with them, the words "large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs with great bows and short broad-bladed swords" are used several times; probably to emphasise the fact that these were them who killed Boromir (as Uglúk also says, "we killed the great warrior"), but also it somewhat looks like specific sign. The speciality of Uruk-hai of Isengard is that they are "slant-eyed" - that's how you should recognise an Orc, or even a Man from Isengard: that there is something about his eyes.

JRRT describes Orcs in general (in a letter) with slant-eyes: '...they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes;...' JRRT Letters

In Flotsam and Jetsam, Merry says: (snip of quote). This concerns these "squint-eyed fellows" we all know. Note please, that these are not Orcs. Merry says that there were Orcs, wolf-riders, and then Men; which he divides into these cathegories.

These are described as 'half-orcs' however, Aragorn replies to Merry:

'Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.

'I thought of him too,' said Aragorn. 'We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep.' Flotsam And Jetsam

And at Helm's Deep, Gamling says: 'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,' said Gamling.' Indeed Saruman has bred 'half-orcs', also called Men-orcs or Orc-men in my opinion (noting that these terms are half one thing, half the other. And translate 'goblin' if desired, in either term).

'... and in his lust for mastery commited this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.' JRRT, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring

However it's also clear that Treebeard spoke about Uglúk and his Uruk-hai when he spoke about crossbreeding Orcs and Men.

I disagree it is clear however. Some (or many) may think so, but Treebeard has no way of knowing what Saruman has done, and what he is wondering about can easily be 'half-orcs' instead of Uruk-hai or 'Orc-folk'. Or if he saw any of the Uruk-hai, he would not know why they did not seem to mind the Sun.

This implies what I said before, that the Uruk-hai of Saruman were still somewhat different, more Man-like than the Uruks of Sauron. The other thing is also that you never see these "goblin-faces" in Sauron's armies. Apart from Easterlings, Southrons and Variags of Khand there are no large groups of Men in his service; in Mordor there are just normal Orcs (i.e. Snaga and Uruks).

Yes Sauron doesn't seem to have had half-orcs at this time

Note Merry's statement that the Southerner at Bree was 'not so obviously orc-like as most of these were'. Generally speaking two 'kinds' of half-orcs could indeed be expected when breeding Orcs and Men, and the more orc-like result would not be as well suited to spying as the less orc-like result, though indeed there may have been some grey area here.

Tolkien uses two terms when he speaks of the result of Saruman's breeding program (though not Uruk-hai or 'Orc-folk' in any case)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galin

Treebeard being a character in the tale indeed wonders here -- he questions what is going on but he doesn't know what Saruman has really done. He has guessed right in that Saruman has bred Orcs and Men, though the result need not be the Uruk-hai however.

and

Originally Posted by Galin

I disagree it is clear however. Some (or many) may think so, but Treebeard has no way of knowing what Saruman has done, and what he is wondering about can easily be 'half-orcs' instead of Uruk-hai or 'Orc-folk'. Or if he saw any of the Uruk-hai, he would not know why they did not seem to mind the Sun.

Treebeard had personal experience with seeing Orcs of Isengard coming into the forest and cutting, burning, we all know the stuff, burarum. And because of what he says, as I quoted earlier: "...[Saruman] has been doing something to [the Orcs]; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men..."; it's clear that Treebeard must have seen at least some of the Uruk-hai. And if he did, then this implies that nothing like that has ever existed before in Middle-Earth, not even in Mordor, so these Uruk-hai are Saruman's speciality. The only thing you could argue about is whether the "Orcs" that Treebeard saw were not the "goblin-faces", but I'd presume that for someone like Treebeard with his long lists and ages of knowledge, he'd speak more clearly of "wicked Men" and not "man-like Orcs", had he seen these "goblin-faces". Therefore I think what he was referring to were the Uruk-hai like Uglúk was.

[Galin]

You are free to hold that interpretation of course (and I'll bet you're not alone), but what Treebeard might see and what he knows are yet two different things.

'Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.' JRRT, Letters

Now that doesn't mean I toss aside everything Treebeard says. Indeed not! But the quote you are raising has the character himself essentially admitting that he does not know what Saruman has done. Saruman has been doing something, but what? 'I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?'

Good questions, but questions nonetheless. Have 'half-orcs' been seen? If so the beings under question are maybe something like what Merry describes: 'horrible: man-high but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed' -- indeed the half-orcs as Aragorn calls them.

And if it was the Uruk-hai that were noted, again, how would Treebeard know (not that he would claim to know), why it was they didn't seem to mind the Sun? Big Orcs who don't appear to mind the Sun or man-high Orc-faced beings doing damage to the forest could easily be 'all the same' to an Ent... close enough in any case, with respect to Entish concerns, though it probably would make one wonder what Saruman has done.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galin

You are free to hold that interpretation of course

Well, I'm not here to hold an interpretation, I am here to learn something or to try to help uncover something. Exploring possibilities, exposing flaws in theories and trying to come to a conclusion is what I want to do

Originally Posted by Galin

And if it was the Uruk-hai that were noted, again, how would Treebeard know (not that he would claim to know), why it was they didn't seem to mind the Sun? Big Orcs who don't appear to mind the Sun or man-high Orc-faced beings doing damage to the forest could easily be 'all the same' to an Ent... close enough in any case, with respect to Entish concerns, though it probably would make one wonder what Saruman has done.

I am not exactly sure if I understand the first sentence. If I understood it correctly, you (maybe just rhetorically) ask how would Treebeard know the reason why the Uruk-hai (like Uglúk) do not fear the light. But he says it. If we presume it was the Uruk-hai whom Treebeard saw, he saw them roaming the forest at day, which of course seemed strange to him. But as he says, "these Isengarders are more like wicked Men". This means that he had to notice something "mannish" on them. And that's what I said I thought about the Uruk-hai of Saruman: that they, in contrary to the Uruks of Mordor, had something "mannish" in them, even though they were Orcs. And if Treebeard judged them like that, it surely was not just because of the gear they carried.

The ultimate question, however, leads again to what exactly he saw. But the point is, that all these goblin-faced Men made the impression that they are Men. Even Merry, though he said they were unbelievably Orcish, classified them as Men. To make the judgement he did, Treebeard must have thought to himself: "Ha, here are some Orcs!" and only on the second sight "But hey, there is something strange on them, which is not quite Orcish."

However logical and I must say interesting your theory is, this thing makes me doubt it. It would be much more interesting to let us have Uruks of Mordor and Uruks of Isengard the same, but also the "we are something special" lines the Uruk-hai make all the time make it sound like they are indeed something different, something "more" than even the Mordor Uruks.

[Galin]

Legate of Amon Lanc wrote: ... If I understood it correctly, you (maybe just rhetorically) ask how would Treebeard know the reason why the Uruk-hai (like Uglúk) do not fear the light. But he says it. If we presume it was the Uruk-hai whom Treebeard saw, he saw them roaming the forest at day, which of course seemed strange to him. But as he says, "these Isengarders are more like wicked Men". This means that he had to notice something "mannish" on them.

Not necessarily something beyond 'sun tolerance' though. In other words, even if the Uruk-hai are the beings in question, they are like Men in that they do not mind the Sun, yes, but why don't they mind it, specifically? Treebeard doesn't know, he doesn't have certain knowledge. Are they ruined Men? half-breeds? some other reason maybe? some 'spell' perhaps? would even a half-breed automatically not mind the Sun? He doesn't ask all these questions, but he is questioning.

Treebeard's reason to suspect something about the Isengarders appears to concern the Sun, which, as far as he knows, is unusual for Orcs. Call it interpretation A.

If I understand your post correctly (and maybe I don't), you seem to be suggesting something like: Treebeard says they are more like wicked men because there is something 'mannish' about them and he saw them in the day and this also seemed strange to him (adding to his reasons to say they are like wicked men).

Maybe

The ultimate question, however, leads again to what exactly he saw. But the point is, that all these goblin-faced Men made the impression that they are Men. Even Merry, though he said they were unbelievably Orcish, classified them as Men. To make the judgement he did, Treebeard must have thought to himself: "Ha, here are some Orcs!" and only on the second sight "But hey, there is something strange on them, which is not quite Orcish."

Coupled with (from an earlier post, see above)...

'... but I'd presume that for someone like Treebeard with his long lists and ages of knowledge, he'd speak more clearly of "wicked Men" and not "man-like Orcs", had he seen these "goblin-faces".

In other words (if I read this right) you're suggesting that Treebeard can't have seen half-orcs because they give the general impression of Men and he would have spoken more clearly in your opinion. So you conclude he saw the Uruk-hai and etc.

Again maybe, but not clearly so in my opinion.

'if I had seen you before I heard you, I should have just trodden on you, taking you for little Orcs, and found out my mistake afterwards' Treebeard to the Hobbits

I rather think it quite likely that if Treebeard saw orkish beings, due to what he thinks about Orks and darkness he then wonders about 'ruined Men' or some result of interbreeding. Also I think one can press this point about classification too much. If indeed Treebeard saw beings who were (to use your words) 'unbelievably Orkish' we can't certainly know he wouldn't generally think them orkish enough to be termed 'Orcs' (when speaking to the Hobbits).

Treebeard's commentary here might suggest to some that the Uruk-hai are more than 'Orc-folk' with respect to blood, but as I say that is one interpretation, and but part of the evidence.

In any case The Ent might be surprised to know that the Uruk-hai (boast as they like) are not the only Orcs who can run 'well enough' under the Sun.

[littlemanpoet]

What about the chapters involving Merry and Pippin's captivity and travel across Rohan? In these Tolkien describes individual orcs and groups of orcs at length. I haven't had a chnace myself, but don't these passages reveal anything useful about the varieties of orcs?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A lot of talking at cross-purposes, due to confusion of terms, which are not synonymous, but which do overlap considerably.

1) Uruk, group-plural Uruk-hai (Sindarin Orchoth).* This term applies to all great soldier-Orcs, as opposed to lesser 'snagas.'** Uruk-hai does not denote, specifically, Saruman's hybrids, but does include a great number or even the majority of them (see 2a below); it applies with equal force to Grishnakh's group, Shagrat, Gorbag, and the Mordor-detachment in Moria. Their history goes back centuries before the War of the Ring.
It would be wholly typical of Orkish behavior if most groups considered themselves Uruk-hai, and all smaller Orcs as snagas or maggots- just as even bigger Orcs in turn classed them as apes or snagas or maggots.

2) Half-orcs, Orc-men, Man-orcs, crossbreeds, etc. These are the Orc-Man hybrids bred at Isengard at the end of the Third Age. There was (unsurprisingly) a great deal of genetic variation among this group: "producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."

2a) Those in whom Orkish characteristics predominated appeared to be, and plainly considered themselves, Uruks, if of an especially powerful type ("We are the fighting Uruk-hai!");

2b) Those in whom the Mannish character was more pronounced ("Orc-faces") were useful to mingle with men, as the "squint-eyed Southerner" at Bree and at least some of Sharkey's Ruffians, and (I suspect) used to stir up the Dunlendings.


*Lit. "Orc-folk, the host of the Orcs," but (in BS and Orkish jargon, not Sind.) modified in practice (see note 2)

**Originally meant all Orcs, but in their own usage became restricted to the heavy soldiery.

[Galin]

I agree that Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk' does not denote 'hybrids' of course, and certainly Saruman's Uruk-hai are also Uruks (which is an anglicized plural)... but I do not think Uruks are necessarily hybrids however.

I find no certain evidence to date (many theories yes) that an Uruk is more (with respect to blood) than a 'great soldier orc', better trained and generally larger than other types.

The Uruk-hai are directly referred to as Orcs (or translation 'goblins'), but not directly (to my knowledge) referred to as 'half-orcs, man-orcs, orc-men' (though some think they are, by way of interpretation).

Incidentally, some argue that all Uruk-hai can be called Uruks but not all Uruks are properly called 'Uruk-hai'. Not that I necessarily agree with that, but the new information of 'Orc-folk' has not changed this argument it seems, as the claim is that Uruk-hai had (for whatever reason) properly become a 'tribal-name' of the Isengarders.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good. Really nice input now from everyone. To avoid confusion, I'll just put in three of my main questions now (you may try to put an answer to them, or just leave them be and go on in the discussion. I also hope my usage of the terms "Uruk" and "Uruk-hai" have not created misunderstanding, I divided them just for technical purposes of being clear). The questions are connected together, answer to one means answer to the others, but they are supposed to bring together the answerer to noticing all facts.

1. Were the Uruk-hai like Uglúk (not the "half-orcs" - for avoiding confusion, imagine Uglúk as a specific example of the race) somehow crossed with Men or not?

2. Were the Uruk-hai of Isengard the same as the Uruk-hai of Mordor?

3. Could all the "big Orcs" go well with the light?

My own answers - waiting for someone else's agreeing or disagreeing:

1. Nothing specifically says they were. They were almost man-high and went all right in the light. But the Uruk-hai of Mordor were also almost man-high. The question remains about the light.

2. See above and see below; but for starters, let's say this: if they were to differ in anything, it would have to be the origin of Isengarders, if they are indeed crossed with Men. If they are not, both the races are probably the same.

3. Now that's just it. There is that statement of Treebeard, and I think we can agree with his wisdom collected through the ages, at least in this case surely.

Originally Posted by Treebeard

It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it.

This, for me, is a signal that the Orcs of Saruman are the only ones who can go quite well with the Sun. The lesser goblins are afraid and exhausted, the greater goblins are exhausted a little bit more, but the Uruk-hai of Isengard have no problem and they are the only ones. If this is true, then this would be a symptome of different origin. The Orcs of Sauron are just Orcs of Morgoth, ultimately, from the same origin. Morgoth was Sauron's master, all that comes from Sauron is just another use of the original things of Morgoth. Sauron's Uruks are upgraded Morgoth's Orcs. Saruman's Orcs are a new race: created by Saruman alone. (Technically speaking. Of course, if Saruman indeed crossed Orcs with Men, he still had Morgoth's Orcs to begin with - ultimately, all evil streams from Morgoth. But Saruman has his own input in the work, where Sauron had none or very little. Sauron uses Morgoth's ways* to enhance Morgoth's creatures, Saruman uses Saruman's ways to enhance Morgoth's creatures.)

If Treebeard is right, then Sauron's Uruk-hai are not of the kind to stroll whistling under the Sun. With that, #3 is answered: no. If that's right, then there is something different in the Isengarders. With that, #2 is answered: no. If that's right, the only logical conclusion of the problem is the one to which Treebeard comes when he continues his formerly quoted speech:

Originally Posted by Treebeard

I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?

Either of these would be answer to #1. And that's, technically, why I think the Uruk-hai of Mordor are indeed in the position to say "we are something more" - they are right (whether it's good or bad, even from the view of Orcs, is another matter).

So that's about it.

*i.e. the ways Morgoth taught him

[Rumil]

Hi all,

interesting discussion here, but on this issue I think I side with Galin.

In my view orcs etc can be organised like this-

1- Orcs

1a- snagas, mountain maggots, 'The Hobbit' goblins -small orcs
1b- everyday orcs, Grishnakh's company, majority of Mordor orcs - medium orcs
1c- Uruks and Uruk-Hai of Mordor and Isengard - big orcs

2- Halforcs ie man-orcs, orc-men, goblin-men - Saruman's speciality
2a- Halforcs that are obviously orcish
2b- Halforcs that could be mistaken for men

Are there Uruk-hai in Mordor? Yes indeed- according to the tracker in Mordor

then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's the whole lot together

Are halforcs and Saruman's Uruks different? I think UT implies this at the Battles of the fords of the Isen with

the sudden assault of the massed Uruks

followed a few lines later by

there appeared a company of men or orc-men

and

Theodred fell, hewn down by a great orc-man

where its clear that the elite company of orc-men is different from the heavily armed Uruks.

To say nothing of Aragorn's comments

[Galin]

And I'll look at Orcs and the Sun

I would think Orcs like to brag if they are good at something (or better than other orcs at something). Saruman's Isengarders don't appear to mind the Sun indeed, but why? This might be something 'new' that would be beyond Treebeard's general expectations, but the reason need not be because they have mannish blood (the Uruk-hai boast that they eat man's-flesh incidentally).

I note that immediately following the Northerners complaint about running under the Sun they are derided as 'half-trained' mountain maggots, which could possibly mean that Saruman's Uruks are indeed well-trained to endure it easily.

'By the White Hand! What's the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half-trained. Run, curse you!' The Uruk-Hai

Of course that may be 'slim' evidence to some, but it looms large enough to me, coming in direct response to this concern from the chief of the Isengarders himself, and considering also that: the troop from Mordor run very well under the Sun too, and do not complain about it... and (by following the description in the text) it appears that even a few of the larger bolder Northerners run with the Isengarders.

In The Battles of the Fords of Isen (Unfinished Tales) Saruman has Dunlendings, Orcish wolfriders, followed by two battalions of Uruks ' ...the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles.' No specific mention of the Sun there of course, but we find they are trained to move at great speed when heavily armed. Also noting: 'It [the word uruk] referred, however, specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of the regiments of Mordor.' JRRT Quendi And Eldar, War of the Jewels

Emphasis on training; and perhaps Saruman's lot are better trained (in general) than even many of Sauron's Uruks, but Sauron has numbers that Saruman cannot match, so his forces need to be at their best. I'll give you man-flesh (he promises) but you will train to be 'better' even under the Sun.

In The Battle Of The Pelennor Fields the Orcs of Mordor appear to fight on after the Sun shines (a great wind blew, and the rain went North). The hosts of Mordor, which I would say included Orcs (Orcs that are said, after Aragorn is revealed, to have hated the Sunlight), were actually heartened by the Black Sails. Éomer's words include singing in the Sun as he prepared to face Mordor, and then Aragorn and Company are revealed and a dread falls upon the enemy. Indeed these Orcs do not like the Sun but appear quite ready to battle on when thinking that the ships contained enemies of the West.

Orcs don't like the Sun. Perhaps even Saruman's Isengarders would prefer darkness if given the choice, but in any case the evidence appears to show that the Isengarders are arguably better at enduring it than others, and even possibly matched by 'larger, bolder' Northerners. Confusion again might arise at Helm's Deep as the Orcs (the Uruk-hai) and the half-orcs may not mind the Sun, but Gamling need not be equating half-orcs and Orc-men with the Uruk-hai.

The Mordorians run 'hour after hour' without complaint, and even when they drop back at one point, the text makes it clear that 'the writer of the tale' cannot know (or tell) the exact reason why (the writer gives two options for the Reader to entertain).

[littlemanpoet]

To borrow from Rumil:
In my view orcs can be organised like this-

1a- snagas, mountain maggots, 'The Hobbit' goblins -small orcs
1b- everyday orcs, Grishnakh's company, majority of Mordor orcs - medium orcs
1c- Uruks or Uruk-hai of Mordor - big orcs
1d- Uruk-Hai of Isengard - various shades of mixture of orc and Men
1e- Halforcs that are obviously orcish
1f- Halforcs that could be mistaken for men

1d through 1f are all Saruman's specialty.

Also, eating man-flesh is no distinguisher of orcishness; cannibals eat man-flesh and they're men.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Excellent points, Galin. I would add this, from Helm's Deep:

'What of the dawn?' they jeered. 'We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day....We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?

Now at the beginning and end of this exchange the narrator tells us "The Orcs yelled and jeered;" and it is they (not the narrator) who repeatedly declare "We are the fighting Uruk-hai!"

Now it's entirely unclear whether these particular Uruks are purebreed Orcs, or hybrids more Orkish than human- but clearly they fit on the "orc" side of the ledger.

**********

Tolkien does however tell us that the Isengarders of Ugluk's command are superior (whether through breeding or training) to Grishnakh's crew: in his notes on the marching speed of the Orcs across Rohan, T states that Isengarders can go 'faster' (by some unspecified amount) than regular Uruks' 4 mi/hr; and that they only need 30 vice 60 minutes' rest every six hours.

************
Consider both the "half-trained" comment, which Ugluk makes it at the foot of the Emyn Muil, in the dark: "Run while night lasts!"; andwhen the 'maggots' truly start to lag, as the Rohirrim pursue them, there is no question that the Northerners' fatigue is connected with the sun:

They were flagging in the rays of the bright sun, winter sun shining in a pale cool sky though it was; their heads were down and their tongues lolled out.

'Maggots!' jeered the Isengarders. 'You're cooked!'

(The 'maggots' of course had expressed amazement at Ugluk's order earlier to keep on running by day). The Isengarders then put on a 'terrific spurt' of speed; Grishnakh's group, trailing, also begins to 'put on speed ' but it's unclear how much.

It's clear therefore that with regard to the mountain-Orcs and the Lugburz contingent 'training' (and perhaps Orc-breed) is the principal difference: even including resistance to the Sun (after all, the mountain-orcs hardly ever see it). As pointed out above, Mordor-orcs frequently manage to march and fight by day. Grishnakh's group in fact cover 100m in 35 hours straight, including 12 of daylight. But what of the Isengarders? Is their sun-resistance even better? Are Ugluk's bunch in fact hybrids, or are they simply superior in training and readiness?

Now they clearly regard themselves as Uruks, though of a superior type. Ugluk twice says words to the effect of "leave it to the Uruk-hai of Isengard to sort things out" Notably, he says this once to Grishnakh and once to one of his own trackers (addressed as "Snaga"). It would appear that the import is to distinguish U-h of I from, on the one hand, Uruk-hai of Mordor, and on the other hand lesser Orcs of Isengard. I have no problem associating Ugluk and his command with the Uruk-hai at Helm's deep referenced above. But are they hybrids?

We know that they are large, and carry both swords and bows that resemble those of Men rather than Orcs- but that could just be Saruman's quartermaster-general.

When we first see him, Ugluk is "a large black Orc." Grishnakh is "a short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that hung almost to the ground." The Northeners are "smaller goblins." Well, that doesn't help much.

Perhaps more interesting is a subtle difference in accounts of the attacking force at Helm's Deep. Merry's account of the army talks about two groups of "Men"- those who are grim but not especially evil, obviously Dunlendings, and other with goblin-faces, like the "southerner" but even more Orkish. Then of course there were "endless lines of marching Orcs" as well as wolfriders. But when we read the aftermath of Helm's deep, these Orc-men have disappeared, apparently subsumed. Where? Theoden sets the Dunlendings to work and then releases them, whereas the Orcs are annihilated- there's no mention of Orc-men. Are they to be classed with the rest of the "Orcs," since they're plainly not Dunlendings?

I would propose, as a working hypothesis, that Uruks of all types can be *trained* to tolerate the Sun, although it is still detrimental to purebreed Orcs. In the Pelennor fields, it's interesting that from sunrise and the great Charge onwards the only effective enemies mentioned are various types of Men, until with Aragorn's arrival Imrahil drives various Southrons and "orcs that hated the sunlight;" and *men* fly before Eomer's face. The latter part of the battle, "hard fighting and long labour", again has Southrons and Easterlings as the only named enemies. It would appear as if once the Darkness breaks the Mordor-Orcs have become non-factors in the battle;* although they can function in sunlight, their effectiveness as warriors appears to be enormously compromised.

By contrast, the creatures of Saruman's breeding, including those sufficiently Orkish to consider themselves Uruks, simply don't mind the sun at all. This is what Treebeard observes of them, and what they say of themselves: and one would be forced to conclude that Saruman's Uruks did have sufficient admixture of human genes to tolerate sunlight; therefore, that all of Saruman's Uruk-hai and his non-Dunlending "Men" were hybrids, although his trackers and wolfriders were not necessarily so.


*Not to mention the mountain-trolls that wielded Grond, who presumably are now giant statues!

[Galin]

Littlemanpoet wrote: 'Also, eating man-flesh is no distinguisher of orcishness; cannibals eat man-flesh and they're men.'

Quite true but note also the seemingly derisive remark later: 'It's orc-flesh they eat, I'll warrant'. I'm not even close to being an expert on this but I think some forms of cannibalism are based on warfare and 'eating the enemy'. In this light at least, the Uruk-hai claim that they eat Men -- they eat the 'others' (or in the Primary World the 'other tribe' who are not 'us' but foes) -- and the scoffing comment could be something like (in my opinion): 'ha, you really eat 'us' (Orcs)'.

But however one interprets this, it's only a small part of the puzzle in any case.

William Cloud Hicklin wrote: 'I would propose, as a working hypothesis, that Uruks of all types can be *trained* to tolerate the Sun, although it is still detrimental to purebreed Orcs.'

OK but are you already interpreting here that there are Uruks ('Orcs') who are hybrid? My interpretation is that Uruks and Uruk-hai are Orcs, selectively or specially bred Orcs, trained and disciplined. Uruks were bred in Mordor (with no Men involved) and later, 'many' joined Saruman.

Would Saruman's Uruks be that much different from the large Uruks in Moria, and the huge, swart chieftain? Maybe, maybe not. Many compare the Isengarders to Grishnakh and Company, or to the Orcs at Cirith Ungol later, but the huge chieftain need not be the sole example in all of Mordor of such a formidable Orc.

'In the Pelennor fields, it's interesting that from sunrise and the great Charge onwards the only effective enemies mentioned are various types of Men, until with Aragorn's arrival Imrahil drives various Southrons and "orcs that hated the sunlight;" and *men* fly before Eomer's face. The latter part of the battle, "hard fighting and long labour", again has Southrons and Easterlings as the only named enemies. It would appear as if once the Darkness breaks the Mordor-Orcs have become non-factors in the battle;* although they can function in sunlight, their effectiveness as warriors appears to be enormously compromised.

I'm not sure I would agree that this characterization (enormously compromised by the Sun) appears to be so.

My interpretation: the initial charge of the Rohirrim was the great cause of sending Orcs fleeing towards the River 'like herds before the hunters'. Highly trained mounted warriors were very effective here (as expected), but on the 'further half of the plain were other hosts still unfought' -- the main force of the Haradrim for one -- and with respect to those horsemen who next charged the Rohirrim, note that 'fewer were they [the Rohirrim] but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest'. Indeed the Southron cavalry that was left alive turned and fled as well, so these fared little better than the Orcs, despite being horsed.

Of course there were more Haradrim, and ultimately the Rohirrim are in trouble; and Gothmog sends Easterlings, Variags, Southrons and men 'like half-trolls' into the fray. The Sun is shining but are all the Orcs gone? I think not but Tolkien merely generalizes with the 'hosts of Mordor' being 'enheartened, and filled with a new lust and fury' (because they thought the Corsairs had arrived of course). Then the 'hosts of Mordor' realize their mistake, and it is then that the knights of Dol Amroth drive the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags (repeating these forces from earlier in the text) and 'Orcs that hated the Sunlight' -- so to my mind there were still Orcs in the host (though simply unmentioned earlier), and now they are dealing with more cavalry!

And indeed as noted, there was yet more work to be done. But note too that the Southrons were described as 'fierce in despair', and the Easterlings asked for no quarter. I imagine however that if many Orcs still lived on the field they would arguably be looking for a way out, fleeing instead of rallying, and the text notes that there were those (in general) who fled to die, or drowned in the River. The Southrons and Easterling were arguably tougher to deal with due to size alone, not to mention they appear to have refused to flee once the tide had turned. Once one had decided it's 'to the death' (instead of 'for victory') that can heighten the effectiveness of already hardened warriors. They become the 'notable' opposition left yes, to someone writing about this great battle, but in short, the lack of mention of effective Orcs at this point need have nothing to do with the Sun -- or at least it need not mean their effectiveness was enormously (a strong word) compromised by it.

Did the Sun help? Probably not. Were the Mordorian Orcs as well trained to endure the Sun as Saruman's Uruks? Probably not in general but (back to earlier in the tale) the boasting of the Uruk-hai might tend to mispresent the actual measure of their 'dominance' in this -- indeed they are clearly better than most of the Northerners, yes, but that is not really under question here.

By contrast, the creatures of Saruman's breeding, including those sufficiently Orkish to consider themselves Uruks, simply don't mind the sun at all. This is what Treebeard observes of them, and what they say of themselves: and one would be forced to conclude that Saruman's Uruks did have sufficient admixture of human genes to tolerate sunlight; therefore, that all of Saruman's Uruk-hai and his non-Dunlending "Men" were hybrids, although his trackers and wolfriders were not necessarily so.'

However it is not clearly established (or agreed upon by all) that Treebeard has observed the Uruk-hai and only them -- and if indeed he has, he can be right that Saruman has mixed Orcs with Men (which is but one of his 'wonderings' of course, in any case), but still can be wrong if he thinks this applies to the Uruk-hai. Treebeard is working on a general principle here, and arguably needs more experience with the Orcs of the Third Age (and now that I think of it, I have yet to investigate if every pre-Third Age battle that included Orcs was always conducted under Darkness).

Within this hypothesis I note 'stepping stones' -- interpretations that help lead one down a certain path. Not necessarily 'wrong' ideas or unreasonable; if fact perfectly understandable and possible in my opinion, but not necessarily the only reasonable possibilities either. And so one is not really forced to conclude that Saruman's Uruks did have sufficient admixture of human genes to tolerate sunlight (and etc.), rather this conclusion is but a conclusion, not necessarily 'the' conclusion.

My theory includes different stepping stones of course, leading down a different path to a variant outcome.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

As I said, it's a working hypothesis- one (rough) way to explain the observed data.

There are two datum points which to me are anchors:

1) Saruman did indeed breed human-orc hybrids. This is not merely Treebeard's opinion, but something Tolkien explicitly stated.

2) The Uruk-hai at Helm's Deep declare proudly that the Sun doesn't bother them in the slightest: and the only explanation offered anywhere for such a thing lies in an admixture of Mannish genes.

From these two postulates I think it flows necessarily that Saruman bred some part of his Uruks with human stock. What proportion or which ones is much thornier territory.

(BTW: I'm fully prepared to condider Ghrishnakh and his band 'fully-trained soildier-Orcs', i.e. Uruk-hai. Their running performance is as astounding as Ugluk's, if not more so.)

[littlemanpoet]

Given that there are "squint eyes southerners" and "black Uruk-hai" - quite a range - it would appear that Saruman had been "at it" for at least four generations, if not more.

[Galin]

William Cloud Hicklin wrote: '... and the only explanation offered anywhere for such a thing lies in an admixture of Mannish genes.'

Hmmm, well is this a datum point? as in datum 'a fact or proposition used to draw a conclusion or make a decision', or a postulate? Since I have no problem with the latter, I will only get (admittedly) annoyingly pedantic with the former (if 'fact' is taken as the meaning by some). It gives me a chance to ramble on about my opinions in any case.



To my knowledge JRRT never states that some measure of Mannish blood is needed for Orcs not to mind the Sun. He might state it as a fact in something yet to be published, but obviously that's neither here nor there today. So I assume Treebeard's statement is meant by 'only explanation', which however I contend is not the only explanation that can be gleaned from the texts (though I need not repeat my ideas on training and Uruks).

To the thread in general: if Treebeard is wondering what Saruman has done to Orcs, then one of his 'wonderings' is yet that Saruman has possibly ruined Men -- which is technically doing something to Men not Orcs (or at least this follows from a reasonable interpretation of what he means). So here he is arguably only ruminating that Saruman has possibly ruined Men -- they are then 'orkish', and possibly that is what this is all about ('Orcs' are arguably concerned because of 'orkishness' and because of something he thinks about Orcs that doesn't quite add up here, and because of his next possibility).

OK, and of course his other 'wondering' is that Saruman has actually used Orcs and bred them with Men. And both these possibilities come from his ideas about Orcs and Sunlight of course. At this point Treebeard doesn't know if his second possibility is actually correct, no more than his first.

The Reader might know more later (especially if one has read Morgoth's Ring); indeed the Reader might realize Treebeard's second 'option' is correct, but what he or she also 'finds out' is that there are 'orkish' beings which indeed appear to be hybrids -- beings yet also seemingly distinguished from the Uruk-hai however (Merry's description). And as Rumil already pointed out, the Reader of Unfinished Tales also notes the apparent distinction between Orc-men and Saruman's Uruks.

So what was Treebeard right about (and wrong about) back when speaking to the Hobbits concerning ruined Men or interbreeding? I think we can all agree on that one, but importantly about whom did his correct 'wondering' apply?

I'm using 'wondering' instead of explanation because I think the latter term goes too far in implying a fact -- or if indeed I referred to Ugluk's comment ('half-trained' in connection with running under the Sun) I bet some would object that it's not necessarily an 'explanation'. What they both are, I think I can more safely say, are statements made by characters, not Tolkien, both which imply possibilities about Orcs and the Sun. And of course other factors get mixed in to make a given 'conclusion'.

Littlemanpoet wrote: Given that there are "squint eyes southerners" and "black Uruk-hai" - quite a range - it would appear that Saruman had been "at it" for at least four generations, if not more.

But there are 'black' Uruks from Mordor: 'In the last years of Denethor I the race of Uruks, black Orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.' The Return of the King Appendices

Or, from draft text: The Heirs of Elendil published (though not by Tolkien himself of course) in The Peoples of Middle-Earth ...

'Denethor I. born 2375 lived 102 years died 2477. Great troubles arose in his day. The Morgul-lords having bred in secret a fell race of black Orcs in Mordor assail Ithilien and over-run it.'

Here's something about timeline...

'The Council seems to have been unaware, since for many years Isengard had been closely guarded, of what went on within its Ring. The use, and possibly special breeding, of Orcs was kept secret, and cannot have begun much before 2990 at earliest. The Orc-troops seem never to have been used beyond the territory of Isengard before the attack on Rohan.' Unfinished Tales

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am also interested how this works together with these famous "half-orcs" and "squint-eyed ill-favoured fellows", who surely were Men but not Orcs; however, there is some connection evident between the two. But what exactly, I am not sure. That would be an interesting question to answer.

A most interesting thread. Not sure if this post is germane, but I've been pondering the words "ill-favored" (or "ill-favoured" for my cousins). Now, I get the gist of what's meant by the words when used to describe the other men at Bree - not male model types, never to be mistaken for elves, etc - but the word 'ugly' or some other synonym could have been used.

Why ill-favored?

Does this mean that the idea of 'favored by the Gods' existed in Middle Earth? Were only the beautiful so favored, and so anyone not so blessed must either be ignored by the Gods or even possibly subject to their wrath? Get what I mean? Weren't all orcs ill-favored, or did this just comment apply to men and other beings that turned from the side of Good?

Maybe the comment wasn't meant to be taken so literally, but then again it was spoken in Middle Earth where divine denizens and demi-gods are a dime the dozen.

[skip spence]

I think it is a mistake to see Orcs as a distinct race who are separated from Elves and Men by how they look (ie fangs, long ape-like arms, crooked legs). What constitutes an Orc is rather how it acts IMO although they of course also had many physical characteristics that stood out. Orcs are a representation of all that is bad with mankind. They do nothing that Men haven't done a million times throughout history.

Therefore I think it is difficult to accurately separate the different categories of orcs from each other. The difference between Uruk-Hai, Snaga, Orc-men and even Elves and Men is not clear cut. Just the fact that Men (and Elves in all likelyhood) are interbreedable with Orcs suggest that biologically they are all members of the same species.

If Orcs were some kind of grotesque monsters it's hard to imagine Orc-men blending into human societies. Consider also how the Elves, when they first came face to face with the Orcs in Beleriand, thought them to be Avari gone wild. They clearly recognised them as being kin, albeit cruel and wicked.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

It seems that all replies to this thread had been in unison as to the contributions of Saruman to the ecological wonder of middle-earth: The Orc, the One race which eats, drinks and makes merry (reproduces) like the Children of Illuvator, and yet breeds more after the fashion of rabbits. (10k population in < 60 years)

Actually, I was beginning to suspect that normal Elves and Men were fooled by Dr. Morgoth into participating in Middle Earth's Extreme Makeover. This means that various "races" of orcs were actually Elves, Men, Hobbits or Dwarves recently captured by the dark powers to be operated on. No sense wasting time on training and breeding, right?

To digress somewhat, Olog-hais seemed way more resilient than their distant cement-skinned cousins. And yet, the term Olog-hai sounded more in tune with Uruk-hai. Distant relations?