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Old 07-04-2020, 10:38 AM   #1
monks
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monks is still gossiping in the Green Dragon.
The riddle of the hidden images in the West Gate.

Tolkien's exploration of the medieval 'Loathly Lady' motif through Galadriel, Shelob and Arwen through his geometry, and his implementation of 'The Dance of the Seven Veils'- which I believe finds some if its inspiration in Haggard's 'She'.

To date I've made 29 predictions specifically surrounding this theme. Here's one of them.

Prediction #71
That Tolkien would refer to Shelob as ‘loathly’ or 'loathsome’.

Searching, I found...

“Hardly had Sam hidden the light of the star-glass when she came. A little way ahead and to his left he saw suddenly, issuing from a black hole of shadow under the cliff, the most loathly shape that he had ever beheld, horrible beyond the horror of an evil dream. Most like a spider she was, but huger than the great hunting beasts, and more terrible than they because of the evil purpose in her remorseless eyes.” [TLotR, Book IV, Chapter 9 Shelob’s Lair]

As you can see Tolkien went all the way and actually used the word ‘loathly’.

Here's a link to the article on my website.

http://www.thewindrose.net/blogs/the...ate-drawing-2/

For those not familiar with the 'Loathly Lady', there's a link in the article.

monks

...according to the forum.. apparently I'm "Newly Deceased"...:-D

Last edited by monks; 07-04-2020 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 07-05-2020, 09:26 AM   #2
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To date I've made 29 predictions specifically surrounding this theme. Here's one of them.

Prediction #71
That Tolkien would refer to Shelob as ‘loathly’ or 'loathsome’.
You predicted that before Tolkien wrote the books? Well done! I have to wonder, though, how old you are....

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“Hardly had Sam hidden the light of the star-glass when she came. A little way ahead and to his left he saw suddenly, issuing from a black hole of shadow under the cliff, the most loathly shape that he had ever beheld, horrible beyond the horror of an evil dream. Most like a spider she was, but huger than the great hunting beasts, and more terrible than they because of the evil purpose in her remorseless eyes.” [TLotR, Book IV, Chapter 9 Shelob’s Lair]

As you can see Tolkien went all the way and actually used the word ‘loathly’.
I haven't read LOTR in a shamefully long time, but I don't recall ever keying in on the use of that word, in place of what I would expect, loathsome.
I actually wouldn't know the definition. Just more evidence that Tolkien can still surprise after all this time.

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...according to the forum.. apparently I'm "Newly Deceased"...:-D
Due to your post count, not the time elapsed since you joined.
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Old 07-05-2020, 02:45 PM   #3
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Question

So, the Balrog and Shelob were secretly married and had children (with wings, horns and eight legs each), but don't tell anybody or the Tolkien Estate will send assassins after you to bury the truth.
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Old 07-05-2020, 04:03 PM   #4
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I have to say that monks's Priya Seth connection doesn't overly impress me.

I have found that she makes inferences that, while possible, are just that, and lacking any evidence that they are likely.
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Old 07-06-2020, 08:04 AM   #5
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I made the prediction before Tolkien wrote the book? Haha..why are you saying that? That makes no sense to me...I made that prediction a few months ago as logged on my website here and as found in the pdf.

http://www.thewindrose.net/predictions/

The prediction is dated 27/05/20

Regards being 'impressed' with the Seth connection...

The anagrams are real that Priya Seth found, but her arguments are incorrect regards the Balrog wing. Her argument relies on Tolkien predicting that his readership would be inquiring about the corporeality of Balrog wings. No one knew Balrog's existed before he wrote TLotR so there was no discourse in the readership about that or Balrogs at all. I know what his riddle is referring to.
As I was hastily scanning her book I made 3 predictions as to what her solutions would be. I knew what was coming because I'd already found 10 instances of his monogram. Two of those instances are in the West and North gates. They are paired. I found his monogram in the north gate 4 years ago now.

One of the anagrams that she dismissed as ungrammatical is also an anagram. WELL DEEM, NO FLIGHT IN FALL EH. I also told her that. That would make the 5th anagram. That corresponds to the Ring in his monogram. Where is the Ring?

It's the circle blob at the bottom of the letter 'J'. The Ring is a 'closed circle' -just like the Iron Crown of Melkor is intended. The closed circle represents the ouroborus. The closed circle is here in his letters:

We shall never recover it, for that is not the way of repentance, which works spirally and not in a closed circle; we may recover something like it, but on a higher plane.

I other words...in the monogram, you cannot climb from the closed circle of hell up to God where the Door to the Afterlife is at the flame- see below for an explanation.

You can read about how his planar geometry works on my homepage. It has its source in Plato's Republic.

Why would his monogram be in his works in that fashion?

Because the letters in his languages represent the material structures of the World just like ideograms as found in the commentaries on the mystic Talmud; The Zohar. Moreover, all of our letters in our alphabet derive from ideograms from the Ancient world. Tolkien's 'Floral Alphabet' is an ideogrammatic cipher to the letters of his languages. His landscape is a medieval symbolic landscape after the Arthurian Romances.

This is how his monogram breaks down.

J = the Dragon, the oak. See floral Alphabet.
T = bet, beth, the birch from the Tree alphabet Beth-Luis-Nion and from Hebrew = home.
R = Wrath from the Floral alphabet letter 'r', the 'roaring wave'. Note how the two Rs in his monogram are back to back, just like the male and female figures in the West Gate in my essay. Orientation in his world is key to understanding it. The two Rs represent the left and right hands of Ilúvatar- female and male, left and right sides of the geometry. Their orientation is away from each other represent strife because orientation is key. Wrath was introduced at the point where the geometry was created in the discords of Melkor. It is a fallen world because of that and consequently we have 'battle of the sexes'.The Ring is at the bottom of the world in hell.

So we have the birch and the oak. Left and right hands of the geometry (two Rs) and the Ring.

The Ring is at the bottom because that's where hell is.

At the top you have the flame because that's where the Door to the Afterlife is.

In other words, as I said, the letters represent the material structures of the World. The J and T are the Two Trees, Moon and Sun, right and left hands in the geometry in my analysis. The letter T is the World Tree. The letter J is the dragon (the Enemy) coiling around it.

This is the Tree of Tails (pun on Tale).

http://www.thewindrose.net/blogs/a-r...e/treeoftails/

That's the birch and the oak, T and J of the monogram. Hell lies at the bottom.

And his monogram just_so_happens to occur for the first time in the illustration 'Eeriness' in which you can blatantly see the geometry in the landscape- the medieval symbolic landscape.

http://www.thewindrose.net/blogs/tol...s_door_post-2/

His monogram and the geometry are all bound up together.

And that's why he included a 5th anagram.

I can also explain the two sets of 4 dots in the monogram, I told Priya Seth that.

So, I've got 99 predictions over 15 years based on this understanding from the rigorous analysis of etymologies of his words in the texts...1000s of them.....and you think I'm here to pull your collective leg huh? lolzzz As I state in the essay and elsewhere on my website, TOLKIEN HAS A SYSTEM AND HE IS PREDICTABLE.

btw Priya is great. One of the best active out there at the moment because she thinks for herself. I could make some supporting comments on her Shakespeare connections too but wrong thread. Her essay on Goldberry- the first part which I've read, is correct on all counts.

I did get the joke btw yeh newly deceased..funny that! :-D

monks

Last edited by monks; 01-03-2021 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 07-06-2020, 09:14 AM   #6
monks
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@Pitchwife....heh..Tolkien assigns EVERYTHING in his world to the 3 sides (Ilúvatar's hands) of the geometry- of the right angled triangle he took from Plato's Republic.

That's why the Balrog and Shelob can co-exist. In fact you can concatenate a very long list of correspondences to the left and right hands of the geometry. For e.g..

Tolkien-right-A (alef)-Literature-Space-Bombadil-oak-Ursa Minor-Thor-Sword-Silver-2-....

Edith- left- B (bet)-Language-Time-Goldberry-birch-Ursa Major-Odin-Shield-Gold-6-....

The list goes on...

The narrative works on the dialectic, the conversation between the planes in the geometry- the left and right hands. The dialectic is from Plato. That conversation has tension and resolution- just like Music in fact. The Music of the Ainur- the Music of the spheres- Sun and Moon (Edith and Tolkien). Movement between the planes is via a device called THE TURN.

http://www.thewindrose.net/hello-wor...eafterwards-2/

Two essays on that here:-
http://www.thewindrose.net/research/...-in-principle/

..as applied to the Denethor TURN..
http://www.thewindrose.net/research/...n-in-practice/

The analysis of the Denethor turn began with Prediction #6 dated 01/09/17.

Tolkien Prediction #6. That the first instance where Denethor makes the statement 'The West has failed' in the Lord of the Rings would contain the word or reference to 'spirit' in the text.

‘Why? Why do the fools fly?’ said Denethor. ‘Better to burn sooner than late, for burn we must. Go back to your bonfire! And I? I will go now to my pyre. To my pyre! No tomb for Denethor and Faramir. No tomb! No long slow sleep of death embalmed. We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West. The West has failed. Go back and burn!’
The messengers without bow or answer turned and fled.
Now Denethor stood up and released the fevered hand of Faramir that he had held. ‘He is burning, already burning,’ he said sadly. ‘The house of his spirit crumbles.’ Then stepping softly towards Pippin he looked down at him.

This prediction was generated from my theory of Tolkien's systematic (and predictable) use of rational planes, geometry and language change. While reading Tom Shippey's 'Tolkien: Author of the Century' I read about Denethor and Théoden and how they were linked as characters according to Shippey. From his remarks I had a strong hunch that the Denethor pyre sequence incorporated one of my theories: a narrative device for the movement between rational planes.

I was able to predict the appearance in the first instance of the sequence of three.

How did I do that then?...Answer: Tolkien has a SYSTEM. A mathematical system as he told Clive Kilby in Tolkien and the Silmarillion. Shippey said that Denethor repeats a phrase 3 times. That's when I made the prediction.

So...The Nazgűl and spiders dwell on the plane of the hypotenuse. The Ring eventually confines you to this plane. Gollum is in the process of being stretched like Bilbo...but he is much further on in the process...that's why he exhibits a split personality between the two sides of the geometry...Slinker and Stinker.

Tolkien uses the idiomatic expression 'thick and thin' (the travails of life and his marriage) and assigns them to the 3 sides of the triangle. Thick = Time and Space (opposite and adjacent). Thin = the hypotenuse, grey world, twilight in between.

This understanding is why I was able to make prediction #60 dated 05/04/20.

http://www.thewindrose.net/predictions/

Here's a snip from it...

I predicted that the diagonal lines of writing would be referred to as thin.

On the flat under-side Frodo saw some scratches: 'There seems to be a stroke, a dot, and three more strokes,' he said.
'The stroke on the left might be a G-rune with thin branches,' said Strider.
...
It would also show that he was in a hurry and danger was at hand, so that he had no time or did not dare to write anything longer or plainer.

The diagonal lines in the rune are here referred to as thin.

I have long suspected (for about 2 years) that Tolkien was mapping the notion of "thick and thin" to the opposite and adjacent sides of his geometry- that is mapping them to Time and Space. He does this with all dualities. Thick and thin is a duality. However more recently I became convinced that this mapping was different. I concluded that he was mapping the duality to the two sides to the opposite and adjacent as thick and the side of the hypotenuse as thin. I concluded this from the understanding that both Time and Space are symbolic of conflict. Time and Space, which represent Tolkien and Edith, and the left and right hands of Ilúvatar in the dialectic, are in conflict, but they can reach a state of harmony in the hypotenuse at twilight.

The diagonal is the hypotenuse..and guess what?...linking this post to the previous one above..it's the line you can draw between the two sets of 4 dots in his monogram.

Yeh, please if you know anyone from the Tolkien estate PLEASE DO get them over. I'd be very happy to talk to them all day long.

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