Bloodstained Elanor Planning/Discussion Thread

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

*whew* Just reading your posts tires me out, Durelin. Where do you possibly find the time?

As always, many interesting points that a) intrigue me and b) promise to make the game fun.

OK, first, I simply have to make a point about Galadriel and the Ring and temptation (and then I swear I will shut up about this -- in this thread at least). The temptation of Galadriel by the Ring is real and a very near thing in the book just as in the film -- in fact, I would argue that the temptation is even 'worse' for the book-Galadriel than for the movie-Galadriel inasmuch as b-Gal is more overtly 'aware' of what the destruction of the One will mean to her own power in Middle-Earth and for Lorien. In both book and movie, at any rate, she admits that "I do not dey that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands", which makes perfect sense since she came to Middle-Earth with Feanor not to recover the Silmarils ("No oaths she swore") but because "she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will".

The only other beings who left the West for Middle-Earth to do that were Morgoth and Sauron! Galadriel is a VERY dangerous person, and the trial she faced when Frodo offered her the Ring was the most significant threat to the Quest (I believe).

But enough of this. . .on to my (beloved) Houseless.

I'm glad that this idea has a chance of staying in the game, but I realise that the conversation about it has a) been somewhat too vaguely defined and b) begun to derail planning the other elements. In order to give this some kind of context then, with the hopes of moving past it to other topics, these were the ideas I had for this thread:

The host is an extremely powerful and ancient Elf: one of Celeborn's longest serving retainers from out of Doriath. He is proud and 'fey': he has little respect for Men, save, perhaps Aragorn, and none for the other peoples of Middle-Earth. The only thing that keeps him from taking a ship into the West is his loyalty to Celeborn and his respectful love, bordering on adoration, for the Lady Galadriel. He is in command of the border patrol that is attacked by orcs. In and amongst this attack, the Houseless fea of his brother comes to him to plead for admission. His brother was killed by a balrog in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad so even though the host is well aware of the dangers, he is unable to say no. At first, the 'merger' is a happy one as the Houseless is able to convince the host that his presence will allow them to travel with the orcs to Dol Guldur where they can see what preparations are being made against Lorien. But slowly the Houseless gains more and more control and it is only by the greatest act of will, and with the aid of his companions from Lorien who have followed him, that the host escapes.

The Houseless then flees into the body of an Easterling (gotta love them) and the host takes it as his duty to slay the Easterling host so that he can 'free' his brother's fea. He hopes that there is something Galadriel will be able to do to give his brother peace, at long last.

At any event -- is this the kind of idea that you are happy with Durelin? And, Pio -- is this within the parameters of what you were thinking of? And, would it be poor form for me to ask -- nay, beg -- that I be considered for this part, should it end up being included in the game?

[piosenniel]

The host is an extremely powerful and ancient Elf: one of Celeborn's longest serving retainers from out of Doriath. He is proud and 'fey': he has little respect for Men, save, perhaps Aragorn, and none for the other peoples of Middle-Earth. The only thing that keeps him from taking a ship into the West is his loyalty to Celeborn and his respectful love, bordering on adoration, for the Lady Galadriel. He is in command of the border patrol that is attacked by orcs. In and amongst this attack, the Houseless fea of his brother comes to him to plead for admission. His brother was killed by a balrog in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad so even though the host is well aware of the dangers, he is unable to say no. At first, the 'merger' is a happy one as the Houseless is able to convince the host that his presence will allow them to travel with the orcs to Dol Guldur where they can see what preparations are being made against Lorien. But slowly the Houseless gains more and more control and it is only by the greatest act of will, and with the aid of his companions from Lorien who have followed him, that the host escapes.

The Houseless then flees into the body of an Easterling (gotta love them) and the host takes it as his duty to slay the Easterling host so that he can 'free' his brother's fea. He hopes that there is something Galadriel will be able to do to give his brother peace, at long last.

__________________________________

This sounds good (read 'allowable' here by me) . . .BUT - I need this section explained more fully:

His brother was killed by a balrog in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad so even though the host is well aware of the dangers, he is unable to say no.

You will need to give me a well thought out explanation of why the Ancient Elf/Host’s brother had decided to refuse the call of Mandos after his death at the hands of the balrog and now wanders as a Houseless fëa. What makes him so different from his brother - who I’m sure would never refuse Mandos’ call should his body die?

And why would the presence of this Houseless Brother in the Ancient Elf’s body allow them to travel with the orcs to Dol Guldur?

Whose influence is the Houseless Brother's fëa under? Sauron?

And what do you have in mind for Galadriel’s intervention?

[Roa_Aoife]

Sorry, Durelin, but you seem to have forgotten about the envoy from Lorien. And this is also to let you know that I won't be posting agian till sunday night.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

You will need to give me a well thought out explanation of why the Ancient Elf/Host’s brother had decided to refuse the call of Mandos after his death at the hands of the balrog and now wanders as a Houseless fëa. What makes him so different from his brother - who I’m sure would never refuse Mandos’ call should his body die?

As it happens, I've been wondering why any Elf would refuse the call. In the case of this fellow, however, I would think that he refused it from a mixture of pride and the refusal to accept change (which were the downfall of all-too-many Elves in the First Age). First, he died when the threat from Morgoth to Middle-Earth was still very real and he was still very attached to it. Being of the Firstborn but not one of the Noldor, he had already made his decision in favour of Middle-Earth rather than the Valar a long time before. He decides to remain in Middle-Earth from a refusal to accept that his time to leave the story had come; and he was proud enough to believe that he could resist the powers of darkness. He even thought that he could lend the Elves some aid in their wars, and for a time he was even able to do this to a certain extent by hindering the wills of their enemies and 'whispering' (so that it felt like inspiration or instinct) to his friends.

And why would the presence of this Houseless Brother in the Ancient Elf’s body allow them to travel with the orcs to Dol Guldur?

Whose influence is the Houseless Brother's fëa under? Sauron?

The Houseless is under the control of Sauron, but his pride is such that he thinks that he is fooling the Dark Lord, and he is able for a time to convince his brother-host that they are merely 'playing along' with Sauron's plans. In reality, Sauron has decieved the Houseless into seizing control of his brother in order to bring back someone to Dol Guldur who will be able to provide the Easterlings with information about the Lorien defenses. The orcs and Easterlings in the raiding party are very much aware of this plan and of their mission to return the Elf to Dol Guldur unharmed (mostly).

And what do you have in mind for Galadriel’s intervention?

I don't imagine that Galadriel will be able to do anything -- the host Elf, though, is hoping that she might. I am assuming that with the fall of Sauron his control over the Houseless, like his control over all of his slaves, will be broken and the Houseless will be 'free' once more.

[Durelin]

The Houseless is under the control of Sauron, but his pride is such that he thinks that he is fooling the Dark Lord, and he is able for a time to convince his brother-host that they are merely 'playing along' with Sauron's plans.

Hmmmm...the basic idea is great (I really don't know where you get those things!), but, as Pio said, there are questions that must be answered. And, unfortunately, I don't believe that is a suitable explanation. It just doesn't...make sense.

I have always believed that there is no question when someone has complete control over someone. And, as this elf is now a spirit who has refused to return to the Halls of Mandos, a spirit full of pride, injured perhaps by his death (even at the power of a balrog: perhaps fear overcame him at facing such a demon). It makes sense that it has been a good number of years since this elf died. With even a year wandering as a rather angry spirit (great pride, broken pride, both can make one pretty angry), this spirit has got to be an easy target for Sauron, and easily reduced to a servant. Most likely the spirit would have sheltered in several bodies, perhaps even that of an orc: an easy target for a Houseless desperate for the shelter of a body. With practice at taking over bodies, and perhaps even evicting evil souls, this spirit is going to lose much of its former pureness and strength. Perhaps the pride would continue, even once the spirit is under Sauron's powerful grip, but I believe that this pride would be reduced to the pride of serving Sauron. I'm sure there would be much more satisfaction in being proud of serving the Dark Lord than trying to deny that he is under Sauron's control. So, this may not work: except that, the fact that he is his brother, still leaves the option of sympathy open.

Unfortunately, the elf host you described, though truly, he is a pretty good host, he doesn't seem the type to feel sympathy, even for a brother who got himself killed by a Balrog.

Of course, once corrupted by the power Sauron has over the dead (he does have power over the spirits who linger, doesn’t he?), the spirit might then (in pride) wish to deceive his master, so that he may be the master (of himself, at least). This does not change the fact, though, that he is under the power of Sauron. I doubt that the spirit would even be able to take over a elven body without accepting Sauron’s power over him. Denying it would cause complications, I believe, with the Houseless fighting an inner battle. He also denies a dark power he might have when following Sauron’s wishes.

Okay, I kind of blathered there. I had a lot of thoughts, and its all so abstract. It’s like trying to come up with a definition of truth. I mean, the question I was attempting to answer is quite absurd sounding, really: ’What would a angst-filled, proud wandering spirit without a body do and not do? What could it do?’ That was two questions, I know, but both are decidedly odd, to say the least.

The basics are on the lines of what I thought, though I believe you took it a step beyond. It’s an amazing idea, though, if it will work. I’m not so sure at this point, as I am doubtful of everything right now. Sorry, but…it’s part of my personality, I guess.

We may not even need the spirit to be the host elf’s brother, as there is the option for the Houseless to force the host out of its body. Any way it works, it is going to take time and…it’s going to be insanely, murderously complicated!

I’ll be back with more, soon, but that’s a lot of thought for one post…so…

Sorry, Durelin, but you seem to have forgotten about the envoy from Lorien.

I’m not sure what you mean by that…unless you are referring to my saying that female characters can not be a part of the game at this point?

Well, if that is the case: I was really not sure if that would work. First of all, someone had spoken like the envoy was traveling with the scout party. Women aren’t to be tramping around in the woods with orcs around looking for the traces of the lost border patrols, even if that is just a ’side trip’. Still, if the envoy simply went straight to Mirkwood, there could only be one, or at the most two (maybe!) female ’counselors’, and they would be under a heavy guard, I’m afraid. And they would not scorn this, either.

Just reading your posts tires me out, Durelin. Where do you possibly find the time?

Glad I’m making you have to think, Fordim! Sorry, but that always is great fun for me. I’m a fast typer, I believe, and have had much practice at getting my thoughts down at least somewhat coherently. Perhaps the fact that I do it so quickly makes it all the more challenging and confusing! But, I actually don’t have the time, in truth, to post that long so often. Somehow, I do. I shouldn’t have the time.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Unfortunately, the elf host you described, though truly, he is a pretty good host, he doesn't seem the type to feel sympathy, even for a brother who got himself killed by a Balrog.

Of course, once corrupted by the power Sauron has over the dead (he does have power over the spirits who linger, doesn’t he?), the spirit might then (in pride) wish to deceive his master, so that he may be the master (of himself, at least). This does not change the fact, though, that he is under the power of Sauron. I doubt that the spirit would even be able to take over a elven body without accepting Sauron’s power over him. Denying it would cause complications, I believe, with the Houseless fighting an inner battle. He also denies a dark power he might have when following Sauron’s wishes.

*Fordim falls off his chair laughing * Welcome to my world Durelin! It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who's getting his or her head entirely messed up with this. . .

The complications you point to are precisely the reason why I think this idea will work so well in this game, and why I want to explore it. You seem to want to have this all 'nailed down' before the game starts, but I'd much rather let these sorts of details be worked out as the game goes on -- better yet, I'd like to see them all 'in play' but never really 'resolved'. Again, that's where the real brilliance of LotR lies: is Gollum evil for craving the Ring, or good for having had an unwitting hand in destroying it? Is Frodo evil for taking the Ring (or was he even operating according to his own will)? The orcs are Sauron's slaves, and yet they are always fighting amongst themselves and going against orders -- does he have total control over them or not? Is Boromir corrupted by the Ring, or is he an already corrupt Man responding to the Ring? Everyone can (and usually does) find their own answers to these questions.

But your points, as always, are well taken and I shall attempt to address them. Sauron is absolutely in control of the Houseless, but -- you are right -- the Houseless is so proud in spirit (get it? spirit? proud? I kill me) that he feels he is in charge and that he is fooling the true master: think Denethor and Saruman, both of whom were doing the Dark Lord's bidding, convinced that they were doing what they wanted (not to mention Frodo who thought, when he put on the Ring, that he was making a decision of and for himself rather than succumbing to the Ring).

So it does get rather complicated -- but such is the nature of power in Middle Earth: Sauron controls the Houseless; the Houseless thinks that he is in control; Sauron knows this and lets the Houseless continue in his fantasy of self-determination as it makes the Houseless more easy to control -- "I'm not really the slave of Sauron" says the Houseless to himself, "so I'm not harming my brother, I'm helping him"; host Elf at first believes that the Houseless is not Sauron's slave -- "heh heh, good plan bro', you've really fooled that Dark Lord"; host and Houseless discover their mistake -- perhaps when they do, the Houseless is able to manage just enough 'energy' to help pull himself out of the brother before succumbing entirely to Sauron??? [New thought, let me mull further. . .]

As to the brother's sympathy for the Houseless -- he would, naturally, feel great sympathy for his brother, as any brother would. But I imagine that the even more compelling reason for his acceptance of the Houseless would be a decidedly Elvish sense of familial duty and loyalty; what's more, the promise of being able to 'team up' with his brother and to strike a real blow against Sauron (and here imagine Sauron laughing maniacally at how he has fooled them both) would be more than he could resist.

Totally Unrelated Thought -- has Sauron ever appeared, either as a character or NPC, in an RPG. . .might be a fun idea for another totally different game someday.

I'm afraid I agree with the comments re: Elvish women coming along for the ride in this one -- looks like it's going to have to be a boys' adventure. . .

[Durelin]

Here comes a record short post for me on this planning thread!

Okay, Fordim, before we go any further, I'd like to hear from you just how you envision this spirit as a being, and how you believe it gains access to a body. In the case of this spirit, how is he to convince his brother? Through pity? If he is full of pride, can he lower himself to asking for pity without actually being truthful to himself concerning his loyalty to Sauron?

I think your ideas are quite amazingly creative, Fordim, and you're definitely the one who's contributing the most at this point. Most likely because you seem to have the time!

I would also like you to consider one thing Fordim: how are we to express the Houseless as an actual character in the game?

That is one of the foremost reasons why I have been so reluctant to accept the Houseless. They are not the kind of things that can be easily fit into roleplays. Elves are already hard to roleplay as it is.

Anyway, I am a bit busy, so I will be back with a much longer post later!

Unfortunately, we have slowed down on the planning thread. I hope everyone can keep contributing, and perhaps a little more than they have been. I understand Aman and Aylwen's position, and GaladrieloftheOlden is unable to reply to threads because of a technical problem. But, this feels like a 'one-on-one' discussion with Fordim!

Thanks!

-Durelin

[Roa_Aoife]

Hiya! Sorry bout the delay, school's been rough lately. I really like the idea of the houseless. However, could we also look at the other groups a little more. The houseless idea has dominated the discussion, and the other groups aren't really being addressed properly. I understand the scouting party from Mirkwood, but did we ever come up with a reason for the Lorien group other than envoy? I also see your point point about female elves getting in the way, but don't underestimate them. Luthien was able to place Morgoth under a spell. Not mention she killed a vampire and wore it's skin... well, you get the point.

[Durelin]

I know it is dominating the discussion, and that's why Fordim has PMed me to help clear things up.

He is right in one point: many things should be allowed to just be played out in the game. Everything can be set down, or it's just no fun.

So, I believe we can continue to discuss possibilities concerning the houseless, anyone who wishes too, over PM. That way, the planning thread can return to being more open to discussion.

Soon (I promise), I will get a sketchy RPG proposal filled out. Fordim suggested one with the Houseless a part of the story, one without. These will be general, of course.

And, actually, the Lorien scout party is the one that has the reason to be out wandering. The Mirkwood scout party does not have a defined purpose, as far as I remember. A Mirkwood scout party was only really mentioned, as I recall.

Here, I will post these outlines again (with some revisions and additions), as they sum up much of the options discussed:

Houseless Possibility:

Lorien envoy/scout troop (which one?) find inner border patrols gone, without any signs of dead or with signs of slaughter obvious, and follow tracks to Mirkwood.
-Tracks: Lead into a trap?
-The work of careless orcs and easterlings?
Mirkwood scouts carefully make their way south toward Dol Guldur, perhaps following the trail of the orcs and easterlings sent to take prisoners back to Dol Guldur, and to gain reinforcements?
-Catch up: confrontation, elves freed, learn of Houseless (or just that there’s more of an army back in Mirkwood), run back to help out Lorien group
-Catch up: confrontation: one or some of the Houseless are with the party of orcs and easterlings
a. defeated: cannot face power of Houseles
-Captured?
-Killed?
-Become Houseless?
b. win: orcs and easterlings refuse to take orders from Houseless?
-this seems unlikely, unfortunately
Meanwhile, with Lorien group: come to Mirkwood
-Find ambush awaiting them
Or
-Just catch up with Houseless and crew
-Confront Houseless
-Bring back from dark side
(somewhere in that battle the Mirkwood elves could come to rescue)
Envoy makes contact with Mirkwood elves, at last, and so we come to the united army bit
Army marches from Dol Guldur
Last Stand
Destruction of Ring
Victory

------------

United Army Possibility #1:
Scouts find the army:
-already on the move
-Preparing to attack
Report back
Seek aid from Thranduil
-Envoy: incorporate more characters, of more types than elven warrior/scout
-Inner borders must hold
-Aid gained from Thranduil: united forces drive back orc army
-End here
or
-Move on to destruction of Dol Guldur

-------------

United Army Possibility #2:
Scouts encounter Orc scout troop:
-Skirmish
-Capture orc
-Learn plans of army
From here:
-Move to above possibility,
-Above possibility + Houseless
or
-Lorien stands alone

------------

A Summary of the Basics:

The outer border patrols of Lorien have disappeared. A scout party is sent to investigate. An orc army is discovered to be near or even inside the edges of the forest. - or, a survivor is found: Houseless. Either way, an army is preparing to attack Lorien from Dol Guldur. It may be that Mirkwood is also being attacked. But, Lorien needs aid. An envoy is sent to Mirkwood to ask Thranduil for aid. While the envoy is gone, the soldiers of Lorien must hold back the orcs. (another viewpoint) They return with soldiers of Mirkwood, surprising them from behind. Perhaps they could intercept the orc/easterling patrol we spoke of returning to Dol Guldur with hostages - or with the Houseless (as he now has a body, so he's done his work??). The orc/easterling (an easterling leader work well) army is defeated. Skip to the meeting in Mirkwood renewed, the renaming.

------------

What I do not want everyone to be so set on is 'plot twists'. Plot twists should not be set down during planning, an they should not be entire events or characters added as a twist. If that is what you wish to add the Houseless for, I hope you will reconsider. 'Plot twists' are formed as characters develop, once we actually begin to roleplay. How characters act, react, think, feel: that is what makes a story interesting, as well as a strong, sensible, good storyline.

No, I have not thrown out the idea of Houseless. Of course not. But, I want the discussion to become much more of a planning thread for a RPG, rather than a discussion about these spirits. Once we reach an idea of a storyline, we will see if the Houseless fit, and are still desired as an aspect to the story.

I hope I didn't sound nasty or anything. I'm just trying to get things straightened out...but I feel so nasty doing it!

~

Concerning females: I do not doubt their power, I merely know that it is not realistic for elf women to be running around in the forests during the War of the Ring when orcs were practically closing in. I most likely would have accpeted this fact, as well.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

United Army Possibility #1:
Scouts find the army:
-already on the move
-Preparing to attack
Report back
Seek aid from Thranduil
-Envoy: incorporate more characters, of more types than elven warrior/scout
-Inner borders must hold
-Aid gained from Thranduil: united forces drive back orc army
-End here
or
-Move on to destruction of Dol Guldur

For what it's worth, I prefer this scenario to the others. It's clean, simple, and allows for the greatest variety in characters.

I'm no longer keen on the Houseless (for reasons that are too tiring for me to get into here -- I've already PM'ed with Durelin on this and *whew*: in brief, though, there's no way that I can see having any Houseless without them becoming what the rpg is all about, and that's not what I think this rpg should be about).

The second united army scenario I don't like because it's too 'easy' to capture an orc and have it spill the beans. Besides, how would the Elves do that? Torture???

The outer border patrols of Lorien have disappeared. A scout party is sent to investigate. An orc army is discovered to be near or even inside the edges of the forest. - or, a survivor is found: Houseless. Either way, an army is preparing to attack Lorien from Dol Guldur. It may be that Mirkwood is also being attacked. But, Lorien needs aid. An envoy is sent to Mirkwood to ask Thranduil for aid. While the envoy is gone, the soldiers of Lorien must hold back the orcs. (another viewpoint) They return with soldiers of Mirkwood, surprising them from behind. Perhaps they could intercept the orc/easterling patrol we spoke of returning to Dol Guldur with hostages - or with the Houseless (as he now has a body, so he's done his work??). The orc/easterling (an easterling leader work well) army is defeated. Skip to the meeting in Mirkwood renewed, the renaming.

That's some good work of distillation Durelin! I think to tighten this up we should:

1. remove the Houseless

2. have the orcs and easterlings take prisoner the envoy from Lorien to Mirkwood

3. have these hostages freed by the Mirkwood scouting party ("hey, where were those orcs taking you?" "To Dol Guldur, there's an army attacking Lorien -- we need your help" "an army attacking Lorien?! Let's go!").

4. Lorien Elves hold out until Thranduil can get there.

This would give us a lot of options for players perspectives:

The envoy
The orcs and easterlings
The Lorien army holding off the orcs and easterlings
The mirkwood scouting party
(The army of Thranduil?)

[Roa_Aoife]

I think I agree with Fordhim. And Durelin, I know you're right about the females... just holding out hope, you know. We should definitely move towards variety in charachters. While the Houseless could be a plot twist, they also create many interesting scenarios. Not to mention loads of fun. I'm still holding out for the Lorien group to be an Envoy. it gives more purpose to their presence, and an intial mission besides the usual business of scouting. For all of you to know, my spring break is this week. I'll post when I can.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

I'm incredibly sorry for my sudden absence - just a tad busy this week is all. So sorry!

Anyway, I like the United Army #1 idea, as well:

The second united army scenario I don't like because it's too 'easy' to capture an orc and have it spill the beans.

Exactly. It'd make a very very short game, I think. Spot on, Fordim!

About the Houseless...I'm not really for or against them really, more indifferent than anything else. It's been an ongoing idea, it seems, and I hate to see so much good planning go to waste, but whether you decide to add the Houseless or not, I'll go along with it.

This is so excellent, and coming along so well! Impressive...

-Aylwen

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I've been thinking (uh oh. . .) and this idea of having Thranduil come to the rescue of the Lorien Elves is perhaps not such a good one.

First, there's no mention made anywhere of Thranduil marching out of Mirkwood -- or even a sizeable army of his having to do so. It also doesn't make much sense -- I mean, Lorien is guarded by Galadriel and Nenya: if anything, they're in a better position than Thranduil. Finally, Thranduil's kingdom is a long long long way away, so for there to be time for him to send aid, there would have to be an army of his already heading south through Mirkwood for some reason.

So how about this: no Mirkwood army, but a scouting party. They spot a large army of orcs and easterlings heading for Lorien. They then free the Lorien envoy (which could have some females ), then the freed Envoy and the Mirkwood scouting party have to try and race back to Lorien ahead of the easterling/orc army to warn of the attack.

Lots of potential for plot there I think: evade the orcs and easterlings, get across the Anduin (with the only fords held against them?); before the freeing of the envoy, there could be lots of interaction between the captured Elves and the orcs and Easterlings; and the potential for three groups/scenarios (Envoy, Mirkwood scouts, and orcs/easterlings).

Of course, the Elves get to Lorien ahead of the baddies and raise the alarm succesfully! Here's a thought -- perhaps they could do some 'spying' or something on the way and give some precious intel to Celeborn and Galadriel: something that really makes a difference in the battle?? (Could an Elf be successfully disguised as an Easterling. . .? A huge stretch, I know, but it would make for some interesting plot lines -- maybe not that big a stretch really: Frodo and Sam were able to pass for orcs!)

[Durelin]

I see your point about the orc capture. I just wanted to see if there was a way we could have interaction with orcs and/or easterlings and elves, without elves being captured, as that could become too much of a generic rescue story.

But, where you're going, Fordim, is not a generic rescue story.

Let's see if I can build on that. Here we go. And don't laugh, I'm thinking and trying to type at the same time.

~

Dol Guldur is in Southern Mirkwood, correct? Very far south. Would scouts be keeping Dol Guldur under surveillance? If they would be, then it is possible that a scout party from Mirkwood could detect movement at Dol Guldur, and observe the army as it marches toward Lorien.

At this point a desicion must be made: to report back what they have seen, or, to continue following the army. The latter would allow them to aid Lorien, while the former would not allow them time to reach their bretheren before they are attacked.

They decide to continue to follow the army. At some point, when they have entered the edges of the forest, or are about to enter, they catch up again enabling them to spy on the army once more. The reason they have caught up. they find in their spying, is because the army now has captives. Or, they have caught up only to a party of orcs and easterlings heading back to Dol Guldur with captives. These captives are elves of the envoy/scout troop from Lorien.

The party has just divided from the army, and the army is still in sight of the Mirkwood scouts. If they continue on, they will remain within a spying distance of the army, and may have the chance of overcoming them. But, this means they abandon the prisoners. They decide to try and free the captives, as they are in immediate danger, and the scouting party's information will be valuable even if the battle begins before they can reach the Lorien elves. (Possible 'information' listed after plot summary)

They lay in wait for the party heading to Dol Guldur, a small skirmish follows, and the captives are rescued. From the Lorien envoy/scout troop they learn more of Lorien's plight, and more of the inner workings of the army, filling in the gaps within the information gathered during their observation of the army. With a larger 'force', they head to Lorien. Unfortunately they are slowed by wounded prisoners.

Upon reaching Lorien, they use their information to aid Lorien to victory. They either make their way across the Anduin, looping around to the north (or south) a bit and coming into Lorien north (or south) of the battle and give their information to the defenders. Or, they come up from behind the army from Dol Guldur and use their knowledge to effectively scatter the orcs and easterlings with such a small force.

~

Much depends on what exactly the information is that they gain from observing/trailing the army. Here are some possibilities:

• Dead orcs/easterlings are found while trailing army: fights between the two races - think Uruk hai vs. normal orcs (this is used often to the free people's advantage!)
  
• Dead orc/easterling leaders are found while trailing the army: fighting among the leadership - this would be confirmed by the rescued captives (alone it is not a very strong advantage to know this without complex planning ahead of time, but combined with other knowledge it could prove more than important)
  
• Deserters are discovered while trailing the army, and are killed or avoided by the scout party: leadership has stirred mutiny among the grunts - this would be confirmed by the rescued captives (again, probably not easily a strong advantage)
  
• All the army's strength has been placed in a certain position: think Greek phalanx - the best troops were placed on the right, then finally Alexander (or Philip...one of them, I believe) put his strength on the left to face this (alone it is not a very strong advantage to know this, but combined with other knowledge it could prove more than important)
  
• Army swings to the north (or south, but then they'd have two rivers to cross): perhaps Lorien is less protected there - if the scout party is able to reach Lorien before the army, the defenders could meet the army at the Anduin, using the river to their advantage, and surprising them (because the number of troops available to defend Lorien is most likely is not too many, this may not be too efective without more intel/another advantage combined with it)
  
  If the army went to the south and the defenders were alerted of this, the need to cross two rivers could give them even more of an advantage.
  
  As long as the scout party reaches Lorien a good time ahead of the army, the defenders will be able to use the Great River to their advantage, no matter which direction the army comes from really. (Yes, there are exceptions, but I doubt the army would use any of them, as they would waste time. For example, crossing the river far to the north/south.

~

One more big question that must be answered:

You will notice that I put 'Lorien envoy/scout troop'. This is because, with a unification of Mirkwood and Lorien gone from this particular plot option, the purpose of an envoy needs to be found. The only type of envoy I can think of might be one that is reporting to patrols, and that one would not contain any females, so it might as well be a scout troop. Also, I doubt an envoy would be beyond the borders of Lorien (which they would have to be, I am thinking, ot be captured), as the outer patrols remain within the forest. Right now, I can't think of a reason for an envoy, though I believe such a party, containing at least one female character (with an actual part) would be more than excellent.

~

I hate to see so much good planning go to waste

I know what you mean, Aylwen. I suggested it be saved for another game if it is not used in this one, as it seems it will not be right now. It would be interesting, but I think it would be best if the Houseless were included in a game in Rohan, or even Gondor. The Houseless are just something that kind of must be the center of the story, so...we sort of started planning another story in the planning of this RPG. A pretty nutty story, in a fun way, if you know what I mean.

You know, I do feel stupid now completely getting rid of the Houseless after all that, but I believe it is the only way.

That's all the thoughts I can type for the moment.

Now it's your turn.

-Durelin

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

How about this for the 'inside information' gained by the joint Mirkwood Scouts/Lorien Envoys:

This army has a whole phalanx of the 'new and improved' trolls bred by Sauron that can stand daylight (this much is learned from the freed envoy -- "that sounds terrible, but even though they are tough, one group of trolls alone won't make the difference. . .hmmmm. . .they must be up to something: we should follow them. . .")

As they follow they realise that the orc army is heading for a point along the shore of the Anduin that is uncrossable -- but when they get there (horrors!) they see that the trolls aren't for fighting but for engineering: they are able to construct a floating/pontoon bridge that gets the army across (also with the help of the more sophisticated -- than the orcs at least -- Easterlings).

"Oh no! This army is headed for Lorien from a direction they will never be expecting! We must get across the River -- but how? -- and get ahead of that army -- but how? -- and warn Celeborn!"

As to the Envoy -- how about they aren't heading to Thraduil at all, but to the Woodmen (maybe even Beorn)? They are a lot closer than the Mirkwood kingdom. This envoy then is captured by the easterlings (who are accompanied by a smaller group of orcs, who want to kill them on the spot -- hey, plot stuff there as the Easterlings and orcs argue).

[Durelin]

I really like that idea. It adds an interesting aspect to the army of Dol Guldur, and it explains how the army would cross the Anduin to attack in a place the elves would not expect. That fleshes out the last bullet on my list.

but even though they are tough, one group of trolls alone won't make the difference

Actually, the fact that a group of trolls would make a difference would speed the scout troop on to try and reach Lorien ahead of the army.

Obviously, the scout troop would cease to follow the army after they learned their plans, and take a more straight route to Lorien. So, the envoy must be captured before the army starts making their way in a loop around.

I like the idea about the Woodmen. It is likely that Lorien understands that Mirkwood is in the same position as they are, if not worse. But, the fact that they are sending out an envoy: does that mean they know already that an army is marching from Dol Guldur? Or is this in response to a previous attack that did great damage?

I believe the latter is more convincing, but...it emphasizes the fact that Lorien is weak. And so it is going to take a lot of speed, skill, and luck for them to use the knowledge of the army's 'surprise attack' to their advantage'. But, I think that will add to the story, actually. The desperation of the elves of both Lorien and Mirkwood will be much more dramatically expressed. And I have always loved a story where good overcomes the odds!

If we wish to make it more 'realistic', and not allow the elves to just overcome all odds and defeat the orcs, we can have the destruction of the Ring drive the orcs away after the elves hold them for a time, perhaps drawing back closer and closer to the forest itself, since I expect the plan will be to meet the army at or as close to the Anduin as is possible.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Problem with waiting for the destruction of the Ring is that according to the appendices the last attack on Lorien was before 25th March (I can't remember the exact date and I'm too lazy to look it up now).

But something new (oh dear ) has occured to me. Rather than it being a whole army attacking Lorien that our envoy/scouting party runs across, it could be a large raiding party composed of trolls (for getting across the River), Easterlings, and really tough orcs. They're going in a secret direction (across the River) and their plan is to go around the big battle between the Lorien army and the big orc army (the third and final wave recorded in LotR).

So our job is now to get ahead of the raiding party and hold them off as long as we can until we get re-enforcements. Possible twist: no reenforcments available: hold them off ourselves!!

The purpose of the raiding party??? The first two attempts to take Lorien have failed because the Lorien Elves are sustained by the power of Nenya. Sauron's idea? Send a third army against Lorien, the sole purpose of which is to draw off the border guards in a big battle to hold off the orcs; also, to distract the attention of Galadriel and Celebrimbor from the REAL threat, which is the super-tough band of 'commado' orcs-trolls-easterlings that our Lorien envoy/Mirkwood scouting party finds. The commando mission is a suicide attack on Caras Galathon itself to *gasp* kill Galadriel!!!

This might also explain the slaughtered border patrols found by the envoys at the beginning -- patrols of orcs from Dol Guldur have wiped out the border defenses in a very narrow stretch where the commando force will invade Lothlorien in a few days. When these orcs stumble on the envoy, they are afraid that their plan has been discovered so they take the envoy prisoner to return them to Dol Guldur where they can be questioned.

This will allow our Elves to follow and interact with the orcs/easterlings/trolls throughout the adventure -- which will allow all the groups in play to be characters we write (what about the trolls? anyone ever played a troll?)

[Amanaduial the archer]

Once again, I must apologise - I have been following, of course, but haven't actively posted because there didn't seem much point unless I really had a good amount of time to put into it.

Anyway, a few thoughts...

- The Houseless - it does seem a pity to leave them entirely after all the planning which was getting quite exciting, but if you wish to leave them, well, alright. They were becoming the central plot and this maybe isn't what was required for this RPG - but hey, when we're done with this game, if anyone else wanted to continue along that line I don't think they would fall short of volunteers to play

1. remove the Houseless

2. have the orcs and easterlings take prisoner the envoy from Lorien to Mirkwood

3. have these hostages freed by the Mirkwood scouting party

4. Lorien Elves hold out until Thranduil can get there.

I like this plan, actually, very much.

The purpose of the raiding party??? The first two attempts to take Lorien have failed because the Lorien Elves are sustained by the power of Nenya. Sauron's idea? Send a third army against Lorien, the sole purpose of which is to draw off the border guards in a big battle to hold off the orcs; also, to distract the attention of Galadriel and Celebrimbor from the REAL threat, which is the super-tough band of 'commado' orcs-trolls-easterlings that our Lorien envoy/Mirkwood scouting party finds. The commando mission is a suicide attack on Caras Galathon itself to *gasp* kill Galadriel!!!

Maybe 'commando' isn't the word that might be used in Tolkien, but I think this idea could be nicely worked on. Sauron has realised that to get into the wood sucessfully he is going to need a little more than one attack based on brute strength, especially as he has used mainly just orcs before. He is going to need something more special and some sort of troops that can work from more than simple orders, as these aren't going to take the elves in, as has been proved from the previous failed attempts to break into Lorien. He also knows, obviously, that the power of Nenya is 'sustaining' the elves, and is getting irritated by their defiance; his plan is maybe not to take down Galadriel, although it is of course a plus - the elf is one of the oldest still in Middle Earth, and knows too much about Sauron's ways; to eliminate her would be excellent for him because of this and also because all the elves, not just those of Lorien, look up to her. If she was killed, it would lower moral considerably, and would weaken the elves' confidence in themselves, making them more vulnerable. His plan might be simply to destroy Nenya.

The easterlings are more intelligent than the orcs, who rely on brute strength, and are able to use initiative, something thatwhich is why they have been drafted in, along with some of the stronger and fiercer uruk-hai (maybe?) - this could understandably bring about quite a bit of resentment from the orcs at the insinuation that they are not good enough, which could make for interesting playing, obviously. The mission (as Fordim said) will probably be a suicide one...but the easterlings and orcs carrying it out don't necessarily need to know this when they go in *evil*

Imagine, the outside patrols have been distracted and are occupied by the bulk of the force that was sent ahead for that very purpose, and a smaller group can then break through the skeleton guard which has been left on the boundaries with the intent of getting to Nenya and destroying it (or that's the theory - to add yet another twist, maybe a few of the more intelligent easterlings have worked out that with the help of the ring to their own devices, they could get more out of this war than bargained for - just a thought). But they hadn't bargained for the elves who have remained deeper within the wood, guarding the Lord and Lady - but there are not many of them. When others on the boundaries hear the sounds of battle starting up from within the forest, they call to the elves already fighting the bulk force of baddies, and all who can be spared rush back in to the aid of the Lord and Lady, hemming in the easterlings and orcs, who may come to the sudden realisation that they have been tricked, at which point some of them may attempt to hot-foot it out and, pretty inevitably, be slaughtered in the process. But there are a fair number of baddies there already, even without the deserters, and things do not look good for the elves and the ring Nenya...

Meanwhile, the other elves are rushing back to Lorien as fast as possible against all odds - but will they get there in time?! (Tune in for another episode of 'Bloodstained Elanor' to find out.. *cue theme music*)

What do you think?

[Arvedui III]

Yeah, in the face of such monstrous posts, all I've been able to do is just follow it. Sorry about that. Anyways, I'll try and add what I can.

I agree with Aman on the houseless. It makes more sense, much as it pains me to see the idea go. I have a question though.

...the other elves are rushing back to Lorien

Forgive my stupidity, but what other elves? The scouting party? The elves fighting the 3rd wave of orcs? The envoy and the Mirkwood patrol? Are we abandoning the scouting party and envoy idea all together? I'm just a little confused.

I like the idea of Orcs and Easterlings not getting on, and the attack on Galadriel and Nenya, though. Sounds like slightly more simple (simple, ha) plan.

Tune in for another episode of 'Bloodstained Elanor' to find out.. *cue theme music*

*Shakes head and laughs* We should definitely have theme music.

[Amanaduial the archer]

I have a question though.
Forgive my stupidity, but what other elves? The scouting party? The elves fighting the 3rd wave of orcs? The envoy and the Mirkwood patrol? Are we abandoning the scouting party and envoy idea all together? I'm just a little confused.

I meant the envoy and the Mirkwood patrol when I said the 'other elves' - the ones referred to by Fordim in his last post. Would this work?

*Shakes head and laughs* We should definitely have theme music.

I shall get to work immediately, Arvedui...

[Roa_Aoife]

OKay, just got back from break. My, you have been busy . Alright, I'm really with Fordhim on this. Aman, I think the idea of the inner-guards is good, but that may add more complications than we can can deal with. That's all I have to contribute for now. You guys say everything for me...

We should definitely have theme music.

Can it be the theme to the Darkside of the Force?

[Arvedui III]

Soo....let me see if I've got the plot right.

Lorien has been assalted twice, and now sends out an envoy to Thranduil asking for aid. This envoy is captured by a party of Easterlings and orcs and is subsequently rescued by a scouting party from Mirkwood. Meanwhile, during the 3rd attack on Lorien, a elite party of Uruk-Hai and Easterlings are sent to kill Galadriel and destroy the defenses that Nenya provides. They must get past a very small force protecting the Lord and Lady of the Golden Wood, who are fighting vailently against the incursion of orcs and Easterlings. At this point, its a race against time for the combined party of Mirkwood and Lorien elves to get back to Caras Galadhon and stop the baddie elites from taking the Golden Wood and killing Galadriel.

Right?

Ohh, this sounds fun. And as to the theme music...The Empire March, huh? That might work. I'll give it all some thought.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Lorien has been assalted twice, and now sends out an envoy to Thranduil asking for aid. This envoy is captured by a party of Easterlings and orcs and is subsequently rescued by a scouting party from Mirkwood. Meanwhile, during the 3rd attack on Lorien, a elite party of Uruk-Hai and Easterlings are sent to kill Galadriel and destroy the defenses that Nenya provides. They must get past a very small force protecting the Lord and Lady of the Golden Wood, who are fighting vailently against the incursion of orcs and Easterlings. At this point, its a race against time for the combined party of Mirkwood and Lorien elves to get back to Caras Galadhon and stop the baddie elites from taking the Golden Wood and killing Galadriel

This is pretty much what I was after -- yes. But the envoy really should probably be to the Woodmen (Thranduil too far, and in too much trouble of his own). And there really should be trolls (again: anyone ever played a troll?).

I REALLY like Aman's ideas for the Easterlings and orcs sniping at one another during the attack.

My vote for the theme music would be the anthem from "Gladiator" -- not a great movie, but the music was to die for!

PS Welcome back to My Lady Roa! I shall be seeing you soon at the Inn.

PPS As to the Houseless, I am already planning my submission for a game based around them -- just as soon as I can ascend to the lofty heights of "Game Owner" in Rohan.

[Amanaduial the archer]

That plot sounds about right. Then are we agreed on this part of the plot?

(again: anyone ever played a troll?).

There is always a first, Fordim, there is always a first...I don't suppose it would be a particularly intellectually challenging part to play ...

My vote for the theme music would be the anthem from "Gladiator" -- not a great movie, but the music was to die for!

I disagree on the analysis of the film (so sad...I cried...), but yes, I was going to say that! Track three, 'The Battle'?

[Arvedui III]

Yes, yes, yes. It sounds great, trolls and all. Now we need to hash out characters and stuff.

(so sad...I cried...), but yes, I was going to say that! Track three, 'The Battle'?

I'm with you, Aman. Great movie, even greater score. The Battle would be good, maybe the Barbarian Horde, forgot what track that was. That, or something out of Children of Dune, mayhap.

[Amanaduial the archer]

'Barbarian Horde' is number 10 - the last few minutes of it are the best, from about 7 minutes onwards. And we should have some of 'The Black Pearl' from Pirates of the Caribbean, and 'Barabosa is Hungry' maybe...

Ahem...

So, the plot so far is (just to check I have this right):

- Lorien has been assalted twice. Although both attempts have failed, Galadriel and Celeborn know that the power of Nenya which sustains them cannot keep forever, and so they send out an envoy to Thranduil asking for aid.
- Envoy is captured by a group of Easterlings and orcs.
- Envoy is rescued by a scouting party from Mirkwood. (should we add something else in here?)
- Meanwhile, during the 3rd attack on Lorien, a elite party of Uruk-Hai and Easterlings are sent to kill Galadriel and destroy the defenses that Nenya provides.
- They must get past a very small force protecting the Lord and Lady of the Golden Wood, who are fighting vailently against the incursion of orcs and Easterlings.
- At this point, its a race against time for the combined party of Mirkwood and Lorien elves to get back to Caras Galadhon and stop the baddie elites from taking the Golden Wood and killing Galadriel.


Right?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Aman -- I still think that the envoy should be to the Woodmen rather than Thranduil, but this is unimportant to the plot

The only major thing I would like to change from this excellent summary is the

very small force protecting the Lord and Lady of the Golden Wood, who are fighting vailently against the incursion of orcs and Easterlings

I would think it much more dramatic if there were NOBODY standing between the elite force and Galadriel, making it absolutely imperative for our party to get back to Lorien to save the day. The border guard who would have been protecting Caras Galadhon was wiped out by advance parties of orcs (the same ones who capture the envoy).

[Roa_Aoife]

Again, I'm with Fordhim on this one. The extra guards not only add further, adnperhaps too much, complexity, they also remove some of the urgency from the story. Already we have four groups:

• Lorien Envoy
• Mirkwood scouting party
• Main force of badies
• Elite Easterlings and Orcs

If you really desire a fifth point of view, surely ther are some non-warriors in Lorien. We could have brief looks from them about the waiting they must endure. They could also give a look at the mou nting tension in Lorien, as well as shock when the surprise force shows up.

[Amanaduial the archer]

It would add urgency, yes - but it would also probably be a little unrealistic. Think of any ruler - they wouldn't be left completely alone without and backup help, especially in a time of war. Even if it wasn't a very big force around Galadriel and Celeborn, there would still have to be some sort of force. This means it is still imperative that the envoy plus their help get back with the utmost haste, but it also means that the Lord and Lady will not be cut down as soon as the easterlings and orcs enter the palace.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Point taken -- but things might get out of control if we have too many groups being played. I would recommend that we keep it to three:

1. Lorien envoy
2. Mirkwood scouts
3. Orcs and Easterlings (a smaller band of these -- the played orcs and Easterlings -- captures the envoy, goes back toward Mirkwood, is attacked by Mirkwood scouts who free the envoy; all the "player" orcs and Easterlings then get away and link up with a larger force of NPC orcs, Easterlings and trolls to assault Lorien).

One more point (any urge to throttle me yet?) -- the elite force is launching a surprise attack, so the envoy/scouts have to get back to defeat them as nobody will know they're coming! When we get back to Lorien we could send for re-enforcements to the 'personal guard' at Caras Galadhon (you are utterly correct Aman, there would have to be some there!) and they could come to our rescue -- but again, these would probably be NPC, as for most of the game, these characters would be waiting around to get called to the front.

Is it time yet to work out characters, etc???

[Arvedui III]

Once Durelin gives the ok, I think so, Fordim.

I agree about the too-many groups. Keep it simple, keep it sane. We have the Lorien Envoy, the Mirkwood scouting party, the various baddies, plus secondaries, maybe the personal guard or Woodsmen or something. That should be enough.

I agree about Barbarian Horde, last three minutes are awesome. Well, the whole soundtrack is, really. So...so far we have Star War, Galadiator and Pirates of the Carribean? Might as well throw in Mask of Zorro for good measure.

[Roa_Aoife]

Once Upon a time in Mexico had better music than the Mask of Zorro. Bad movie- good music. So Durelin, ready for charchters, yet? Or should we summarize first?

[piosenniel]

Bringing this forward - perhaps you can begin filling in some of the needed information:

This is the form that will be submitted once your planning is finished. All sections will need to be completed before the proposal can be reviewed by the Shire Moderators - Piosenniel and Child of the 7th Age.

Once your proposal is accepted for play, then I will open a Discussion thread for the game and you can take on the other players you need.

When the Characters Needed list is all filled, then the RPG will be opened as the owner requests.
_______________________________________________


At the end of your planning process - Please leave the completed form on the Planning Thread - don't send it to me by PM. It will be easier for me to work with it on the forum.

_______________________________________________

SHIRE GAME PROPOSAL FORM

Title:

Historical Background (This is necessary only for Games set in a time before The Lord of the Rings. It can be 2 to 3 sentences that give some basic facts about what is going on in that time period. This will help clarify the setting for the prospective players.)
__________________________________

Basic Storyline:

__________________________________

The purpose of the story is to:

This means we will know the story is over when:
__________________________________

Starting Location:

Likely destination:
__________________________________

Timeframes:

This game takes place in the ____Age at around year _______.

The storyline itself or plot covers _____ days, weeks, months.

This game requires a time commitment of _____ from me, the game owner and from the major players.
__________________________________

Characters needed: – be specific as to type (eg., Lothlorien Elves, not just Elves, if that’s what you need; or any other characters types from specific regions) and please indicate the number of each type you will need.

Please note for each character type needed: Race – number needed – and gender needed

Character types which would not belong:

__________________________________


Are there any writers you have invited to play on the game and are saving spots for them? If so, please list their names under Dedicated Characters for me.

They will need to submit their Character Descriptions Forms and First Posts to me before I will open the Discussion Thread:

Dedicated Characters:

Fordim Hedgethistle

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

Linnahiril Tinnufinwen

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

Roa_Aoife

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

GaladrieloftheOlden

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

Arvedui III

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

Amanaduial the Archer

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

Aylwen Dreamsong

CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST TO BE PLACED HERE

__________________________________



The game owner(Durelin + ?) will play ____ character(s).

OWNER CHARACTER DESCRIPTION AND FIRST POST FOR THE GAME TO BE PLACED HERE

__________________________________

USE THIS CHARACTER DESCRIPTION FORM TO PRESENT YOUR CHARACTER:

NAME:

AGE:

RACE:

GENDER:

WEAPONS (No magical, super-hero, mithril weapons. Just good solid Middle-earth weapons and armor only that is appropriate to the race of the character and the time period.):

APPEARANCE:

PERSONALITY/STRENGTHS/WEAKNESSES: (No half-Elven characters. No mixed-type characters. No super-heroes. No assassins. No one all powerful, martial arts proficient, or having any magical traits. Just regular characters with normal abilities for their races only):

HISTORY:

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Other information of special interest that you would like to include:

Do you want first posts for the game when the players submit their characters on the discussion thread? - YES/NO

Please note that this will mean NO character descriptions will be accepted without First Posts accompanying them. All character descriptions posted without the required First Post will be sent back to their writers.

[Durelin]

Outlined Summary Thus Far:

Mirkwood scouts (whether by orders from Thranduil or not) have been keeping Dol Guldur under surveillance. They detect movement at Dol Guldur, and observes an army as it marches toward Lorien. They also observe a smaller force making its way in a loop to reach the forest on the northern/southern side. (Either the ‘Sauron special forces’ party remains with the army for a time and then breaks off, or they head off on their own right away.)

At this point a decision must be made: to report back what they have seen, to continue following the army, or to follow the smaller party. The scouting party from Mirkwood decides to follow the smaller party, as it is much more stealthily making its way to Lorien. Also, the fact that it contains easterlings and uruk-hai (and the main force does not?) could be seen as something that is due attention.

-Of course, the Mirkwood elves could receive information from the rescued envoy we talked about earlier. See ‘Concerning the envoy and its rescue’ below.-

The scout party moves with the greatest possible speed to Lorien, to reach the forest ahead of the ‘Sauron special forces’. They warn of this special, unforeseen attack. Most likely after studying the evil party’s movements for a time, they could guess approximately where they were headed. So the troops holding Lorien are prepared to resist both attacks. (It could be that by the time the scout troop reaches Lorien, the main force marching from Dol Guldur has reached, or is about to reach, the line of battle, as they would be marching in a much straighter route.)

From here, the battle could work out in many ways:

The scout troop from Mirkwood and soldiers that could be spared from Lorien’s lines successfully fend off the ‘Sauron special forces’ party, then:

The survivors of this skirmish could then make their way around to attack the attacking army of Dol Guldur from behind, and using the cover of the trees, scatter them. (Think ‘The Patriot’… )

Or, the soldiers of Lorien could fend off the main force, for as they continue to fight, and there is not sign that the separate evil party was successful in their mission, morale wanes until they flee or are driven back.

Concerning the envoy and its rescue:

The ‘Sauron special forces’ party remains with the army for a time. The Mirkwood scout party follows the army. The army finds the envoy and captures them. Then what happens to them? If they are taken back to Dol Guldur, the Mirkwood scout party cannot follow if they are to reach Lorien in time to either warn of the separate evil party, or to come to the rescue.

Concerning trolls:

I know you love your trolls Fordim, but now that everyone has come to like this story, the trolls do not work out as well. Of course, if the scout party moves fast enough, they could reach Lorien in time to warn the defenders of the odd movements of both the main forces (the main force to the north – the ‘special forces’ to the south – with trolls to set up the pontoon bridge as you said) and the ‘special forces’. Again, though, this completely rules out the possibility of the envoy, as far as I can see. Well, maybe that’s not too far…

To bring all the summary, the ‘concerning envoy’ and ‘concerning trolls’ together:

If we do have the ‘special forces’ loop rather widely to the south to surprise attack the center of Lorien, and have the main force looping to the north and setting up the pontoon bridge using the trolls, I believe the delays these loops and river crossings will cause will give the scout party enough time to high tail it back to Lorien after rescuing the envoy, in time to either warn or come to the rescue of the defenders.

~

who may come to the sudden realisation that they have been tricked, at which point some of them may attempt to hot-foot it out and, pretty inevitably, be slaughtered in the process.

I don’t understand what you mean by that, Aman. They most likely were not aware that this would be pretty much a suicide mission (though most likely many of them would still volunteer for it!), but I don’t understand why this realization would cause them to run. Sauron (or whoever is ultimately leading this army) would not have bothered to send the party if there was no chance of success. It seems that when the easterlings and orcs come to believe they have been tricked that the whole plan was to get rid of them. Though they could believe that they had been tricked, and then give up.

Okay, now I’m blathering.

~

The Player Groups (expanded from Roa’s nifty list):

• Mirkwood scouts (open story)
• Lorien envoy (to Woodmen? - captured)
• Main force of Dol Guldur
• ‘Special forces’ party of Dol Guldur
• Defenders of Lorien: Front lines & Elite Guard/Bodyguard(minor roles/NPCs)

~

Time Periods (for a basic idea of the order of things):

Mikwood scout party follows army for (days 1 – 3?)
Envoy captured – a party splits off to take captives back to Dol Guldur (days 3 – 4)
Envoy rescued – Plans of evil forces made clear (day 4 or 5?)
Race back to Lorien (days 4/5 – 8/9?)
Defenders warned/inner defenders rescued from surprise attack (day 9 or 10)
Lorien front lines hold off main force (day 9 or 10)
Enemy held – Retreat (day 11)

How does that sound?

~

We’re almost ready to being working on characters…promise. And I’m sorry for my lack of presence, but I’ve been extremely busy. I have been checking up on the thread, but have not had the chance to post until today. Unfortunately, it always works out that no one is able to post when I am able to post…and then I am not able to post when everyone else is able to post…If you follow me.

~

I dearly hope that much of this post made sense. My life is pretty crazy right now (crazy in a good way, but crazy!), and I also have a great deal of trouble collecting my thoughts. Most likely some of the things present in this post are irrelevant, but that is just an example of my way of thinking. I hope you can sift through all this rather random contemplating for the actual important information.

~

A Pending RPG Proposal:

Title: Bloodstained Elanor/Elanor Agarwaen

Historical Background: TA 3019, February - March

Lorien is attacked three times by forces from Dol Guldur, located in southern Mirkwood. Thanks to the combination of their valor of arms and the protection of Nenya, the assailants are held back.

Mirkwood is also attacked several times, and they struggle to hold back the evil. So Lorien cannot call upon Thranduil for aid, and Thranduil cannot call upon them. Eventually the fight reaches the inner reaches of the forest of Mirkwood.

With destruction of Sauron, Celeborn leads forces over the Anduin and destroys Dol Guldur, and Galadriel throws down its walls.

On the day of the new year, Celeborn and Thranduil meet in Mirkwood. Mirkwood is renamed Eryn Lasgalen, 'The Forest of Greenleaves'. Thranduil keeps northern Mirkwood, and Celeborn receives southern Mirkwood and names it East Lorien, and the forest is renewed.

This story tells of one of these onslaughts against Lorien from Dol Guldur.
__________________________________

Basic Storyline: An army marches toward Lorien from Dol Guldur, in yet another attempt to overcome one of the few remaining fortresses of good. This time Sauron has plans of overthrowing the power of Nenya, and thus bringing the strength and morale of Lorien to fail. An envoy has been sent to the Woodmen/elves of Mirkwood to seek aid in the defense of the forest.

In Mirkwood, a scouting party that has been keeping Dol Guldur under surveillance follows the movements of the army as it approaches Lorien, hoping to aid their brethren against the persistent evil. Whatever the outcome, a battle will rage beneath the great boughs of the mallorn, and blood will stain the beautiful leaves of the mallorn.
__________________________________

The purpose of the story is to: Gain information needed to aid in the defeat of the army of Dol Guldur and reach Lorien in time. Drive back the orcs from Lorien.

This means we will know the story is over when: The army of Dol Guldur retreats.
__________________________________

Starting Location: Mirkwood(?)

Likely destination: Lorien
__________________________________

Timeframes:

This game takes place in the Third Age at around year 3019.

The storyline itself or plot covers 11(?) days, weeks, months.

This game requires a time commitment of 3 months(?) from me, the game owner and from the major players.
__________________________________

Characters needed:

_#_ Elves:

• Soldiers
• Scouts
• Envoy members
• Female?
• Of Mirkwood
• Of Lorien

_#_ Orcs:

• Elite Orcs (of some kind)
• Uruk-hai
• Grunts(?)

_#_ Easterlings:

• Elite
• Leader of ‘special forces’ party?
• Male and Female??

[Amanaduial the archer]

Wouldn't Lorien be the starting place, or just setting out from Lorien?

[Durelin]

It all depends on whether we want to start out with the envoy or the scouting party: the former would be setting out from Lorien, the latter from Mirkwood, following the army. Both groups will be pretty main major parts of the story, but I believe we must decide which will be the set main characters.

Just another tidbit that needs to be worked out...and that can stimulate another page of discussion.

That one line post was very much a blessing, Aman!

Fun, fun, as always!

-Durelin

[Arvedui III]

Well, we could have the Mirkwood scouts start off the story. But yeah, I'm with Aman. Shouldn't it be Lorien?

As to everything else, it looks great. Now come the days of tweeking the story.

Concerning characters:
The only groups I've been able to get my head around are the baddies. Until we hash for sure the envoy and scouts and stuff I'm gonna leave the elves alone.

I think we should despense with the female easterlings, just to make it easier and avoid Shieldmadien baddies (though that would be kinda funny).

The elite orcs could be Uruk-Hai captains, and the other orcs just regular ones. As to Grunts...they would be pretty cool, but I can't understand why a 'Sauron's Special Forces Unit' would bring them along, save maybe as armor-bearers or something.

And the trolls, sorry Fordim, but I agree with Durelin. If we have them at all they should really be NPCs. (But hey, there's something you can put into your Houseless RPG thingy)

As to the numbers: This is gonna be a big RPG. For the baddies, well, here's what I think.

2 Captains ( 1 Orc and 1 Easterling)
2 Easterling Warriors
2 Special Unit Orcs
2 Regular Orcs (Maybe one of them could be a Grunt?)

Once Upon a time in Mexico had better music than the Mask of Zorro

Really? I never went to see that. I've lost all my faith in Robert Rodriguez since those Spy Kids movies. *sighs*

[Roa_Aoife]

The starting point could be either one, really, with out changing the story too much. Is it possible to have two starting points? Like have the first post cut between two points of view?
As far as charchters go, I don't have much to say on the baddies, but the Envoy should have an ambassador (or two), two guards, and a membor of the honorary escort (agian- maybe two.) The Mirk wood party should have at least two points of view, it not more, and they would of course all be scouts.

Arvedui III, do you mean Antonio Banderaz? Any way it's a bad movie, but the music was good. All Mariachi band stuff.

[Amanaduial the archer]

Roa - Arvedui was probably actually referring to Robert Rodriguez, the director.

I will post more later, sorry about this short post...

[Durelin]

Arvedui - I agree that 'grunts' would not be a part of the 'special forces', but we also have a large army heading towards Lorien less steathily, which will be mainly made up of grunts. Most likely we should have very small parts roleplayed among this army, just so the movements of the army are followed, and why the army flees at the end can be explained.

RoA - Actually, if we keep both the envoy and the scout party small, both groups could be roleplayed as 'main' parts. We could, we would be able to, but do we want to? Would having so many 'main' characters take away from the story?

The only problem I can see with starting in Lorien is that the scout party has, in my mind, the most important part. They come to the rescue twice, they follow the army, they are the ones that see pretty much all that is going on with this attack...I believe that, how we set up the story, we're going to have to focus on the Mirkwood scout party. Still, the focus is largely on Lorien because the scout party is focusing on Lorien.

Of course, that doesn't mean we must open the RPG in Mirkwood. The envoy is going to set out before the scout party, so we can begin with after their departure, and then move on to the scout party.

Sorry if much of that was obvious information, but, again, I start at a certain point in thinking, and then must type everything in between to reach my desired end.

As Aman said, I'll be back to post more.