Who is Queen Berúthiel? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Esgallhugwen · 10-09-2003, 09:43 AM

She was mentioned by Aragorn (who was known as Strider at the time) He made a comment to one of the hobbits that they had keener sight than one of her cats. Sorry I can't remember where in the book it is exactly but it is deffinetly in FOTR.

Oh and another question. What does Vanimelda mean? I looked it up in my copy of the Tolkien companion, and it said Vanimelda was the 3rd Queen and 16th ruler of Númenor. The full phrase is "Arwen vanimelda namarië!" and it is spoken by Aragorn at the end of Ch.6 Lothlorien, Book Two, FOTR. I know who Arwen is (well duh!) and what Namarië means, but I'm unsure about Vanimelda.

Anyone's help would be greatly appreciated to feed my curiosity. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: Esgallhugwen ]

Finwe · 10-09-2003, 10:47 AM

Queen Beruthiel was one of the queens of Gondor, and was hated by the general populace because she would constantly send her "host" of cats to spy on those that she didn't like. She was also a rather twisted lady who didn't like growing things, and her husband (the King of Gondor, obviously, I forget his name) hated her so much that he eventually put her and her cats on a ship and sent them away. The last that anyone saw of that ship was it sailing past Umbar, under a crescent moon, with a cat at the prow.

"Vanimelda" is a Quenya word meaning "beautiful beloved." It was an affectionate form of address like "honey" or "sweetie" except much more classy. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
The Queen of Numenor that you're thinking about is Vanimeldë (whose name also meant the same thing).

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 10-09-2003, 02:02 PM

Christopher Tolkien puts it this way:

Quote:

[Berúthiel] was the nefarious, solitary and loveless wife of Tarannon, twelfth king of Gondor (Third Age 830-913) and first of the 'Ship Kings', who took the crown in the name of Falastur 'Lord of the Coasts', and was the first childless king... Berúthiel lived in the King's House in Osgiliath, hating the sounds and smells of the sea and the house that Tarannon built below Pelargir 'upon arches whose feet stood deep in the wide waters of Eithir Anduin'; she hated all making, all colours and elaborate adornment, wearing only black and silver and living in bare chambers, and the gardens of the house in Osgiliath were filled with tormented sculptures beneath cypresses and yews. She had nine black cats and one white, her slaves, with whom she conversed, or read their memories, setting them to discover all the dark secrets of Gondor, so that she knew those things 'that men most wish to keep hidden', setting the white cat to spy upon the black, and tormenting them. No man in Gondor dared touch them; all were afraid of them, and cursed when they saw them pass.

Berúthiel's name was erased from the Book of the Kings, and Tarannon set her adrift with her cats "before a north wind". The younger Tolkien continues: "The ship was last seen flying past Umbar under a sickle moon, with a cat at the masthead and another as a figure-head on the prow."

You can find this description in Unfinished Tales, in the seventh note to the chapter entitled The Istari.

Gilbo · 10-09-2003, 10:11 PM

Nine black cats,held as slaves, and used as spies to learn the secrets of men's hearts. Sound like any one else we know? Is there a signifigance to the number nine? MaybeJRRT was a numerologist as well. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Gwaihir the Windlord · 10-10-2003, 04:24 AM

He was certainly seems to dislike cats, or gives that impression at least. What about Tavildo?

Gilbo · 10-10-2003, 10:05 AM

Begging the Sahib's pardon. This one apologizes for his ignorance, but who, or what, is Tavildo? Blessings upon the Sahib for his answer. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Esgallhugwen · 10-10-2003, 10:25 AM

Well thank you all very much, this had been a great learning experience. And yes what is with the number 9?? Hmm interesting I must say. wow that Queen sounds awfully harsh how could he have ever married her? I would have put her on a ship as soon as I saw her. Unless it was one of those arranged things. I don't have any books like the Unfinished Tales, etc. or the History of Middle-Earth, but I am desperatly trying to get money to get them. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Which isn't working out so well I might add. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ October 10, 2003: Message edited by: Esgallhugwen ]

Findegil · 10-10-2003, 10:31 AM

I think it was Tevildo, but that doesn't matter. He play a rolle in The Book of Lost Tales and was later completly erased (or beter replaced). Tevildo was the evil Lord of the cats and had his home in the Iron Mountians. It was a house that was build with teraces facing south on which the cats could lie in the sun. His servance wers of big sice (I imaging them as big as Lions or Tigers). When Beren tried for the first time to get a Silmarill he was captured and put as a slave into the kitchen of Tevildo. (Felagund and his role in the story of Beren and Luthein was not jet invented by Tolkien.) Luthien rescued Beren from Tevildo with the help of Huan. So in the rolle he played in The Tale of Tinuviel Tevildo was the forruner of Sauron. But they had no other connection I am aware of.

Respectfully
Findegil

Gwaihir the Windlord · 10-11-2003, 02:51 AM

Thanks, I probably should have elaborated.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 10-11-2003, 06:15 AM

Although it's entirely possible that there is some deeper significance in the number of Berúthiel's cats, it should be noted that she had ten cats, not nine; and that ten is a number that tends to spring to mind quite naturally without any deeper meaning being intended. As for there being nine black cats, Tolkien probably wrote Berúthiel's story at about the same time as the appendices to The Lord of the Rings, when the idea of nine black servants was strong in his mind. The only reference to numerals in his letters concerns the convenience of duodecimals (multiples of twelve) and some Elven numerals for them that he had invented.* I think that a numerologist would have had more to say about numbers than that. More tellingly, Shippey's literary biography J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century makes no reference to numerology. Perhaps there are some other hints elsewhere.

I noted Tolkien's apparent dislike of cats some time ago, and started a thread on the subject. Consider that a shameless plug.

*Letter #344 (23 November 1972)

Finwe · 10-11-2003, 06:44 AM

Perhaps Tolkien's apparent dislike for cats had to do with some of the messages that he wanted to put across to his reader. Especially with the "Fellowship" theme, he wanted to tell the reader that the only way to "save the world" was to unite all people, no matter what their race/creed/religion. Cats are very independent spirits, and are almost never found in "packs." That would have defeated the purpose of putting in all those "group" themes. On the other hand, as is apparent in his lavish praise of Huan, Tolkien seemed to love dogs, because they were "group" creatures.

Any thoughts?

Esgallhugwen · 10-14-2003, 09:43 AM

See I had heard rumours of Queen Berúthiel, having cats and I think there was even an RPG about it on the forum, though I never joined that one because I knew very little about her and her cats. But Beren being captured by cats! That's kind of funny actually, I mean I'm sure the cats were probably huge but still. I can imagine my brother's cat Bastet doing that she's an evil genious [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] plotting to take over the world of the humans, than again all cats are more than likely like that [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

And on Finwe's theory: that's very intersting, I've noticed that too now that I've come to know about how he seems to feel about cats from you guys and your abundance of info on the subject
must get those books
Dogs have also been known for being more loyal creatures where as cats will do what they please without question.

[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: Esgallhugwen ]

10-09-2003, 09:43 AM	#1
Esgallhugwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Where the Moon cries against the snow Posts: 526	Who is Queen Berúthiel? She was mentioned by Aragorn (who was known as Strider at the time) He made a comment to one of the hobbits that they had keener sight than one of her cats. Sorry I can't remember where in the book it is exactly but it is deffinetly in FOTR. Oh and another question. What does Vanimelda mean? I looked it up in my copy of the Tolkien companion, and it said Vanimelda was the 3rd Queen and 16th ruler of Númenor. The full phrase is "Arwen vanimelda namarië!" and it is spoken by Aragorn at the end of Ch.6 Lothlorien, Book Two, FOTR. I know who Arwen is (well duh!) and what Namarië means, but I'm unsure about Vanimelda. Anyone's help would be greatly appreciated to feed my curiosity. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: Esgallhugwen ] __________________ "...for the sin of the idolater is not that he worships stone, but that he worships one stone over others. -8:9:4 The Witness of Fane"

10-09-2003, 10:47 AM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Queen Beruthiel was one of the queens of Gondor, and was hated by the general populace because she would constantly send her "host" of cats to spy on those that she didn't like. She was also a rather twisted lady who didn't like growing things, and her husband (the King of Gondor, obviously, I forget his name) hated her so much that he eventually put her and her cats on a ship and sent them away. The last that anyone saw of that ship was it sailing past Umbar, under a crescent moon, with a cat at the prow. "Vanimelda" is a Quenya word meaning "beautiful beloved." It was an affectionate form of address like "honey" or "sweetie" except much more classy. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] The Queen of Numenor that you're thinking about is Vanimeldë (whose name also meant the same thing). __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

10-10-2003, 10:25 AM	#7
Esgallhugwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Where the Moon cries against the snow Posts: 526	Well thank you all very much, this had been a great learning experience. And yes what is with the number 9?? Hmm interesting I must say. wow that Queen sounds awfully harsh how could he have ever married her? I would have put her on a ship as soon as I saw her. Unless it was one of those arranged things. I don't have any books like the Unfinished Tales, etc. or the History of Middle-Earth, but I am desperatly trying to get money to get them. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Which isn't working out so well I might add. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [ October 10, 2003: Message edited by: Esgallhugwen ] __________________ "...for the sin of the idolater is not that he worships stone, but that he worships one stone over others. -8:9:4 The Witness of Fane"

10-11-2003, 06:15 AM	#10
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,177	Although it's entirely possible that there is some deeper significance in the number of Berúthiel's cats, it should be noted that she had ten cats, not nine; and that ten is a number that tends to spring to mind quite naturally without any deeper meaning being intended. As for there being nine black cats, Tolkien probably wrote Berúthiel's story at about the same time as the appendices to The Lord of the Rings, when the idea of nine black servants was strong in his mind. The only reference to numerals in his letters concerns the convenience of duodecimals (multiples of twelve) and some Elven numerals for them that he had invented.* I think that a numerologist would have had more to say about numbers than that. More tellingly, Shippey's literary biography J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century makes no reference to numerology. Perhaps there are some other hints elsewhere. I noted Tolkien's apparent dislike of cats some time ago, and started a thread on the subject. Consider that a shameless plug. Letter #344 (23 November 1972) __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne? Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 06-13-2004 at 02:22 PM.*

10-11-2003, 06:44 AM	#11
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Perhaps Tolkien's apparent dislike for cats had to do with some of the messages that he wanted to put across to his reader. Especially with the "Fellowship" theme, he wanted to tell the reader that the only way to "save the world" was to unite all people, no matter what their race/creed/religion. Cats are very independent spirits, and are almost never found in "packs." That would have defeated the purpose of putting in all those "group" themes. On the other hand, as is apparent in his lavish praise of Huan, Tolkien seemed to love dogs, because they were "group" creatures. Any thoughts? __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

10-09-2003, 10:11 PM	#4
Gilbo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: maryland Posts: 34	Nine black cats,held as slaves, and used as spies to learn the secrets of men's hearts. Sound like any one else we know? Is there a signifigance to the number nine? MaybeJRRT was a numerologist as well. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

10-10-2003, 04:24 AM	#5
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	He was certainly seems to dislike cats, or gives that impression at least. What about Tavildo?

10-10-2003, 10:05 AM	#6
Gilbo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: maryland Posts: 34	Begging the Sahib's pardon. This one apologizes for his ignorance, but who, or what, is Tavildo? Blessings upon the Sahib for his answer. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

10-10-2003, 10:31 AM	#8
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	I think it was Tevildo, but that doesn't matter. He play a rolle in The Book of Lost Tales and was later completly erased (or beter replaced). Tevildo was the evil Lord of the cats and had his home in the Iron Mountians. It was a house that was build with teraces facing south on which the cats could lie in the sun. His servance wers of big sice (I imaging them as big as Lions or Tigers). When Beren tried for the first time to get a Silmarill he was captured and put as a slave into the kitchen of Tevildo. (Felagund and his role in the story of Beren and Luthein was not jet invented by Tolkien.) Luthien rescued Beren from Tevildo with the help of Huan. So in the rolle he played in The Tale of Tinuviel Tevildo was the forruner of Sauron. But they had no other connection I am aware of. Respectfully Findegil

10-11-2003, 02:51 AM	#9
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	Thanks, I probably should have elaborated.

10-14-2003, 09:43 AM	#12
Esgallhugwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Where the Moon cries against the snow Posts: 526	See I had heard rumours of Queen Berúthiel, having cats and I think there was even an RPG about it on the forum, though I never joined that one because I knew very little about her and her cats. But Beren being captured by cats! That's kind of funny actually, I mean I'm sure the cats were probably huge but still. I can imagine my brother's cat Bastet doing that she's an evil genious [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] plotting to take over the world of the humans, than again all cats are more than likely like that [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] And on Finwe's theory: that's very intersting, I've noticed that too now that I've come to know about how he seems to feel about cats from you guys and your abundance of info on the subject must get those books Dogs have also been known for being more loyal creatures where as cats will do what they please without question. [ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: Esgallhugwen ] __________________ "...for the sin of the idolater is not that he worships stone, but that he worships one stone over others. -8:9:4 The Witness of Fane"