The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-25-2004, 08:13 PM   #1
The Perky Ent
Maniacal Mage
 
The Perky Ent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side!
Posts: 3,332
The Perky Ent has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to The Perky Ent
Silmaril Balrog Sprinters?

A pondering question: When Ungoliant started strangling Melkor, and Morgoth sounded that loud screem and the Balrogs came from the ruined halls of Angband, how is it that the Balrogs could make it in time to save Melkor? I mean, Ungoliant became pretty darn big after devouring the treasures of Formenos, so it wouldn't be long before Melkor kicked the bucket! And seeing the speed of a Balrog in FOTR, how is it that they could come from Angband to Morgoth in enough time to save him? How long would it take Morgoth to die? I mean, surely longer than a man or elf, but Balrogs are slow. Unless they're balrog sprinters in the first age, ungoliant might have snapped Melkor's neck! Wouldn't that be a sight! Anyway, how is it that a Balrog can travel that fast?
__________________
'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

Last edited by The Perky Ent; 03-27-2004 at 08:03 AM.
The Perky Ent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2004, 08:15 PM   #2
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,752
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Wings!
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2004, 08:16 PM   #3
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,468
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
The Eye Sorry, it just has to be said ...

They flew.

And I don't see the most powerful of the Valar being killed by Ungoliant that quickly, however large she might have grown.

Edit: Darn you, Underhill, you beat me to it!
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 03-25-2004 at 08:20 PM.
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2004, 08:20 PM   #4
Silmiel of Imladris
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Silmiel of Imladris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing
Posts: 395
Silmiel of Imladris has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Silmiel of Imladris
Question

I thought I smelled the wings issue again. How many times are we going to bring this up?
__________________
Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me.

Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?
Silmiel of Imladris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2004, 08:22 PM   #5
The Perky Ent
Maniacal Mage
 
The Perky Ent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side!
Posts: 3,332
The Perky Ent has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to The Perky Ent
Silmaril

Yes, it's possible, but i've never understood the argument with Balrog wings! Do they work? Because i've always though they were like vestigial structures....that is if Balrog's evolve. I though they were small and couldn't carry the weight. And still, the Sil says
Quote:
and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to asunder the webs of Ungoliant
which indicates they might have flown, but you never can tell...
__________________
'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'
The Perky Ent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2004, 08:42 PM   #6
Keeper of Dol Guldur
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Keeper of Dol Guldur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
Keeper of Dol Guldur has just left Hobbiton.
Wings my foot

Wings or no, in those days the Balrogs weren't as apt to wear the forms of shadow and they were made of flame - but are still spirits and can do some amazing things. Flew probably just means they weren't putting feet on the ground, and since the Silm explicitly states that they came in a 'fiery tempest' (or something similar to that), then I'd say it was less an instance of them even being in a humanoid physical form. I try and imagine several streaks of fire blazing forth low over the ground, burning all in their way as the came, with shadows streaking out behind them (occasionally even twisting, writhing and barrel-rolling around eachother) like some sort of fire storm out of hell (again literally). A spirit of fire doesn't need to follow the laws of human physics.

Also, I was under the impression that it would mostly be Ungoliant's abdomen that swelled even fatter, and Melkor was a very, very strong being. He had spear, fist and black magic to keep her from sinking her teeth in, but he was pinned nonetheless. But if a being is capable of screaming so loud that his servants can hear him from hundreds of miles away, it's not that big of a stretch to think he could hold his own, and that the servants could get there fairly quickly (that being said, if the movie Sam could hold open Shelob's fangs, I think Melkor could).
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling
Keeper of Dol Guldur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2004, 08:47 PM   #7
Gorwingel
Beholder of the Mists
 
Gorwingel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now
Posts: 1,436
Gorwingel has just left Hobbiton.
I doubt that they would have flew. From what it says in the Sil it sounds like they ran with just very big strides, and maybe some sort of otherworldly power. But maybe we will have to just leave this to the imagination. Because of course, from what we have learned from our many, many, many other Balrog threads... Tolkien never exactly decided for sure what the Balrogs should be.
__________________
Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance
Gorwingel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2004, 09:40 PM   #8
Nilpaurion Felagund
Scion of The Faithful
 
Nilpaurion Felagund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,430
Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Pipe Wings!...?

Quote:
Then sudden Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than the Balrogs from Thangorodrim...

(The Silmarillion 18)
Now, I wouldn't compare the speed of those rushing rivers of flame to something slow, would I. Ergo, the Balrogs were swift. Very swift. Probably with momenta equal to that of...

Physics finals is over.

Yes. Sorry.

I think it was the movie Balrog that was depicted as slow. The movie was wrong - again...but that was not unexpected...

P.S. Yep, glad the Silm's back.
__________________
フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo)
The plot, cut, defeated.
I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
Nilpaurion Felagund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2004, 10:22 PM   #9
Eomer King of Rohan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Shield Movie correct or incorrect

Well being a New Zealander I have to stick up for the Movies. I think that the crampted space inside Moria(well for a Balrog anyway) would contribute to its relatively slow movement. Also I think Balrogs, being tortured maia spirits could change form into some tiny flame then reappear as a giant flaming beast somewhere. Or mabe Morgoth being the Evil dude that he is (I suppose he is the Vala(god) of evil) sent a fell wind to helb the Balrogs fly some sort of Hurricane to speed their progress.

I do agree with Silmiel of Imladris How many times must we go through the wings issue?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2004, 11:36 AM   #10
drigel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
drigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
drigel has just left Hobbiton.
It is a tired issue i agree. I think of it this issue in a relative way (like the world was created in 7 days). Since there was no specific time frame to reference against, who is to say that Morgoth didnt struggle for days, waiting for the Balrogs to rescue him? His cry for help could have lasted for days for that matter.

Thats the scene I had pictured anyways - no wings involved. Just those two locked in a deathgrip, staring at each other. Sleepless spirits of malice. Despite Morgoths fear, I dont think the spider could have done him in, but she could have done him a lot of hurt. What a scene that would have been!

So "flying" for Balrogs (IMO) was a swift gait - possibly horse speed.
drigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2004, 08:09 AM   #11
The Perky Ent
Maniacal Mage
 
The Perky Ent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side!
Posts: 3,332
The Perky Ent has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to The Perky Ent
Silmaril

Yes, I was thinking of the Balrog in Moria. Movie Version. But if a Balrog is fast, would they be like sprinters, running in track position ready to sprint? Yes they could fly, but i just don't see them running a great distance. So i'm with Eomer King of Rohan on that one because it would make more sence that they'd use black magic to teleport, rather than sprint across Middle Earth
__________________
'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'
The Perky Ent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2004, 08:38 PM   #12
Nilpaurion Felagund
Scion of The Faithful
 
Nilpaurion Felagund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,430
Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Pipe

Quote:
...and now swiftly [the Balrogs] arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

(The Silmarillion 9 - emphasis mine)
Now "as a tempest of fire" gave me some idea - remember "The Mummy," where Imhotep could travel in the form of a sandstorm? Perhaps they travelled in the form of a great firestorm?
__________________
フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo)
The plot, cut, defeated.
I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
Nilpaurion Felagund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2004, 05:10 PM   #13
Laitoste
Wight
 
Laitoste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Behind the hills
Posts: 164
Laitoste has just left Hobbiton.
That's what I was thinking, Nilpaurion. Storms can move pretty fast, so it wouldn't take too long for one of the balrogs to reach him. And in the time that he's waiting, I'm sure Morgoth could have protected himself.
__________________
"If we're still alive in the morning, we'll know that we're not dead."~South Park
Laitoste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2004, 07:53 PM   #14
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 935
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Quote:
So i'm with Eomer King of Rohan on that one because it would make more sence that they'd use black magic to teleport, rather than sprint across Middle Earth
There are a couple of problems with Eomer King of Rohan's suggestion. First, using "black magic to teleport" is unprecedented in Tolkien's work.

Secondly, Balrogs were incarnated Maiar and were thus bound to their bodies and unable to shift into the spiritual plane for travel.
obloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2004, 08:32 PM   #15
The Perky Ent
Maniacal Mage
 
The Perky Ent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side!
Posts: 3,332
The Perky Ent has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to The Perky Ent
Silmaril

Ah, but if teleportation doesn't exsist, why is there a "spiritual plane for travel"? I see your point though. Also, i can't understand the Ungoliant strangle thingie. Does Morgoth just stand there why she strangles him, or is he trying to fight her?!?
__________________
'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'
The Perky Ent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2004, 09:14 PM   #16
Nilpaurion Felagund
Scion of The Faithful
 
Nilpaurion Felagund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,430
Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Pipe

Quote:
Does Morgoth just stand there why she strangles him, or is he trying to fight her?!?
Surely, he must fight her.

Quote:
But Ungoliant has grown great, and [Morgoth] less by the power that had gone out of him...
'tis an unfair fight. Ungoliant just had breakfast, while Morgoth had been fasting.
__________________
フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo)
The plot, cut, defeated.
I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
Nilpaurion Felagund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2004, 11:24 AM   #17
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Silmaril

Why don't we try not venting about the wings issue.


Since the Balrogs were spirits, normal laws of physics didn't apply to them. As much as we'd like the idea, they didn't teleport either. Urgency makes you work harder, and if you hear your master screaming like he's getting munched by a giant spider for dessert, you'd hurry up darn quick to go save him. Without a fana, an Ainu appears as a naked flame. Have you ever seen how quickly flames spread? Now multiply that by twenty or thirty or however many Balrogs there were. That's one damn big wildfire.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2005, 03:37 AM   #18
Son of Númenor
A Shade of Westernesse
 
Son of Númenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The last wave over Atalantë
Posts: 527
Son of Númenor has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
...and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to asunder the webs of Ungoliant...
For the record, I decided to count the number of times in The Silmarillion the phrases "passing over", "pass over" and "passed over" appear in the context of characters' travels. It turns out that, including the Valaquenta and the Ainulindalë but excluding Akallabêth and Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (I got lazy), the phrases appear 32 times, and are used only twice in the context of flight (to describe the movements of Thorondor and Tilion). In retrospect this was an utterly profitless endeavour, although it is a (minute) dent in the argument of some pro-wingers. Thank you for your time.
Son of Númenor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2005, 04:48 PM   #19
The Perky Ent
Maniacal Mage
 
The Perky Ent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side!
Posts: 3,332
The Perky Ent has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to The Perky Ent
I am now subscribing to a new version of the Balrog Wing issue. They have wings, but cannot fly. Instead, I have figured out Balrogs the way Tolkien wanted it: Balrogs are Hoppers. They travel by hopping, and using their wings to fly. They aren't flying, but they can travel over vast distances as if flying. Plausable?
__________________
'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'
The Perky Ent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2005, 05:53 PM   #20
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 935
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Perky Ent
I am now subscribing to a new version of the Balrog Wing issue. They have wings, but cannot fly. Instead, I have figured out Balrogs the way Tolkien wanted it: Balrogs are Hoppers. They travel by hopping, and using their wings to fly. They aren't flying, but they can travel over vast distances as if flying. Plausable?
At last this issue can be put to rest.
obloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:33 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.