Names of The Nazguls - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Hans Markus Rod · 05-13-2003, 03:48 PM

Are there other Nazguls except from Khamûl who is mentioned by name by Tolkien. This question has been in my mind for a while now, and I sure would like to get the answer.
Khamûl was the second in command after the Witch-King, who was then the third in command. Is the third mentoned anywhere?

Khamûl lived in Dol Guldur since he was the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur. The Witch-King dwelt in Minas Morgul. Where did the other seven dwell? Did they stay with either Kamûl or the Witch-King, or did they have their own fortresses far to the east and south?

Scott · 05-13-2003, 05:49 PM

Well Hans Markus Rod,
IF you do a search you will find about fifteen different discussions on this subject. Here are the ones that I thought were the best: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=001938
and, http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=002550
Basically, all that they say is that only three of the "Nazgul" were named.
The Witch King of Angmar, Khamul, and Gothmog... only Gothmog wasn't really a Nazgul.
~Scott

Kuruharan · 05-13-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

only Gothmog wasn't really a Nazgul.

We don't know that for certain.

balrogman · 05-13-2003, 07:06 PM

its funny, because on LotR trading cards, all the nazgul have names but i cant remember them, even though theyre not true

***Sharkû*** · 05-13-2003, 08:12 PM

What's funnier is that the 'names' on the cards and I believe some other places (someone else 'invented' them IIRC) aren't really names but just Quenya for 'Ringwraith 2' to 'Ringwraith 9'. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

Phrim · 05-14-2003, 08:54 AM

Sharku is, of course, correct. In the Decipher card game, because they didn't want to use non-canon names derived from sources other than Tolkien himself, they used generic names translated into Quenya. Here's an article on the subject:

http://www.decipher.com/lordoftherin...thenazgul.html

Morgoth the Great · 07-03-2003, 06:50 PM

this is something i never got. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] would someone please tell me who Gothmog was! i thought he was a balrog under the service of Melkor, but then i read in an unofficial book he was a Nazgul! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Gorthol · 07-04-2003, 08:53 AM

Quote:

this is something i never got. would someone please tell me who Gothmog was! i thought he was a balrog under the service of Melkor, but then i read in an unofficial book he was a Nazgul!

The "Gothmog" referred to in the older writings concerned with the first age, are the Lord of the Balrogs, killed by Ecthelion in Gondolin. Also called "Morgoth's son". The later "Gothmog" in LoTR is the lieutenant of Minas Morgul, he was no Nazgûl but a black numenorean much like the "Mouth of Sauron", the lieutenant of the Dark Tower..

Afrodal Fenyar · 07-04-2003, 02:20 PM

He may have been a nazgûl, though I too believe he was a Black Numenorean. But we cannot be sure.

***Sharkû*** · 07-04-2003, 04:38 PM

We cannot certainly say whether Gothmog was a Nazgûl or not, and with even less certainty can we say what else he was if he wasn't a Wraith. So please stop stating the utter speculation that he might have been a Black Numenórean as fact.

Gorthol · 07-04-2003, 06:08 PM

Quote:

We cannot certainly say whether Gothmog was a Nazgûl or not, and with even less certainty can we say what else he was if he wasn't a Wraith. So please stop stating the utter speculation that he might have been a Black Numenórean as fact.We cannot certainly say whether Gothmog was a Nazgûl or not, and with even less certainty can we say what else he was if he wasn't a Wraith. So please stop stating the utter speculation that he might have been a Black Numenórean as fact.

This is fact, we can out of the writing comclude that the Leuintanant of the Minas Morgul was never described as a nazgul, in any of of the texts. And thus it should be ok to conclude that he was like the "Mouth of Sauron" the liutenant of the Barad-Dur, a dark numenoeran, the liutenant of the Minas Morgul. Tolkien doesn´t describe Gothomog in detail anywhere, if he would have been a nazgul he would have stated that..

[ July 04, 2003: Message edited by: Gorthol ]

**The Saucepan Man** · 07-04-2003, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Tolkien doesn´t describe Gothomog in detail anywhere, if he would have been a nazgul he would have stated that..

By the same logic, had he been a Black Numenorean, Tolkien would have stated that. No, his origins and state of existence are indeterminate.

Gorthol · 07-04-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

By the same logic, had he been a Black Numenorean, Tolkien would have stated that. No, his origins and state of existence are indeterminate.

Why's that? If he'd been a Nazgûl Tolkien would have let us know about it, during the Pellenor field battle etc.. Or when the troops ascended from Minas Morgul following the Witch King.. It is not *anywhere" mentioned that the lieutenant of Minas Morgul would be a Nazgûl, thus *it is* likely that he would be of the same race as the lieutenant of Barad-dûr, the "Mouth of Sauron".

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-07-2003, 09:23 AM

Legolas · 07-07-2003, 11:11 AM

Quote:

It is not *anywhere" mentioned that the lieutenant of Minas Morgul would be a Nazgûl, thus *it is* likely that he would be of the same race as the lieutenant of Barad-dûr, the "Mouth of Sauron".

You might also note that Khamûl is the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur.

Now you see the problem.

One lt. is a Ringwraith, one is a corrupted man (but not a Ringwraith), and one's race is not given. This is the conclusion of every Gothmog discussion that comes about. I think he's a man on account of Tolkien not stating he was a Nazgul, but that's all the basis I have. Search to see more - this has been done quite a few times.

[ July 07, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Måns · 07-09-2003, 05:02 PM

Ijust heard an interesting theory about Gothmog from a guy called Inderjit Sanghera on msn. He said that Gothmog is the same as the mouth of Sauron with the following argument: "Gothmog renders the name voice of morgoth in Sindarin, Sauron claimed he was morgoth in the t.a. therefore he could be interpreted as the voice of morgoth." This is an interesting theory built upon a purely linguistical reasoning which sounds like Tolkien, but the inconsistensies are many. For example that he was the lieutenant of Morgul and not Barad Dûr, that eh had a name and so on. But I must admit, it was quite an impressive theory to come up with.

Måns

***Sharkû*** · 07-09-2003, 07:56 PM

Two things have to be noted:
I am not an Elvish language expert, but I am unaware that the meaning of Gothmog can be rendered as 'voice of Morgoth'. From the Etymologies in HoME V, reflecting the status of the Elven languages at the time of the writing of LotR, the name can be translated from the two stems

GOS-, GOTH "dread. Q osse terror, as name Osse. Cf. Mandos (see MBAD). N has Oeros for Osse (*Goss). Cf. Taur-os [TAWAR]. N gost dread, terror; gosta- fear exceedingly; cf. Gothrog = Dread Demon [RUK]; Gothmog [MBAW]. Gostir 'dread glance', dragon-name [THE]." (HoME V Etym.)

and MBAW- "compel, force, subject, oppress. Q mauya- compel; mausta compulsion; maure need. N baug tyrannous, cruel, oppressive; bauglo to oppress; bauglir tyrant, oppressor; bui (*mauy-) (impersonal), baur need. Cf. Gothmog (*Gothombauk-) [GOS]." (ibid.)

Even if you equate S./N. bauglir with Morgoth, the name would only mean something like 'dread of Morgoth'.

Much more importantly, LotR states the following:
"The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it" (LotR V, 10).
This logically also excludes the possibility that Gothmog was not the Mouth's real, original name, but only a (later) title. Had it been that, it would have been remembered in the very same tale in which he appears.

05-13-2003, 03:48 PM	#1
Hans Markus Rod Pile O'Bones Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Asker Posts: 23	Names of The Nazguls Are there other Nazguls except from Khamûl who is mentioned by name by Tolkien. This question has been in my mind for a while now, and I sure would like to get the answer. Khamûl was the second in command after the Witch-King, who was then the third in command. Is the third mentoned anywhere? Khamûl lived in Dol Guldur since he was the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur. The Witch-King dwelt in Minas Morgul. Where did the other seven dwell? Did they stay with either Kamûl or the Witch-King, or did they have their own fortresses far to the east and south? __________________ 'In this bloody dawn I will wash my sword, to call the spirit of vengeance, to deny my wisdom for anger, to break the scream of the silent foe and to be the Son of Doom.'

05-13-2003, 05:49 PM	#2
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	Well Hans Markus Rod, IF you do a search you will find about fifteen different discussions on this subject. Here are the ones that I thought were the best: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=001938 and, http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=002550 Basically, all that they say is that only three of the "Nazgul" were named. The Witch King of Angmar, Khamul, and Gothmog... only Gothmog wasn't really a Nazgul. ~Scott __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

05-13-2003, 07:06 PM	#4
balrogman Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: that place with the stuff Posts: 102	its funny, because on LotR trading cards, all the nazgul have names but i cant remember them, even though theyre not true __________________ should i stay or should i go?

07-03-2003, 06:50 PM	#7
Morgoth the Great Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Thangorodrim Posts: 59	this is something i never got. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] would someone please tell me who Gothmog was! i thought he was a balrog under the service of Melkor, but then i read in an unofficial book he was a Nazgul! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ Walking to Rivendell: 130 miles. tiring it is too precious....

07-04-2003, 02:20 PM	#9
Afrodal Fenyar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 94	He may have been a nazgûl, though I too believe he was a Black Numenorean. But we cannot be sure. __________________ "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" ~Eomer

05-13-2003, 08:12 PM	#5
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,721	What's funnier is that the 'names' on the cards and I believe some other places (someone else 'invented' them IIRC) aren't really names but just Quenya for 'Ringwraith 2' to 'Ringwraith 9'. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

05-14-2003, 08:54 AM	#6
Phrim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 73	Sharku is, of course, correct. In the Decipher card game, because they didn't want to use non-canon names derived from sources other than Tolkien himself, they used generic names translated into Quenya. Here's an article on the subject: http://www.decipher.com/lordoftherin...thenazgul.html

07-04-2003, 04:38 PM	#10
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,721	We cannot certainly say whether Gothmog was a Nazgûl or not, and with even less certainty can we say what else he was if he wasn't a Wraith. So please stop stating the utter speculation that he might have been a Black Numenórean as fact.

07-07-2003, 09:23 AM	#14
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,645	__________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-09-2003, 05:02 PM	#16
Måns Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Stockholm Posts: 63	Ijust heard an interesting theory about Gothmog from a guy called Inderjit Sanghera on msn. He said that Gothmog is the same as the mouth of Sauron with the following argument: "Gothmog renders the name voice of morgoth in Sindarin, Sauron claimed he was morgoth in the t.a. therefore he could be interpreted as the voice of morgoth." This is an interesting theory built upon a purely linguistical reasoning which sounds like Tolkien, but the inconsistensies are many. For example that he was the lieutenant of Morgul and not Barad Dûr, that eh had a name and so on. But I must admit, it was quite an impressive theory to come up with. Måns __________________ "One death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a stastistic." Josef Stalin

07-09-2003, 07:56 PM	#17
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,721	Two things have to be noted: I am not an Elvish language expert, but I am unaware that the meaning of Gothmog can be rendered as 'voice of Morgoth'. From the Etymologies in HoME V, reflecting the status of the Elven languages at the time of the writing of LotR, the name can be translated from the two stems GOS-, GOTH "dread. Q osse terror, as name Osse. Cf. Mandos (see MBAD). N has Oeros for Osse (Goss). Cf. Taur-os [TAWAR]. N gost dread, terror; gosta- fear exceedingly; cf. Gothrog = Dread Demon [RUK]; Gothmog [MBAW]. Gostir 'dread glance', dragon-name [THE]." (HoME V Etym.) and MBAW-* "compel, force, subject, oppress. Q mauya- compel; mausta compulsion; maure need. N baug tyrannous, cruel, oppressive; bauglo to oppress; bauglir tyrant, oppressor; bui (mauy-) (impersonal), baur need. Cf. Gothmog (Gothombauk-) [GOS]." (ibid.) Even if you equate S./N. bauglir with Morgoth, the name would only mean something like 'dread of Morgoth'. Much more importantly, LotR states the following: "The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it" (LotR V, 10). This logically also excludes the possibility that Gothmog was not the Mouth's real, original name, but only a (later) title. Had it been that, it would have been remembered in the very same tale in which he appears.