king fingolfin

[sleepless_elf]

just referring back to the fight between king fingolfin and morgoth. did fingolfin really stand a chance? could he have possibly killed the physical form of morgoth? or was he doomed from the beggining?
just interested in your comments.

[Inziladun]

[QUOTE]could he have possibly killed the physical form of morgoth? or was he doomed from the beggining? [/QUOTE

As powerful as Fingolfin was, I don't think he (or anyone else among Elves, Men, or Dwarves ) could offer a serious threat of destroying even Morgoth's body.
I don't have my copy of The Silmarillion handy, and I can't remember exactly how the quote runs, but Mandos (I think) told Féanor as much after learning of Féanor's words in Valinor blaming the Valar for being unable to prevent Morgoth from doing evil in their own realm. Féanor had said something to the effect that the Valar and Morgoth were "of one kin". Mandos responded by telling Féanor that if that was the case, Féanor's Oath was vain, because he could not defeat any of the Valar, "even though Eru had made thee three times as great as thou art".

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...I would say that the physical manifestation of Morgoth could be destroyed. Morgoth was wounded several times by Fingolfin, and he walked with a halting limp for the rest of his days due to the damage inflicted. The physical manifestations of Sauron, Gandalf and Saruman were each destroyed in a conflict, and there really is no difference between Valar and Maiar, save different designations of power within the Ainur.

[sleepless_elf]

Thats true Morthoron... because Gil-galad and Elendil actually destroyed saurons body, although they were themselves slain in the process.

[Inziladun]

The physical manifestations of Sauron, Gandalf and Saruman were each destroyed in a conflict, and there really is no difference between Valar and Maiar, save different designations of power within the Ainur.

I would argue that the Istari cannot be said to be comparable to Sauron and the Valar as regards their embodiment.

By 'incarnate', I mean (the Istari) were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour.

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien # 156

He seems to take pains to differentiate them from other instances of Vala and Maia incarnations. The Valar are able to present themselves in physical forms, though that is said to be analogous to the Children of Ilúvatar wearing clothes.

I also found the quote from The Silmarillion I had half-remembered.

A messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'The lies of Melkor shalt thou unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art'

Upon reading the real quote, the question appears to be what is meant by 'overcome'. Morgoth was certainly wounded by Fingolfin; and Sauron's incarnate form was removed three times: the Fall of Númenor, the end of the Second Age when the Ring was cut from his finger, and, of course, the final destruction of the Ring. Sauron was said by Gollum to be missing the finger from which Isildur cut the ring, so he was obviously capable of physical injury.
From a simply physical perspective, I still don't believe Fingolfin could have finished Morgoth. He had much greater strength and stature, and in the end simply wore Fingolfin down. How much damage would it take to destroy one among the most powerful even of the Valar? Sauron's body was, I think, only outright destroyed by physical violence once: by the sinking of Númenor. The other times it was the loss of the Ring that made him discorporeal. And, as was noted above, Sauron was of a lower degree of angelic spirit than Morgoth.

[skip spence]

Inziladun, I don't believe that quote (spoken by Mandos, if I remember correctly) means that Fingolfin, or any other Elf, couldn't in theory 'kill' Morgoth. Morgoth was incarnate at this time and his physical manifestation could be destroyed, which would 'kill' him. As has been said, Fingolfin hurt him repeatedly and of all the Valar he was the only one to know fear. My interpretation is that it was fate that none of the Noldor would be able to defeat Morgoth. Fingolfin was just not meant to win and remember, Mandos knows all that is to come. The Noldor were cursed because of their rebellion and evil deeds, and only by repenting and begging for forgiveness could they be delivered.

[Inziladun]

skip spence

Inziladun, I don't believe that quote (spoken by Mandos, if I remember correctly) means that Fingolfin, or any other Elf, couldn't in theory 'kill' Morgoth. Morgoth was incarnate at this time and his physical manifestation could be destroyed, which would 'kill' him. As has been said, Fingolfin hurt him repeatedly and of all the Valar he was the only one to know fear. My interpretation is that it was fate that none of the Noldor would be able to defeat Morgoth. Fingolfin was just not meant to win and remember, Mandos knows all that is to come.

In The Silmarillion it says that the speaker of the quote was simply a messenger from Manwë. As to the rest, you may be right. Since no one else among the Children of Ilúvatar was known to have faced Morgoth in single combat, whether a Telerin Elf, a Dwarf, or a Man could have destroyed his form will remain debatable. The original question here was whether Fingolfin was capable of it, and we seem to be in agreement that the answer is 'no'.