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Old 04-30-2002, 12:57 PM   #1
haste
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Pipe Celeborn and his shaded past

I have recently started reading Tolkien once more after a few months of reading nothing but Tom Clancy and I have found that going back and reading it when one has not read it for a long while certain points are made clearer. I seem to recall a huge thread on here stating the origin of Celeborn's earlier life. The arguement was did Celeborn come over to Beliriand with the rebel elves and Galadriel or did Galadriel met and fall in love with him in Doriath?

Now I am reading FOTR and in the chapter "The Mirror of Galadriel" there is a line that I feel might need cleared up or it might just prove one of those arguements. It goes as follows.

"For the Lord of the Galadrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted;"

Now that is Galadriel talking to the company and I was just wondering if anyone knows if "The West" stated in that quote is Aman or Beliriand. I also noticed that Tolkien Capitilized "West" in the qoate and I just dont see Beliriand if it was refered to as the the West to be capitalized. So as for me I believe she meant that they were both from Aman and came over. But someone smarter then me please tell me if I am wrong.
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Old 04-30-2002, 01:06 PM   #2
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wot book where u reading when you found tat bit of info about celeborn?
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Old 04-30-2002, 01:10 PM   #3
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The history of the relationship between Galadriel and Celeborn is unclear. Unfinished Tales contains several drafts of essays about the two which only heighten the confusion. One has Celeborn living in Alqualonde in Aman with the two taking ship to Middle Earth after the kinslaying and perhaps never living in Beleriand. Another version has Celeborn dwelling in Doriath as a kinsman of Thingol with Galadriel meeting him there. LoTR states that the two dwelt in Beleriand but left before the fall of Nargothrond.
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Old 04-30-2002, 01:16 PM   #4
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I have read the unfinished tales as well and that thought has crossed my mind because the whole mystery of those two elves takes up quite a bit of space. But I also know that Tolkien himself didn't publish UT but his son did. Now where I get into the problem is that Tolkien published "Fellowship of the Ring" himself and with the quote previously stated wouldn't we take that as being more concrete then the UT. I mean we still have the question of what does "West" means and Tolkien did write the UT, he just didn't publish it. Now maybe Tolkien did have a one story about those two that he did use but Christopher Tolkien just decided to put both in. So I guess the mystery continues...
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Old 04-30-2002, 01:39 PM   #5
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Indeed it does. The term "West" could mean either Valinor or the west of Middle Earth. All we know for certain is that they did live in Beleriand for a time...
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Old 04-30-2002, 02:07 PM   #6
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Question

*Lush bangs her head on her desk in utter confusion*

But what about The Silmarillion? It does say that Celeborn was a kinsman of Thingol, and that when Galadriel visited Doriath, she remained, because there was "great love" between her and Celeborn...right?

What I'm trying to say is that I was under the impression that they met for the first time in Doriath, and that Celeborn was one of those Elves who had, at that point, stayed in Middle Earth for all his life.

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]
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Old 04-30-2002, 05:33 PM   #7
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We now get to the question of how much of The Silmarillion to accept as canon.
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Old 04-30-2002, 05:49 PM   #8
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Ah, if only J. R. R. was here...

Actually, I find this not knowing somewaht fun and refreshing! I believe that "the West" is in fact The Undying Lands, but I also think that Galadriel and Celeborn met in Doriath. In the Noldor rebellion in Valinor and the pursuit of Melkor, Galadriel is described (imho) as being a young, strong, independent and not-yet-affiliated-with-anyone Noldor princess.

Of course, this is just the way I see it, but that is the beauty of Tolkien's works: so many mysteries still unsolved, and our entire - collective perhaps? - imagination to ponder and dream about it...
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Old 04-30-2002, 05:53 PM   #9
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What Kuruharan means is that Christopher Tolkien edited what he believed to be the most final version of his father's work to create the Silmarillion. Sometimes his "editing" took the form of writing pieces which were not completed (the Fall of Doriath)and on other occaisions he was forced to choose between inconsistent versions. Also, the "editing" took place over a period of less than 4 years and he later discovered other versions and essays which were not included and may have both differed from the published version as well as reflecting his father's later or possibly more final interpretations. The Celeborn/Galadriel pieces found in Unfinished Tales were fragmentary and somewhat contradictory. If he had incorporated some version of them it would have entailed rewriting his father's work and also guessing as to which was the final conception. Thus the Silmarillion was Christopher's "best guess" as of 1977, before he had an opportunity to thoroughly review his father's papers. He admits that, in places, he "guessed" incorrectly.
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Old 05-01-2002, 07:43 AM   #10
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Oh Kuruharan! You are opening a Pandora's box - but an interesting one nonetheless. What constitutes 'canonicity' in Tolkien's writings is a little like the Medieval Schoolmen's debate as to how many angels could dance on the end of a pin! I fear it will be 'pistols at dawn' for many warring members. At this point I don't enter the lists to debate canonicity, but it is an area that I know causes flames to rise that would put to shame those of Mount Doom!
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Old 05-01-2002, 09:21 AM   #11
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But wasn't Celeborn considered a Sindarin Elf, one who hadn't been into the West. The days of dawn might mean the beginning days of the sun, which was after the Noldor left Valinor, so the west seems to refer to Beleriand.

[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]
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Old 05-01-2002, 02:54 PM   #12
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I think that is true but I will have to go back and take a closer look. I was always under the impression that Celeborn was a Sindar. And knowing that Elwe was the only one of the Sindar to have seen the light of the two trees. Now that just brings more contriversy.
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Old 05-01-2002, 03:40 PM   #13
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Oh Kuruharan! You are opening a Pandora's box - but an interesting one nonetheless.
Who, me? I didn't open the box, I...er...um...mearly pointed out that the box had already been opened. Yes, that's it! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I mearly pointed out that the box had been opened, making sure that it was clear to all what had happened. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 02-19-2003, 12:57 PM   #14
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Mithadan has provided a very succinct summary of the Silmarillion dilemna.

It can not truly be considered canon on the level with the four books published during his lifetime: THe Hobbitm THe LotR, The Adventures of TB and The RGEO, also there is a guide for translators included in " The Tolkien Compass".

What we are given especially in UT, and the final 3 volumes of HoME is an extremely large variety of sometimes contradictory information.

The general approach to deciding what is authoritative is to try and figure out whay the final conception was.

In the case of Galadriel and Celeborn, it was JRRT's conception of Galadriel having departed Aman seperately from the rest of the Noldor with a telerin Prince Teleporno [ the telerin version of Celeborn], and not only, not participating in Feanor's revolt [most particularly the kinslaying] but actually fighting against the feranoreans and those of the House of Fingolfin that mistakenly aided them. She and Celeborn with one or two others [ I forget which] then departed Alqualonde seperately, but still came under the Ban of the Valar.

All well and good, and indeed JRRT was by these developments expressing his ever-increasing 'understanding' of the role of Galadriel as the philisophical and Nolodorin opposite to Feanor.

It all runs aground however with the fact that the above mentioned 'final' version goes completly against what is implied in the LotR but is expressly stated in the Road Goes Ever On.

We do not know if he would have stuck with the final version and revised the previous writings to come into accord with them [ he did make numerous small and at least one very large revision [ the riddle-game and ring finding in the original Hobbit] to his works before soit is conceivable that he might have done so again, although his stated preference was to stick with whatever he had already released publicly.

There is as you see no perfect solution to the Galdriel/Celeborn question, but most 'canonists' side with taking the printed texts as a baseline and only incuding such details and stories from HoME and UT as do not conflict with JRRT's 'official' works; of which the Silmarillion is alas, not one.

The final complication comes with the aforementioned somewhat pre-mature compilation of CJRT before all of the nuances of the Legendarium could be worked out. which leads me to the following Question.

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 02-19-2003, 04:05 PM   #15
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In Tolkien's letters he states that while Celeborn is indeed a relative of Elu Thingol, king at Doriath and a grey elf who has not seen the light of Aman, Celeborn had. They were distant in relation, although they would have recognized eachother as kindred. Indeed they must have, because Celeborn was one of those elves who went to Valinor, and there he met (or even before that) Galadriel. They have been together from the beginning, practically, since before the sun we shall say. They (meaning Galadriel) had already planned on returning to Middle Earth for legitimate reasons, when the rebellion of Feanor took place, and so they got there via a different means than they first planned. Galadriel (with Celeborn) were forced to cross the Helcaraxe, and endured hardships, only now the ban of the Valar and the doom of Mandos had been placed, and so Galadriel in the least was unable to return unless some unforeseen redemption may come about. Celeborn and Galadriel then dwelled in Doriath with Thingol and Melian, and then later (probably even before the second age) they migrated to the region between the Blue and the Misty Mountains. Here they dwelled, until later before Sauron first returned, and even visited Khazad Dum, frequently, when later they founded Lothlorien. So Celeborn's past, is not so much shady as always at the side or with Galadriel's, as she was more important and referred to more from a historical point of view. How he went about courting and later wedding the great and beautiful spirit that was Galadriel, with her enormous beauty (which even Feanor was in awe of), and in olden days her knack for participation of sports only 'males' tended to embark upon or participate in, is unknown. He seems to have been very, very lucky. Then it comes to Celeborn's children. Treebeard near the end of Book III said in elvish, something like "welcome, beautiful ones and parents of beautiful children." Children, plural, which tends to say that there were more than just Celebrian (and later Arwen Undomiel as grand-daughter). This could support the claim that Amroth was Celeborn's son. Indeed, then since Amroth (and many elves) left because evil had been awakened in Khazad Dum, and this led to Amroth's demise, could explain his slight resentment towards Gimli at first, of course being the great and flexible lord he was, (and that Galadriel had the keener insight that he listened to) he changed his mind. His past, though, is not altogether 'shady.' It is, however, shadowed.
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Old 02-19-2003, 04:43 PM   #16
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Elwe was only Celeborn's great uncle - not *that* distant, I'd say.
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Old 01-22-2010, 10:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by haste
(...) "For the Lord of the Galadrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted;"

Now that is Galadriel talking to the company and I was just wondering if anyone knows if "The West" stated in that quote is Aman or Beliriand.
The general West of Middle-earth, it would seem. In his history of Galadriel and Celeborn Christopher Tolkien notes that the concept underlying Galadriel's words to Frodo includes Celeborn being a Nandorin Elf (it's a little more complicated if we look at the very early draft versions here).

Of course Tolkien revised the idea, if not the text, before The Lord of the Rings was published, with Celeborn becoming Sindarin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur
Treebeard near the end of Book III said in elvish, something like "welcome, beautiful ones and parents of beautiful children." Children, plural, which tends to say that there were more than just Celebrian (and later Arwen Undomiel as grand-daughter). This could support the claim that Amroth was Celeborn's son.
Tolkien abandoned this however (in a late text Amroth is the son of Amdir). Also, Christopher Tolkien thinks it unlikely that his father considered Amroth Galadriel's son while writing The Lord of the Rings. Hammond and Scull note this in their Reader's Companion, and suggest: 'Treebeard probably is referring more generally to their descendants.'

In The Road Goes Ever On falmalinnar is broken down with the indication that -li means 'many'. Compare to the stem LI- as it stood in the Etymologies (at least) found in The Lost Road: 'LI- many. Q. lie people; -li pl. suffix, lin- prefix=many...'

Treebeard's vanimįlion 'of fair ones' might really mean 'of many fair ones', which maybe implies the ent is being very general here. This is one specific interpretation of -li, but that noted, Tolkien's Words, Phrases and Passages (relatively recently published in Parma Eldalamberon 17) has at least now echoed the interpretation.

Quote:
'falmali 'many waves' (PE17 p. 73) 'Q. -li, i-falma-li-nna-r, the-foam wave-many-towards-pl. ending,' (PE17 p. 127)
If 'many fair ones', this would hardly seem to refer to two children, if Amroth is meant; not to mention one child if he is not meant.

If

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Old 01-23-2010, 10:53 AM   #18
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This is an interesting old thread, Galin.

The original question was whether Celeborn had spent time in the Blessed Realm, and the answer does seem to be 'no'.
If Celeborn was accounted among the Sindar (as seems likely to me), there is a line from the Silmarillion which would seem to quash the notion of his going to Aman:

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Great power Melain lent to Thingol, who was himself great among the Eldar; for he alone of all the Sindar had seen with his own eyes the Trees in the day of their flowering.
Of Thingol and Melian

If Celeborn had been in Aman, I'd think it likely it would have been in the time of the Trees, and it is inconceivable he would have been there and not looked upon them.
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Old 01-24-2010, 10:35 AM   #19
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Good find Inziladun.

The statement you note can be found in the Later Quenta Silmarillion (I), so it's within the range when Celeborn was imagined as Sindarin. So far, the earliest I can date the notion that Celeborn was an Elf from Aman, is possibly 1968 (The Shibboleth of Feanor is dated by Hammond and Scull as '1968 or later' in their guide, and under entry 'c. 1969 or later' in their chronology, so it would seem that a general 'around this time' is the best we can do so far).

This makes enough sense compared to the publication of The Road Goes Ever On, in which Celeborn is one of the Sindar. This book was published in the US in October 1967, in Great Britain in March 1968, although obviously Tolkien would be working on the information before these dates.

I suppose one could argue then, that Tolkien intended to revise this passage in the Silmarillion along with other things, if Celeborn was truly going to become a Teler from Aman; however that would not be his only consideration in any case, as there were other problematic concerns with respect to this change (not the least of which was stepping on statements in already published material).



Focusing more on the word West, in Appendix B for instance, the Istari are said to hail from the Far West, while Gandalf is then noted to have '... wandered mostly in the West and never made for himself any lasting abode' (assuming the capitalization in this example follows Tolkien).

Haste asked about the ultimate version of the passage published in The Lord of the Rings, and it is this version in which Celeborn dwelling in the West is seemingly Celeborn the Nandorin Elf -- again, meaning the underlying concept when written, that is. However a meaning 'the West of Middle-earth' still seems generally applicable to a Sindarin Celeborn.


From what I can tell, it looks like the word West came along with the 'Nandorin phase', although it's hard to be sure. Early on, both Galadriel and Celeborn might have been imagined as Noldorin Elves, but an early addition had Galadriel noting that she had dwelt 'here' with Celeborn since the days of dawn, when she passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor

In any case, unless I missed it, no word West appears in the earliest draft texts here, and again I assume -- since the introduction of the ultimate form of this passage is not noted in The History Of Middle-Earth (that I recall) -- that the word entered the revised passage when Celeborn became Nandorin (whatever he was originally in 1941).

Or if it is noted somewhere in HME, please remind me.
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Old 01-24-2010, 12:12 PM   #20
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I believe that it is important for one to consider Tolkien's final statement about Celeborn that appears in the letters, because it was made in December of 1972, less than a year before he died. He is answering questions about various names and Quenya vs. Sindarin, and says (letter 347):

Quote:
Celeborn is a translation of the original name Teleporno; though said to be a kinsman of Elu Thingol he was so only far off, for he too came from Valinor.
Even amid all the revisions and alterations that were still ongoing at the time of his death, this statement, made late in his life, would to me indicate that this was very likely Tolkien's ultimate decision on the matter. We cannot know for certain, obviously, but I would consider this statement more "final," closer to what he envisioned as the most desirable form for his legendarium than statements made earlier. But that's just me.

As to Treebeard's allusion to Galadriel and Celeborn having more than one child, I would not dismiss it out of hand, since there are other characters in this mythology who had more than one child, but not all were actually named. Aragorn and Arwen come first to mind; we only know the name of their son and heir, not any of their daughters who are mentioned only in brief passing.
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:34 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ibrīnišilpathānezel
(...) Even amid all the revisions and alterations that were still ongoing at the time of his death, this statement, made late in his life, would to me indicate that this was very likely Tolkien's ultimate decision on the matter. We cannot know for certain, obviously, but I would consider this statement more "final," closer to what he envisioned as the most desirable form for his legendarium than statements made earlier.
I would have a few questions here, as the seeming change of Celeborn appears to incorporate a fuller change involving Galadriel as well.

A) was Tolkien really going to have Galadriel marry her first cousin?

B) why did Celeborn, if from Aman, not leave Middle-earth at the same time as Galadriel?

C) was Tolkien truly going to change both Galadriel's already published role in the Noldorin Rebellion, and Celeborn's already published Sindarin status?

I'm not sure Tolkien considered these questions whenever he put the idea of a Telerin Celeborn to paper, or if he even remembered just what he had written versus what he had put into print. With respect to B however: when we know Tolkien actually considered this matter, he explained that Celeborn had never been to Aman.

Quote:
'(...) These comments imply that Celeborn could have left Middle-earth with Galadriel if he had wished, and Tolkien's replies to queries from readers seem to confirm this. In his unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963 he comments that Celeborn and Galadriel were of different kin: Celeborn was of that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar to go to Valinor; he had never seen the Blessed Realm. Now he remained until he had seen the coming of the Dominion of Men. But to an immortal Elf, for whom time was not as it is to mortals, the period in which he was parted from Galadriel would seem brief.'

Hammond And Scull, The Lord of the Rings, A Reader's Companion
And Tolkien's memory becomes an issue. In The Peoples of Middle-Earth Christopher Tolkien refers to three essays written during his father's last years, and some brief writings 'that appear to derive from the last years of his life' primarily concerned with or arising from the Glorfindel question. He writes...

Quote:
'These late writings are notable for the many wholly new elements that entered the 'legendarium'; and also for the number of departures from earlier work on the Matter of the Elder Days. It may be suggested that whereas my father set great store by consistency at all points with The Lord of the Rings and the Appendices, so little concerning the First Age had appeared in print that he was under far less constraint. I am inclined to think, however, that the primary explanation of these differences lies rather in his writing largely from memory. The histories of the First Age would always remain in a somewhat fluid state so long as they were not fixed in published work; and he certainly did not have all the relevant manuscripts clearly arranged and set out before him. But it remains in any case an open question, whether (to give a single example) in the essay Of Dwarves and Men he had definitely rejected the greatly elaborated account of the houses of the Edain that had entered the Quenta Silmarillion in about 1958, or whether it had passed from his mind.'

Christopher Tolkien, Foreword, The Peoples of Middle-Earth
I note the Celebrimbor matter, for example, where Tolkien writes a late, variant history for Celebrimbor... however JRRT had evidently forgotten that he had added that Celebrimbor was Feanorian to the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, and CJRT notes that had his father remembered this, he would have felt bound by the published account.

Although Tolkien did revise even already published text at times, he had an extra consideration here with respect to secondary world building. Christopher Tolkien also notes his father's: 'intense concern to avoid discrepany and inconsistency' even though in the case raised, JRRT's anxiety was actually unfounded (Of Dwarves And Men, note 8).

Quote:
As to Treebeard's allusion to Galadriel and Celeborn having more than one child, I would not dismiss it out of hand, since there are other characters in this mythology who had more than one child, but not all were actually named. Aragorn and Arwen come first to mind; we only know the name of their son and heir, not any of their daughters who are mentioned only in brief passing.
That's true in general, but the evidence here does not seem very strong, at least to my mind. It seems to me that the main reason some raise the possibility that Amroth is Galadriel's son is not really Treebeard's statement -- which of course in any event does not refer to Amroth specifically as one of Galadriel's children or descendants -- but the outline Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn.

But in any case this idea is essentially abandoned by comparison to a later text.

Last edited by Galin; 01-25-2010 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 01-24-2010, 06:00 PM   #22
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A question of grammar

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Originally Posted by Ibrīnišilpathānezel View Post
I believe that it is important for one to consider Tolkien's final statement about Celeborn that appears in the letters, because it was made in December of 1972, less than a year before he died. etc.
Ah, but the original question by haste was:

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"For the Lord of the Galadrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted;"
Now that is Galadriel talking to the company and I was just wondering if anyone knows if "The West" stated in that quote is Aman or Beliriand.
I'm inclined to agree with Galin that what matters here was the author's intention at the time of writing. haste was, after all, asking what one particular passage meant.

Further, I think that in this case the question of canonicity is rather beside the point. Regardless of which version of Celeborn's origins one accepts, I'd say that the quote simply refers to his time in the west of Middle Earth. Galadriel's use of "he has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him" implies that she is not talking about the distant past.
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Last edited by Nerwen; 01-24-2010 at 06:01 PM. Reason: X'd with Galin.
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Old 01-24-2010, 06:03 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
Christopher Tolkien also notes his father's: 'intense concern to avoid discrepany and inconsistency'
It does seem to me at times that JRRT's efforts on this front wound up leading to even more discrepancy and inconsistency, because while he was attempting to attain it, he was also altering things to conform in other ways (for instance, his statement that LotR was "consciously Catholic" in its revision, and his subsequent problems in creating what to him was a logical origin for the orcs within his beliefs about the immortal soul). There was a lot of overthinking going on, I fear, which is why no one, not even CT will ever truly know all the details of what Tolkien wanted.

But it makes quite a fertile ground for speculation, doesn't it?
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