Is Mordor language the Maiar language? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Earendil Halfelven · 02-26-2003, 11:34 PM

I was just wondering about Sauron's language. Since he is a maiar, could the language he speaks be similar to the language of other Maiar or could it also be the language of the Maiar? I was thinking that since Sauron was a servant of Melkor that Mordor language is probably similar to that of the Maiar and probably the Valar. What do you think?

Tar-Palantir · 02-27-2003, 01:02 AM

This a copied from a section on an interesting web page for languages of ME.

Quote:

Where did the vocabulary of the Black Speech come from? Surely Sauron had no more "love of words or things" than his servants had, and one might well think that he simply invented words arbitrarily. This may be true in some cases, but it appears that he also picked words from many sources, even the Elvish languages: "The word uruk that occurs in the Black Speech, devised (it is said) by Sauron to serve as a lingua franca for his subjects, was probably borrowed by him from the Elvish tongues of earlier times" (WJ:390). Uruk may be similar to Quenya urco, orco or Sindarin orch, but it is identical to the ancient Elvish form *uruk (variants *urku, *uruku, whence Q urco, and *urkô, whence perhaps S orch). But how could Sauron know Primitive Quendian? Was he the one who took care of the Elves Morgoth captured at Cuiviénen, and perhaps even responsible for the "genetic engineering" that transformed them into Orcs? As a Maia, he would easily have interpreted their tongue (WJ:406). To the first Elves, Morgoth and his servants would be *urukî or "horrors", for the original meaning of the word was that vague and general, and Sauron may have delighted in telling the captured Elves that they were to become *urukî themselves. In his mind, the word evidently stuck.

But there were also other sources for Black Speech vocabulary. The word for "ring" was nazg, very similar to the final element in the Valarin word mâchananaškâd "the Doom-ring" (WJ:401, there somewhat differently spelt). Being a Maia, Sauron would know Valarin; it could indeed be his "mothertongue", to use the only term available. If it seems blasphemous to suggest that the tongue of the Gods may have been an ingredient in Sauron's Black Speech, "full of harsh and hideous sounds and vile words", it should be remembered that according to Pengolodh, "the effect of Valarin upon Elvish ears was not pleasing" (WJ:398). Morgoth, technically being a Vala, must have known Valarin (or at least picked it up during the ages he was captive in Valinor). According to LR:178 he taught it to his slaves in a "perverted" form. If so, Valarin naškâd "ring" may have produced nazg in one Orkish dialect of the Second Age, from which Sauron took it.

Here is a link if you would like: languages and stuff

Meoshi · 02-28-2003, 04:29 PM

A Maia. Sauron was a Maia.

Another thing: Why did the Elves shudder at hearing the Black Speech at Rivendell? Was it that awful-sounding? Or was it the link to Valarin?

Arvedui III · 02-28-2003, 04:35 PM

Good question. Maybe both?

02-28-2003, 04:56 PM

why would elves (who weren't still exiled) shudder in apparent horror if it was linked to the valar? it was obviously not as valarish (if that's the right word) as well as elvish was a language of beauty and song and this language was harsh and stony. i think it's probably derived from an ancient orcish as the sounds and words are very similar.

Meoshi · 02-28-2003, 05:00 PM

Remember that Orcs had no unique language of their own; they perverted the languages of others, filling them with their foul curses.

Perhaps the Black Speech is completely unique? Sauron doesn't seem like a lingual type, but if you are a Dark Lord, it might be handy to have your own language, if only to use it as a code.

Lady Alasse · 02-28-2003, 08:54 PM

Wasn't Gandalf also a Maiar, he could also speak the black speach. Where does it say that Valarin was harsh on the ears? I'm just wondering. I always thought it would sound nice. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Scott · 05-25-2003, 07:36 PM

I don't know how it would sound, but Valarin is described as sounding like the glitter of swords.
I think all of the elves shuddered at the Black Speech in Rivendell just because it was the Black Speech. Not only does it sound scary, but it represents the evil in the world that they fear. Heck, when I heard Gandalf talk in it in the movie, I shuddered myself. Ardalambion has an interesting section on the Black Speech that I think answers most of the questions asked.
~Scott

Finwe · 05-26-2003, 03:35 PM

I have also read that Valarin sounded harsh to the ears of the Elves, just because it contained a lot of "zh" sounds and others similar to that. Think of a harsher-sounding version of Khuzdul. As for Sauron taking elements from Valarin, I wouldn't put it past him. I remember reading somewhere that Sauron could not create, he could only corrupt. So it would make sense that he would take bits of other languages and corrupt them into something that all "good people" would instantly shudder at.

Lindolirian · 05-28-2003, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Why did the Elves shudder at hearing the Black Speech at Rivendell?

They shuddered not only because it sounded harsh but mainly because of the words. These were the very words that they heard when Sauron first put on the One Ring. It most likely brought back memories of the horror of the thought of enslavement, not to mention they were the words that started the War in which many of their friends and/or relatives died, and also in which they might still die. It was not just the harsh sound of the Black Speech that made them shudder, but the meaning that the words held for them.

On the argument of Black Speech having its origins in the language of the Maiar, I believe that it is not blasphemous to think so, because every language has its origin somewhere, and the Maiar's language was probably one of Sauron's "native languages". He could not have possibly thought up a languge that was not based on something that he was fluent in or used to. Not even Tolkien did that. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Afrodal Fenyar · 05-28-2003, 01:42 PM

Quote:

They shuddered not only because it sounded harsh but mainly because of the words. These were the very words that they heard when Sauron first put on the One Ring.

Where was this said, btw? I've read it myself, but can't simply remember it now..

Lindolirian · 05-28-2003, 03:30 PM

FotR: the Council of Elrond

Quote:

Out of the Black Years come the words that the Smiths of Eregion heard, and knew that they had been betrayed.

Finwe · 05-28-2003, 06:11 PM

Considering how much Sauron enjoyed corrupting all that was good, could it be possible that the reason Black Speech sounds similar to Valarin is that Sauron wanted a corrupted version of Valarin for his slaves to use? In that way, he would have mocked Iluvatar, by saying, "Look, don't I resemble you? I'm doing exactly what you were." That would have greatly hurt Iluvatar and the Valar, which is probably what Sauron was going for.

Scott · 05-28-2003, 06:24 PM

Hitting on the main question again, I was just reading the history of the black speech on Ardalambion a few moments ago and I found this:
"Where did the vocabulary of the Black Speech come from? Surely Sauron had no more "love of words or things" than his servants had, and one might well think that he simply invented words arbitrarily. This may be true in some cases, but it appears that he also picked words from many sources, even the Elvish languages: "The word uruk that occurs in the Black Speech, devised (it is said) by Sauron to serve as a lingua franca for his subjects, was probably borrowed by him from the Elvish tongues of earlier times" (WJ:390). Uruk may be similar to Quenya urco, orco or Sindarin orch, but it is identical to the ancient Elvish form *uruk (variants *urku, *uruku, whence Q urco, and *urkô, whence perhaps S orch). But how could Sauron know Primitive Quendian? Was he the one who took care of the Elves Morgoth captured at Cuiviénen, and perhaps even responsible for the "genetic engineering" that transformed them into Orcs? As a Maia, he would easily have interpreted their tongue (WJ:406). To the first Elves, Morgoth and his servants would be *urukî or "horrors", for the original meaning of the word was that vague and general, and Sauron may have delighted in telling the captured Elves that they were to become *urukî themselves. In his mind, the word evidently stuck.

But there were also other sources for Black Speech vocabulary. The word for "ring" was nazg, very similar to the final element in the Valarin word mâchananaškâd "the Doom-ring" (WJ:401, there somewhat differently spelt). Being a Maia, Sauron would know Valarin; it could indeed be his "mothertongue", to use the only term available. If it seems blasphemous to suggest that the tongue of the Gods may have been an ingredient in Sauron's Black Speech, "full of harsh and hideous sounds and vile words", it should be remembered that according to Pengolodh, "the effect of Valarin upon Elvish ears was not pleasing" (WJ:398). Morgoth, technically being a Vala, must have known Valarin (or at least picked it up during the ages he was captive in Valinor). According to LR:178 he taught it to his slaves in a "perverted" form. If so, Valarin naškâd "ring" may have produced nazg in one Orkish dialect of the Second Age, from which Sauron took it."(www.ardalmbion.com)
So I guess it has it's roots in Elvish and Valarin. That is of course if you rely wholeheartedly upon Ardalambion as a viable source of information. I myself do.

~Scott

Baran · 06-20-2003, 10:00 PM

Scott, it is wise to read the thread before you post.

06-30-2003, 12:05 AM

I always thought the elves were upset because the dark tongue was being spoken in their home. The people of Middle Earth seem to place great importance on what is spoken where and when. They refuse to talk about evil things at night (LotR:FotR The Shadow of the Past). Another example of this preoccupation with the power speech is more closely related to the subject. Gandalf says in the same chapter that he "will not utter here "(in the shire)" speech of Mordor. I think in their minds it spoils a land and brings evil over it to speak words of such an evil origin in a land as yet untouched by evil. However I might be wrong. Feel free to correct me.

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: BobTheGrey ]

07-05-2003, 10:28 PM

hey, don`t forget that Morgoth not Sauron started the orcs and such, they were his slaves he was above them and they like so many cultures on earth probably created their own language and with the vulgarnis of them and their language it would quickly be dispised to hear.

02-26-2003, 11:34 PM	#1
Earendil Halfelven Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: the dark recesses of the mind Posts: 223	Is Mordor language the Maiar language? I was just wondering about Sauron's language. Since he is a maiar, could the language he speaks be similar to the language of other Maiar or could it also be the language of the Maiar? I was thinking that since Sauron was a servant of Melkor that Mordor language is probably similar to that of the Maiar and probably the Valar. What do you think? __________________ In nomini domine saboath sui filique ite ad infernos.

02-28-2003, 04:35 PM	#4
Arvedui III Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In Rohan, with Carolina on my mind Posts: 631	Good question. Maybe both? __________________ I have no idea what you just said, but I'm inspired!

02-28-2003, 08:54 PM	#7
Lady Alasse Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Gondolin, Middle Earth Posts: 103	Wasn't Gandalf also a Maiar, he could also speak the black speach. Where does it say that Valarin was harsh on the ears? I'm just wondering. I always thought it would sound nice. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by my arms.-II Samuel 22:35

05-25-2003, 07:36 PM	#8
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	I don't know how it would sound, but Valarin is described as sounding like the glitter of swords. I think all of the elves shuddered at the Black Speech in Rivendell just because it was the Black Speech. Not only does it sound scary, but it represents the evil in the world that they fear. Heck, when I heard Gandalf talk in it in the movie, I shuddered myself. Ardalambion has an interesting section on the Black Speech that I think answers most of the questions asked. ~Scott __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

05-26-2003, 03:35 PM	#9
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I have also read that Valarin sounded harsh to the ears of the Elves, just because it contained a lot of "zh" sounds and others similar to that. Think of a harsher-sounding version of Khuzdul. As for Sauron taking elements from Valarin, I wouldn't put it past him. I remember reading somewhere that Sauron could not create, he could only corrupt. So it would make sense that he would take bits of other languages and corrupt them into something that all "good people" would instantly shudder at. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

02-28-2003, 04:29 PM	#3
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	A Maia. Sauron was a Maia. Another thing: Why did the Elves shudder at hearing the Black Speech at Rivendell? Was it that awful-sounding? Or was it the link to Valarin?

02-28-2003, 04:56 PM	#5
doom _huntress Guest Posts: n/a	why would elves (who weren't still exiled) shudder in apparent horror if it was linked to the valar? it was obviously not as valarish (if that's the right word) as well as elvish was a language of beauty and song and this language was harsh and stony. i think it's probably derived from an ancient orcish as the sounds and words are very similar.

02-28-2003, 05:00 PM	#6
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	Remember that Orcs had no unique language of their own; they perverted the languages of others, filling them with their foul curses. Perhaps the Black Speech is completely unique? Sauron doesn't seem like a lingual type, but if you are a Dark Lord, it might be handy to have your own language, if only to use it as a code.

05-28-2003, 06:11 PM	#13
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Considering how much Sauron enjoyed corrupting all that was good, could it be possible that the reason Black Speech sounds similar to Valarin is that Sauron wanted a corrupted version of Valarin for his slaves to use? In that way, he would have mocked Iluvatar, by saying, "Look, don't I resemble you? I'm doing exactly what you were." That would have greatly hurt Iluvatar and the Valar, which is probably what Sauron was going for. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

05-28-2003, 06:24 PM	#14
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	Hitting on the main question again, I was just reading the history of the black speech on Ardalambion a few moments ago and I found this: "Where did the vocabulary of the Black Speech come from? Surely Sauron had no more "love of words or things" than his servants had, and one might well think that he simply invented words arbitrarily. This may be true in some cases, but it appears that he also picked words from many sources, even the Elvish languages: "The word uruk that occurs in the Black Speech, devised (it is said) by Sauron to serve as a lingua franca for his subjects, was probably borrowed by him from the Elvish tongues of earlier times" (WJ:390). Uruk may be similar to Quenya urco, orco or Sindarin orch, but it is identical to the ancient Elvish form uruk (variants urku, uruku, whence Q urco, and urkô, whence perhaps S orch). But how could Sauron know Primitive Quendian? Was he the one who took care of the Elves Morgoth captured at Cuiviénen, and perhaps even responsible for the "genetic engineering" that transformed them into Orcs? As a Maia, he would easily have interpreted their tongue (WJ:406). To the first Elves, Morgoth and his servants would be urukî or "horrors", for the original meaning of the word was that vague and general, and Sauron may have delighted in telling the captured Elves that they were to become urukî themselves. In his mind, the word evidently stuck. But there were also other sources for Black Speech vocabulary. The word for "ring" was nazg, very similar to the final element in the Valarin word mâchananaškâd "the Doom-ring" (WJ:401, there somewhat differently spelt). Being a Maia, Sauron would know Valarin; it could indeed be his "mothertongue", to use the only term available. If it seems blasphemous to suggest that the tongue of the Gods may have been an ingredient in Sauron's Black Speech, "full of harsh and hideous sounds and vile words", it should be remembered that according to Pengolodh, "the effect of Valarin upon Elvish ears was not pleasing" (WJ:398). Morgoth, technically being a Vala, must have known Valarin (or at least picked it up during the ages he was captive in Valinor). According to LR:178 he taught it to his slaves in a "perverted" form. If so, Valarin naškâd "ring" may have produced nazg in one Orkish dialect of the Second Age, from which Sauron took it."(www.ardalmbion.com) So I guess it has it's roots in Elvish and Valarin. That is of course if you rely wholeheartedly upon Ardalambion as a viable source of information. I myself do. ~Scott __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

06-20-2003, 10:00 PM	#15
Baran Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mordor/Lothlorien Posts: 71	Scott, it is wise to read the thread before you post.

06-30-2003, 12:05 AM	#16
BobTheGrey Guest Posts: n/a	I always thought the elves were upset because the dark tongue was being spoken in *their* home. The people of Middle Earth seem to place great importance on what is spoken where and when. They refuse to talk about evil things at night (LotR:FotR The Shadow of the Past). Another example of this preoccupation with the power speech is more closely related to the subject. Gandalf says in the same chapter that he "will not utter here "(in the shire)" speech of Mordor. I think in their minds it spoils a land and brings evil over it to speak words of such an evil origin in a land as yet untouched by evil. However I might be wrong. Feel free to correct me. [ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: BobTheGrey ]

07-05-2003, 10:28 PM	#17
turin64 Guest Posts: n/a	hey, don`t forget that Morgoth not Sauron started the orcs and such, they were his slaves he was above them and they like so many cultures on earth probably created their own language and with the vulgarnis of them and their language it would quickly be dispised to hear.