Land of the Undying? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

01-09-2002, 05:04 PM

Is there any book that talks about this land? What is it?

Dwarin Thunderhammer · 01-09-2002, 05:21 PM

Aman, the "Undying land" is the land that is inhabited by the Ainur and the Maia (with a few exceptions). A great meny elves dwell there too.

It used to be an island over the western sea. However after Ar-Phazron's rebellion it was taken off the face of the earth t be somewhere outside of middle earth.

All this information is in the silmarillion, which I believe is the book you are looking for.

Elrian · 01-09-2002, 11:02 PM

The Silmarillion is the best place to find out about it, also there are a few threads in here that talk about it too.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 01-10-2002, 12:45 AM

Quote:

It used to be an island over the western sea. However after Ar-Phazron's rebellion it was taken off the face of the earth t be somewhere outside of middle earth.

It wasn't actually in Middle-Earth. Middle Earth is one continent on the face of the world of Arda -- our 'Earth'.
Aman, the main body of the Undying Lands, is the oher continent, and similarly sized. I think it's still in the world, only there is a sort of enchantment around it to prevent Men from entering.

Elrian · 01-10-2002, 01:22 AM

I remember something about after Numenor attacked the west, the Valar laid down their gaurd and Eru removed the Undying Lands from the confines of the world. Something like that. I think the enchantment was the protection it had prior to that.

Inziladun · 01-10-2002, 01:35 AM

Quote:

...the land of Aman and Eressëa of the Eldar were taken away and removed beyond the reach of Men forever....And the world was diminished, for Valinor and Eressëa were taken from it into the realm of hidden things.

'The world was diminished' certainly suggests the Undying Lands were no longer physically a part of the world after the Downfall.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 01-10-2002, 04:42 AM

If it wasn't in the world, where else would it be? Perhaps it was still in the world from the point of view of those who dwelled there, but not from the point of view of Men in ME. If you follow me. Sort of another dimension.

***Mithadan*** · 01-10-2002, 08:34 AM

Aman and Tol Eressea were indeed removed from the world and can only be reached via the Straight Road whereas all other "roads" on Earth are "curved", i.e. a ship can only circle the globe unless it enters the Straight Road. Elves entered the Straight Road in specially hallowed ships which departed at dusk. The ships of men could enter the Straight Road only via some unusual chance or fate, if at all. In Letters, JRRT goes on to say that once in the West, there is no return to Middle Earth except with the assistance of the Valar.

Telchar · 01-10-2002, 09:20 AM

I always imagine Arda before as a big disc or pancake, where Aman is in the uttermost West. Around this disc there were the Outer ocean which was made a globe of water (Aman touched the outer ocean in the West. After the Downfall of Numenor every part of the pancake except Aman was bent to a globe admidst the 'englobing' Outer Ocean. Aman remained in the excact same position as it always had been only now it was 'hidden' in come veil of enchantment. (If it hadn't Aman woulc look like a Very Very BIG continent floating casually in the air - a sight mst men wouldn't be able to cope with - so to reduce the number of mental problems on 'earth' it was 'hidden'... ) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Cirdan the Shipwright · 01-10-2002, 05:35 PM

The world (according to Tolkien) did start as a disk and had it's form changed. The Undying lands were absolutely removed from the physical world (not just hidden as it was in the First & Second Ages).

- Cirdan / Maglor

Elrian · 01-10-2002, 11:54 PM

The undying lands were removed beyond the circles of the world.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 01-11-2002, 12:40 AM

Exactly. Beyond the circles of the world, but not the straights of the world.

Quote:

a ship can only circle the globe unless it enters the Straight Road.

If it enters the Straight Road, it enters another dimension within this world, I should say.

To the Valar, the Undying Lands are still within the World. If Valinor is in the middle of the Atlantic, say, and a ship sets out west from it, it would reach the West coast of Europe or Africa, as long as the Valar consented it be so. Otherwise the ship would inexplicably find itself heading back towards Valinor again. (This is my theory.) But if a ship of Men set out on a path that would bring it straight to Valinor, then it would travel a 'bent path', perhaps around the Undying Lands or right through them without ever knowing they were there. Satellite images don't pick them up, similar to the way a vampire cannot be seen in a mirror. But from Valinor itself the story is different.
Do you catch my meaning?

01-09-2002, 05:04 PM	#1
Jeshira Guest Posts: n/a	Land of the Undying? Is there any book that talks about this land? What is it?

01-09-2002, 05:21 PM	#2
Dwarin Thunderhammer Khazad-Doomed Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: The Green Dragon Posts: 182	Aman, the "Undying land" is the land that is inhabited by the Ainur and the Maia (with a few exceptions). A great meny elves dwell there too. It used to be an island over the western sea. However after Ar-Phazron's rebellion it was taken off the face of the earth t be somewhere outside of middle earth. All this information is in the silmarillion, which I believe is the book you are looking for. __________________ “Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd aimênu!” Come visit The Rohan RPG! The only RPG to fanfic on the downs! Without law there can be no freedom. Without justice there can be no law.

01-09-2002, 11:02 PM	#3
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	The Silmarillion is the best place to find out about it, also there are a few threads in here that talk about it too. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

01-10-2002, 01:22 AM	#5
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	I remember something about after Numenor attacked the west, the Valar laid down their gaurd and Eru removed the Undying Lands from the confines of the world. Something like that. I think the enchantment was the protection it had prior to that. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

01-10-2002, 08:34 AM	#8
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,314	Aman and Tol Eressea were indeed removed from the world and can only be reached via the Straight Road whereas all other "roads" on Earth are "curved", i.e. a ship can only circle the globe unless it enters the Straight Road. Elves entered the Straight Road in specially hallowed ships which departed at dusk. The ships of men could enter the Straight Road only via some unusual chance or fate, if at all. In Letters, JRRT goes on to say that once in the West, there is no return to Middle Earth except with the assistance of the Valar. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

01-10-2002, 04:42 AM	#7
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	If it wasn't in the world, where else would it be? Perhaps it was still in the world from the point of view of those who dwelled there, but not from the point of view of Men in ME. If you follow me. Sort of another dimension.

01-10-2002, 09:20 AM	#9
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	I always imagine Arda before as a big disc or pancake, where Aman is in the uttermost West. Around this disc there were the Outer ocean which was made a globe of water (Aman touched the outer ocean in the West. After the Downfall of Numenor every part of the pancake except Aman was bent to a globe admidst the 'englobing' Outer Ocean. Aman remained in the excact same position as it always had been only now it was 'hidden' in come veil of enchantment. (If it hadn't Aman woulc look like a Very Very BIG continent floating casually in the air - a sight mst men wouldn't be able to cope with - so to reduce the number of mental problems on 'earth' it was 'hidden'... ) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

01-10-2002, 05:35 PM	#10
Cirdan the Shipwright Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 52	The world (according to Tolkien) did start as a disk and had it's form changed. The Undying lands were absolutely removed from the physical world (not just hidden as it was in the First & Second Ages). - Cirdan / Maglor

01-10-2002, 11:54 PM	#11
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	The undying lands were removed beyond the circles of the world. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~