Hurin and despair

[Lalaith]

There's been something troubling me ever since Lindil told me about the 'other' version of Hurin's end and the ruin of Doriath (in that the version in the Sil. is in fact Christopher and not JRR Tolkien.
In the professor's original, Hurin is not soothed by Melian when he comes with harsh words before Thingol's throne, but continues to rage around, causing indirect destruction to all around him and finally throwing himself into a river.
Now, I am no theologian but I'm pretty sure that despair is considered the worst of mortal sins and that Catholicism is especially hot on this point. To have Hurin die in mistaken pride and despair is then, according to Tolkien's beliefs, condemning him to damnation in the afterlife. This is worse even than the terrible death of Turin, who although he took his own life, had reached some kind of understanding of events before his death.
Considering Hurin's extraordinary loyalty, courage and steadfastness, this seems *very* hard and grim a conclusion.
Does anyone if there are any records of Tolkien's own thoughts on Hurin's end, and what literary function he was portraying? Or is the tale of Hurin perhaps an expression of Tolkien's bleakest and most pessimistic side?

[davem]

Don't know if its relevant, but I think Tolkien's comment on Frodo's 'failure' comes in. Tolkien basically, as I understand it, says that you have to judge the individual on their original intention, & what they had to face, before you judge them as 'failing'.
In the end, Frodo did fail in his quest to destroy the ring, but as Tolkien points out, no-one could have suceeded, as the task, & what Frodo had had to go through simply to get the ring to the fire, was astounding enough.
To turn to Hurin, He had been slowly destroyed at the hands of Morgoth for, what, over thirty years. His mind was virtually destroyed. He was seeing the world & events through Morgoth's eyes, & Morgoth's 'vision' was essentially so corrupted that he couldn't see objectively, even if he'd chosen to.
I don't think Tolkien is making any judgement on Hurin. Maybe he's making a comment on how even the greatest of us can be corrupted, against our will.
Having said that, all the family seem to suffer excessively from pride, & it could be argued that it was a case of Morgoth using that, rather than 'cursing' Turin, or the rest of his family with 'bad luck'. One does wonder whether that family was going to suffer in much the same way as they did even of Morgoth hadn't got directly involved.
Perhaps Hurin's 'despair' was the inevitable effect of such a proud man being so long impotent. If anything Hurin's pride wasn't humbled by the tragedy of his family, it was twisted into hate, contempt & despair.
I don't think Tolkien was so much interested in holding Hurin up for condemnation as in showing the effect of pride.
But then again, I'm not sure Tolkien saw his 'heroes' in a 'Christian' heroic light. They aren't Christian heroes, They're Northern' Pagan heroes, along the lines of Beowulf. Maybe Tolkien is making some point about men in the absence' of Christianity.
Anyway, all that just 'occured' to me, & poured out as I wrote. Maybe its complete nonsense [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Numenorean]

Having said that, all the family seem to suffer excessively from pride, & it could be argued that it was a case of Morgoth using that, rather than 'cursing' Turin, or the rest of his family with 'bad luck'

I like what your saying here, but after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad what else did Morwen, Turin and Hurin have to keep them going but pride in their House and people? Turins pride and passion cause him and others ill, but pity is never far from his mind either. Perhaps the Pride factor was crucial to Morgoths curse, but it may have also been crucial to Hurin, Morwen, Turin and Neinor surviving as long as they all did under such dire circumstances?

Considering Hurin's extraordinary loyalty, courage and steadfastness, this seems *very* hard and grim a conclusion.

I agree Lalaith, it seems like the grimest most shattering conclusion anyone could have. And this bitter despair was Hurins 'reward' for some of the most heroic acts ever written, such soulcrushing bleakness after so much hope before the Nirnaeth, moves me everytime. But like Davem said:

I don't think Tolkien is making any judgement on Hurin. Maybe he's making a comment on how even the greatest of us can be corrupted, against our will.

[Aiwendil]

To have Hurin die in mistaken pride and despair is then, according to Tolkien's beliefs, condemning him to damnation in the afterlife.

Even if Tolkien intended Hurin's despair to be some kind of moral flaw, I don't think he would have been condemned. The afterlife in Tolkien's legendarium is not quite like that in Catholicism - there is no hell (as far as anyone knows); all humans simply "seek elsewhither" and leave the world.

[davem]

Well, OK, pity is never far from Turin's heart, but generally his pity is directed at his own victims! ('Pity' spelt 'Oops!)
I can't help feeling that what we see in Hurin's family is the seed of what sprouted in Numenor. Its ofermod, overweening/reckless pride (see the essay in Tolkien's Legendarium, Turin's Ofermod).
Pride is the central motivation of the deeds of Hurin, Turin & Morwen, less so, but still present in Nienor.
Maybe it was their pride that enabled them to survive so long, but considering what they did with the time they had, maybe it would have been better for them if they hadn't lived as long as they did.
I think the core issue Tolkien is exploring is the difference between pride & ofermod, natural, necessary, self respect & hubris. The whole family pushed PRIDE to such an extreme it destroyed them. Turin's constant desire to take charge in every situation, when he knows he's been 'cursed' by Morgoth, when every time he's had power he's brought about disaster, including the death of people he loves, & yet, every time he gets the opportunity, he's again taking over. He never learns. That's his curse, bloody minded stubborness, refusal to learn what a proud idiot he actually is. That doesn't mean his story isn't a great tragedy - it is, but maybe mainly because its self inflicted. He uses the cop out 'the 'devil' made me do it - it wasn't me that killed those people, it was Morgoth. Don't blame me, its this curse!' But knowing he was cursed, that everything he did would be corrupted, why did he just go on trying to take over.
Er, this has become a rant about Turin. Sorry, completely off thread.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"Well, OK, pity is never far from Turin's heart, but generally his pity is directed at his own victims! ('Pity' spelt 'Oops!)"


[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Loved that!

IMO the Curse of Morgoth works through the weaknesses of its victims. Morwen is certainly proud - it is foolish pride that keeps her from accepting Thingol and Melian's offer of refuge, but also false hope of Hurin's return.

Turin's main fault is less 'ofermod', though he has that, than self-pity. He's so absorbed in his own griefs and wrongs and the desire to avenge them that he has no attention to spare for other people. Though it must be admitted he can be kind on on the rare occasions he does notice somebody else's problems.

I also think he's suffering from a need to 'live up' to his father. And Hurin, by successfully defying Morgoth's power in his own stronghold, has set a standard no Man can match.

Add in a hot temper, which he may have gotten from his father, and poor impulse control and you've got a recipe for repeated disaster. In all fairness though, Turin does seem somewhat chastened during his stay in Brethil. Certainly he shows more caution than he has previously, if not more sensitivity.

As for Hurin, I've never seen pride as the motivator for his rampage but rather grief and anger, and a failure to realize he's being manipulated by Morgoth until Melian opens his eyes.

BTW if I recall correctly all versions of his story end with Hurin disappearing. His death by suicide is apparently a storyteller's guess since it is prefaced by 'it is said'. Personally I've never believed it, not of Hurin Thalion.

[Lalaith]

Davem, your points are not off topic at all as far as I'm concerned. The whole pride/despair issue is important through the whole of Narn i Hin Hurin, and you can't talk about Hurin without talking about the fates of his children. And when I was studying such things in the dim and distant past, I seem to remember that pride and despair were considered two sides of the same coin, in mediaeval and renaissance literature at least. I agree that Tolkien intended his heroes to be pagan ones, but at the same time, while I am in general not one of those who see biblical and Christian themes in the stories, I do think that Tolkien's own moral beliefs must have come into this tale somewhere. Davem, your point about the showing the lack of Christianity is a very interesting one and I shall mull over it.
As far as Hurin and his children were concerned, I don't think they suffered from pride until everything else was taken away from them.

I found this excerpt, btw, although I'm not sure from whence it originates. It's about the Last Battle and the slaying of Morgoth:

In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwë, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the Black Sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
...no Man it [the prophecy of Mandos] names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar

So Turin is considered blessed, but not Hurin.
Morwen, the point that concerned me was that Melian opening the eyes of Hurin was apparently an invention of Christopher Tolkien. In the professor's own version he storms off, still in a state of deception.
On the subject of compassion, I believe the Silmarillion describes Turin as being easily moved to pity, and taking after his father in this respect. Morwen, meanwhile, was as hard on others as she was on herself.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Unfortunately we will never know what the Professor intended to happen to Hurin in Doriath as he stopped writing the 'Wanderings of Hurin' after the destruction of Brethil, (in which it must be said in all fairness the conflicts and desires of assorted Haladin are as much to blame as the actions of Hurin himself).

In an earlier version of the Annals of Beleriand, (Lost Road) he has Hurin departing Doriath with bitter words, but by whom and directed to whom is unclear, (according to the earliest version in Lost Tales the bitter words were between 'Urin' and 'Tinwelint' and quite frankly did neither credit).

What is really interesting is in all versions Hurin's final fate remains a mystery to the Elves.

[davem]

I think pride is a central issue, though. Hurin 'proudly' defies Morgoth, the most powerful being in Arda. That effectively starts the tragedy.
You can go right back to Feanor. So many of the central events & themes of the Legendarium seem to come down to that. We have to remember that for a Christian pride is one of the seven deadly sins. In the Magnificat we have the line 'He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.'
This is central, I feel. Tolkien never esteems pride, & always sees it 'going before a fall'.
Pride is always a sin for Tolkien, so whenever I read of a character displaying pride, I'm expecting disaster to follow.

[Lalaith]

Morwen, thank you for that input. I've only read some of the Lost Tales so it's good to have background on the development of the story. And yes, it is interesting that the fate of Hurin is a mystery.
Davem, I believe you're right about pride, this was not just one of the seven deadly sins, it was the chief one.
But what of my excerpt about Turin? Does anyone know when it was written and in what context? And is Turin being 'accounted one of the sons of the Valar' somehow linked to Tuor being 'alone among men accounted one of the Firstborn'?

[Morwen Tindomerel]

The 'accounted among the Valar' thing is from the earliest versions of the Legend in Lost Tales, and IMO makes little sense.

I mean *what* has Turin done to earn such a privilege? having failed to master himself and his doom and killed himself in a fit of despair, (mortal sin that is). Indications are Tolkien dropped that particular concept as his vision of the Valar, the Fates of Men, etc. evolved.

However later versions do retain the 'legend' of Turin returning from death, (Halls of Mandos or beyond the Circles of the World) and slaying Morgoth at the End. I find that hard to buy too, but maybe Turin improves after a few thousand millenia of purgatory.

As for the issue of pride; Frodo also answers Faramir 'proudly' to Sam's, and apparently Tolkien's approval. I think in this case, as in Hurin's, 'proudly' is a description of their comportment, expressing both courage and determination to resist, not of of their inner state which must have been one of controlled terror.

According to my Catholic Dictionary the sin of pride expresses itself as contempt for lawful authority and for others. Hurin shows no sign of any such failing previous to his captivity, his behavior afterward is more questionable but I believe rooted in a bitter, (and not entirely unjustified) sense of betrayal rather than 'pride'.

This is not to say Hurin is entirely innocent of wrong. He is certainly obsessed with vengeance, which however understandable given his circumstances still does him no credit.

[ May 09, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Lalaith]

I personally find it hard to forgive Turgon for not letting Hurin into Gondolin.
"Remember the Fen of Serech.."
Precisely.

[Findegil]

To the topic in general I think that Húrin was never condemned. When we look at the first Version of the story in The Lost Tales than Úrin and Maevin come to the halls of Mandos and learn that both their children's were not admitted to enter. Then they plead for them. Which means clearly that they themselves were admitted to enter.

I personally can well believe in the despair of Húrin and his suicide. But that makes for me the scene in Menegroth were Melian opened his eyes absurd. If Húrin could stand that eye opener (reconsidering his faults - specially the betrayal of Turgon by shouting his name in the face of the entrance of Gondolin) than he would have outlived any further blow. (What can be more terrible, than to understand that in a small moment of despair you have made totally senseless all the dome you brought upon you and your kin?) So for me Húrin in the end learned what he had done just before his death. By which way that happened we are not told. But we may guess. All that follows is of course not even hinted in the sources, but her it goes: For me Húrin left Thingol with bitter words. Obviously he wandered to the west. What could he have wanted by the see? He was deeply learned the lore of Gondolin, so may be he did know about the conversation of Ulmo and Turgon in Vinyamar. If so we may consider that he walk to Vinyamar to find the armour left there to get entrance to Gondolin by it. When he reached Vinyamar the armour was long gone since his nephew Tour had taken it. In that moment, I would think, he recognised his cry in Dimbar as delivering the position of Gondolin to Morgoth. And since Ulmo had already sent a warning to Gondolin, he believed that he had brought ruin upon the city and the King for whom he and his kin had so greatly suffered.
That for me would be the moment of ultimate despair. And Húrins death in the see would follow it immediately since the see is not fare.

Posted by Lalaith:

I personally find it hard to forgive Turgon for not letting Hurin into Gondolin.
"Remember the Fen of Serech.."
Precisely.

Well, yes that is true for Turgon. But if we consider the right sequence of events than Húrin search entrance to Gondolin before he had found Morwen, which would have made her death even more sad. And in addition Húrin left a group of Men from Hithlum that had taken him as lord and helped him to survive in the wild with out even a word.

Respectfully
Findegil

[GlingleglingleglingleFairy]

quote:
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To have Hurin die in mistaken pride and despair is then, according to Tolkien's beliefs, condemning him to damnation in the afterlife.
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Why is religion even relavant here? I see no sin in Hurin's pride, and surely to "condemn him to damnation" after all his despair is not very Christian. (not that I would really know, though.) I think Tolkien wrote abuot Hurin to show how real everyone is, and how we aren't perfect.

[davem]

OK, Morwen, but when Frodo answers Faramir 'proudly', maybe Tolkien is making a ststement about the effect of the Ring on him.
My feeling is that, as Tolkien stated, every word he wrote in LotR was thought about & considered. I think whenever he used the word pride he was making a point.
The more I think about the story of the family of Hurin, the more I see it as all coming down to pride. The whole family clearly believe they know best in every situation. They refuse advice, from whoever gives it. They refuse to accept their loss of power & prestige. That doesn't make them 'bad', but it does mean they completely mess up the lives of everyone they come into contact with.
Also, as far as the Christian dimension goes. Tolkien was a Christian, his world view was shaped by Christianity, & his value system was shaped & determined by it. For him, pride wasn't wrong just because his church told him it was, so that he could invent a secondary world where it didn't apply. He believed pride was a sin, & always, in whatever world, it would bring pain & death.
The Narn is a tragedy. The whole family suffer terribly, but I think Tolkien is clearly saying that a good part of what they suffered was brought on by themselves.
Look at Hurin, a desolate, lost, bereaved old man, but still swaggering around, demanding respect (which he deserved). I think Tolkien is constantly coming back to the issue of pride, right through the Legendarium. From Feanor down to Boromir & Saruman.
I think its also significant that Hurin's family is destroyed by the two greatest symbols of pride - Morgoth & Glaurung, as if they're confronting their own 'sin' writ large, & being destroyed by it.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Hurin is not quite in his right mind, how can he be after twenty-eight years as Morgoth's prisoner? *And* he is definitely shadowed, not evil in himself but carrying Morgoth's malice with him and infecting others, (Tolkien himself says this several times).

Morgoth's curse works by exacerbating faults and failings that are already there. Morwen's foolish pride, Turin's violent impulsive temper, and above all Hurin's grief and anger over the fate of his family.

It is however significant that Hurin is still open to reason. Manthor's kindness and sympathy calm him and make him rational again. Had they been able to continue their conversation events in Brethil may have turned out quite differently.

Unlike his son the fault is not all on Hurin's side. He *is* insulted and mistreated, even the people of Brethil think their Chieftain's behavior outrageous. Yes he could have shown a little more reason and restraint but given what he's been through that's expecting too much even of a Hurin Thalion.

[Lalaith]

Given names are important indicators I think. Hurin is "the Steadfast" - not a name that conjures up images of pride, hubris or ofurmod. Turin in contrast is not 'steadfast', he changes his name very frequently.
One thing Tolkien did, which the heroic literature he was imitating often did not, was give us emotional and developmental hinterland. Turin's childhood was hideously traumatic and his mother cold and distant, and quite incapable of offering the little boy the comfort he needed. The adult that comes out of these experiences feels very convincing, psychologically speaking.
Incidently I do somehow feel very fond of Morwen despite her shortcomings. Hard times produce hard people.

[Numenorean]

I mean *what* has Turin done to earn such a privilege? having failed to master himself and his doom

Morwen, I always felt that the core of Turins being was most poingnantly revealed during his childhood. His handing over of his fine Elf-wrought dagger birthday present to Sador the lame woodwright, and his words of justification to Hurin & Morwen offered what I beleive the truest indicator of the kind of man he would have turned into had doom and Morgoth not corrupted his path:
U.T.(P.64)

'Do you then scorn your father's gift?' said Morwen; and again Turin answered: 'No, but I love Sador, and feel pity for him.'
Then Hurin said: 'All three gifts were your own to give, Turin: love, pity, and the knife the least.'

Turins actions and words up to the eve of the Nirnaeth show the foundations of a wise, thoughtful and caring heir to the House of Hador, despite the bitter loss of Lalaith he was still compassionate and uncorrupted at this time.
The effect of the post-Arnoediad situation on Turins character development must have been massive, not just psychologically. Aside from the mental trauma and the utter fall of Hador, maybe the Doom that Morgoth laid on him had a real and physical role to play in Turins mindset aswell?
Perhaps Turins vaunted elevation to be counted amongst the Sons of the Valar at the End, was a sense of natural justice from JRRT? The marring of Turins innocence and potential by Morgoth is a crime so great (reminiscent of Feanors marring?) that maybe there just had to be a reckoning, as it denied not just Turin but all Men a noble and Great Lord. These are just some random thoughts I've had as I've re-read the Narn over the past couple of days, so I apologise if this sound a bit flakey and off-topic.

His death by suicide is apparently a storyteller's guess since it is prefaced by 'it is said'. Personally I've never believed it, not of Hurin Thalion.

Me neither Morwen, he was hardcore, steadfast. I think if he was going to 'do himself in' He would've done it by the graves of Turin and Morwen, but he didn't!

[ May 11, 2003: Message edited by: Numenorean ]

[davem]

Actually, I can see Hurin killing himself, but not out of despair as such, more out of an attitude of 'I'll show them!'.
For all the tragedy of the family, there is something self destructive about them all. Maybe a result of living in such times. But then, we find the same thing in the Rohirrim - 'Death, Death, Death, Death take us all.' As if they've decided that if you can't live how you want then you'd rather just be dead. But where is the Christian ideal of surrender to the will of God?

[Guinevere]

Thank you, Lalaith, for bringing up this topic!
This has also bothered me ever since I read the Silmarillion.
I have read all your contributions with the greatest interest and agree especially with the opinions of Morwen Tindomerel, the Numenorean and Lalaith.

I agree that Turin (and Morwen) in some measure brings trouble on himself by his pride and rashness, but I cannot see such characterflaws in Hurin. He is only valiant and loyal and has in no way deserved such a terrible fate and finally to be forsaken by everyone and end his own life in complete hopelessness and despair.

After having read Narn i hin Hurin where the characters are more developped, the tragedy and injustice of Hurins fate touches me even more.

What I keep asking myself is why Tolkien wrote such a discouraging story? Is it, as Lalaith suggested, an expression of his bleakest and most pessimistic side?

It's especially the contrast to the mood in LotR that strikes me. In LotR you get the comforting feeling that there is a meaning behind it all, a merciful prividence. The sacrifices that are made there are not meaningless, and courage, loyalty and pity are rewarded. It's just this balance between melancholy and hope that makes me love LotR so much.

How can the same author write something so hopeless??

Even in the Silmarillion the Valar interfere on some occasions with mercy (As in the case of Maedhros, or Beren and Luthien etc) But there is no pity or mercy, not even a sign of hope for Hurin who in my eyes should have deserved the greatest reward for his steadfastness before Morgoth.

Well, I guess there is no answer to these questions. It really is a pity Tolkien never completed his work!
All the same, it was a comfort to see that other people have similar thoughts about it (and can put it much better into words than I.)

[lindil]

The trouble for Hurin [and thus his family] began when instead of holding his tounge against Morgoth he 'dares to mock him'.

Hurin spoke to Morgoth with pride and understandably defiance, but silence would have seved him better even though ti would have been less 'emotionally satisfying'.

But his especial flaunting of Morgoth's dissipation and ever-decreasing power, was I think foolish, even though true.

This was sure to provoke a contest of wills and power and Hurin was sure to lose.
And he did. And not just him, but ultimately his family, Gondolin, Doriath, Brethil and Nargothrond!

It all flowed from his feeling a need to defy Morgoth to his face.

As for Hurin's end I have always seen Melian's words [which I take as canon despite their secondary origin] to him opening his eyes and for a final moment softening his heart, as evidence of the 'light of Melian' and it's effects on the last part of his sopul still open to truth, but he willfully chose to leave Menegroth and Melian's influence and then was cast back into his old despair, and doubtless morgoth was aiding this from afar, so his suicide is like his son's, in knowledge of the truth but so crushed and pained by Morgoth's curse and it's devastating effects on all he has known that he is left with no hope. In a sad twist he forgets the very words of hope in the Valar he pridefully cast into Morgoth's teeth.

To me the narn/Hurin saga is the inverse of Beren and Luthien and the Ring.

In the latter, love and a humble sense of duty and true friendship and honor win the day and overcome impossible odds. But with the Narn pride and self-will rules at every critical juncture.

Morwen did not obey Hurin and flee right away. Turin did not follow Melian's nor mablung's nor Beleg's gracious advice in the Narn. Nor Gwindor's etc...

In a sense the Narn overtook the rest of the Simarillion in detail and scope and the rest never caught back up, we are left seeing most of the Narn in vivid detail, especially Hurin in Brethil where the tension, irony and palpability of Morgoth's curse becomes more visceral than anything else JRRT wrote.

So Hurin I think did cast himself into the sea, or perhaps just sat staring at it till he died and fell into it.

Because of his pride coupled with the curse, he could bnot simply ask Eru to forgive him his follies and betrayels of all he held dearest [Turgon especially]. Even his wrath at Brethil's supposed affront to Morwen was stronger than his desire to see her buried in a fitting manner, this is clearly shown in his confrontation with the Haldad.

------------

Great thread Lailath.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Excuse me?

Don't get me wrong, I like Beren as well as anybody but his bearing towards Thingol was *anything* but humble! and he most certainly did mock him. Mind you he was provoked and his reaction quite justified, (he isn't the one being prejudiced and unreasonable!) but he's no plaster saint.

I mean maybe Hurin defies Morgoth to his face but Beren deliberately walks into his stronghold to fulfill an incredibly over-ambitious and unrealistic vow. Not to mention deciding to confront his hostile father-in-law without a Silmaril. If Hurin Thalion is 'proud' then so is Beren Erchamion.

Hurin earned Morgoth's enmity by successfully resisting his will. What he said didn't make any difference, that resistance alone was enough to provoke the Dark Lord. But surely you're not suggesting he should have given in?

[Kuruharan]

The trouble for Hurin [and thus his family] began when instead of holding his tounge against Morgoth he 'dares to mock him'.

Hurin spoke to Morgoth with pride and understandably defiance, but silence would have seved him better even though ti would have been less 'emotionally satisfying'.

Beggin' your pardon, but it seems likely that Morgoth would have cursed Hurin and company no matter what he did. Hurin was an important individual who had (or Morgoth thought he had) something that he wanted (the location of Gondolin). Silence on this matter would probably have infuriated the already venomous Morgoth just as much as taunting. The results could possibly have been the same. Hurin's troubles really started when he was taken alive in the first place.

[Aiwendil]

One thing I like about Tolkien is that, for all that modernist critics may bewail his absolutist view of good and evil, there are many shades of grey in his works. Even in action or speech that is wrong or at fault, there is often some element of right or truth. A prime example of this subtlety is the curse upon the children of Hurin.

The prime example of this ambiguity is in the tension between fate and free will that operates in the Narn (it's similar to the tension in LotR between internal evil and external evil). Nearly all of Turin's misfortunes seem, on the surface, to be solely the result of his own actions and choices. If we were given the Narn without the introduction concerning Morgoth's curse, we could very well imagine that Turin is simply a tragic hero along the lines of, say, Hamlet - that is, that his misfortunes are all the result of an internal flaw. The story would work well enough this way.

But we know that there is something else at work. We know that the tragedies in Turin's life are the result, in some way, of Morgoth's curse. This, of course, doesn't invalidate the fact that Turin's ills are the results of his own decisions. But neither does Turin's weakness invalidate the controlling power of Morgoth's curse.

Hurin's defiance of Morgoth is a scene wrought with similar subtlety. We start with some fairly predictable stuff - Morgoth declares himself to be the Elder King, Hurin does not believe him, etc. Hurin scores something of a victory with "You are not the Lord of Men, and shall not be, though all Arda and Menel fall in your dominion . . ." Morgoth's reply doesn't seem to quite meet the challenge. It is now already a very poignant scene with real force within Tolkien's mythology. But it is the end of the scene that I find the most deeply affecting, and the most chilling. Morgoth: "You shall see and you shall confess that I do not lie," followed by Morgoth's setting Hurin upon Thangorodrim and cursing his kin. The chilling part is that, for all the valour and real wisdom in Hurin's words, Morgoth is right. Morgoth really can curse Hurin's kin; he really can come at Hurin through them; he really does seem to be, in some sense, master of the fates of Arda. None of this invalidates the truth in Hurin's words, and the rightness of Hurin's defiance; but neither does Hurin's defiance invalidate Morgoth's power.

I think that this is a very Norse result. One of the things that seems to have attracted Tolkien to northern mythology is that the world was doomed to end in catastrophe, in the Ragnarok; not only was final victory not assured for the heroes, there was no chance of final victory. But in spite of this certainty of defeat, the heroes still did not give up; they persisted in fighting evil despite the certain knowledge that they could not win. Of course, the situation is quite different in Tolkien; but on some level, I think we can observe the same thing in the constant struggle of his characters against "the long defeat".

Lindil - I'm also not so sure that Morgoth's curse was a direct result of Hurin's words. Morgoth was primarily interested in the location of Gondolin, and he mentions the possibility of coming at all Hurin's "accursed house" early in the conversation. I also don't see excessive pride in Hurin's words. He only asserts his faith in the Valar, and that Morgoth is not the lord of Arda. I don't think he is at fault in his defiance. But I do think that it is the same tendency toward defiance, the same stubbornness, that causes Turin do make the wrong decision time after time, and Hurin as well, after his release.

I don't think that pride in itself is, within the Legendarium, a failing. The adjective is often used with no negative connotations. It is excessive pride that is a failing. But I think that the way in which excessive pride is a failing is slightly different from the way we in the modern world tend to see it. We often think of pride as a failing because it leads to arrogance, selfishness, or a false sense of superiority or entitlement. But I think that in Middle-earth (again probably influenced by Norse mythology) it is the overconfidence or foolhardiness that comes from pride that is the vice. This is why it is not contradictory for Turin to be both proud and filled with pity: pride and pity are not opposed. Turin's excessive pride consists in his overconfidence in his own abilities and, sometimes, unwillingness to accept aid. Along with this came a certain sense of duty. Because (as he thought) he could defy the might of Morgoth, he must defy it; hen Saeros insults Turin's kin, he feels the duty to defend them by retaliating against Saeros. But Hurin's pride, in his words to Morgoth, seems to be not to be excessive.

About the Narn being the inverse of Beren and Luthien and The Lord of the Rings - a very interesting idea and an apt comparison. Of course, there is honour and true friendship in the Narn. But whereas in The Lord of the Rings hope continually wins out over despair, in the Narn despair comes out of apparent hope.

Still (and in another example of Tolkien's subtlety), at every juncture in the Narn, though the wrong choices are made, those wrong choices seem reasonable, or at least understandable. Morwen does not immediately flee. But after all, she had no news of Hurin's death; what if he was still alive and free, and would return? We know that Morwen made the wrong decision, but we can see why and we can even sympathize with the decision. Turin makes a mockery of Saeros - clearly wrong. But Saeros did both insult his family and then attack him. We know that Turin's action is wrong, but at the same time part of us (well, part of me, at any rate) is glad to see Saeros get what was coming to him, as it were. We know that Turin's policy of open warfare is not the best strategy; yet his words in defence of it have force - ". . . victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only in what follow from it. But it is expedient also; for if you do nothing to halt him, all Beleriand will fall beneath his shadow before many years are passed, and then one by one he will smoke you out of your earths. And what then? A pitiable remnant will fly south and west, to cower on the shores of the Sea, caught between Morgoth and Ossë. Better then to win a time of glory, though it be shortlived; for the end will be no worse." His view is wrong, but his argument really does make sense. Moreover, just as with Morgoth's last words to Hurin, the things he asserts are true. All Beleriand does fall under Morgoth's shadow; one by one the Elves and Edain are smoked out of their hiding places; they do fly south and west, a pitiable remnant cowering on the shores of the sea. The only thing left out of his reckoning is Earendil - but how could he have predicted that? It's a microcosm of the whole long defeat/final hope situation: Morgoth's eventual victory = the certainty of the long defeat, Turin's defiance of him = the heroic resolve to fight evil in spite of the certainty of its final victory, Earendil = the final hope, lacking in Norse mythology but inherited in Tolkien from Christianity.

As for Hurin's end I have always seen Melian's words [which I take as canon despite their secondary origin] to him opening his eyes and for a final moment softening his heart, as evidence of the 'light of Melian' and it's effects on the last part of his sopul still open to truth, but he willfully chose to leave Menegroth and Melian's influence and then was cast back into his old despair, and doubtless morgoth was aiding this from afar, so his suicide is like his son's, in knowledge of the truth but so crushed and pained by Morgoth's curse and it's devastating effects on all he has known that he is left with no hope.

But Melian's healing words are not found in any of Tolkien's actual texts. As fitting as they seem, I don't take them as canon. Of course, there's no knowing how the story would have gone had The Wanderings of Hurin reached Doriath. The sense I get from Christopher's version is not that Hurin incorrectly leaves Menegroth and thus loses the light of Melian; rather, that he is freed entirely of Morgoth's spell, but now he understands fully what has happened and thus goes forth and kills himself - but as a free man. But none of Tolkien's versions have such a sugarcoated ending; though Hurin has never actually given in to Morgoth of his own will, he remains under the power of Morgoth's curse.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

You are forgetting the freedom of Men. Men are masters of their own fates and - in a certain ultimate sense more powerful than any Valar including the Dark Lord himself for Men can change the Music and alter the plans laid by the powers.

Turin signally fails to do this. The 'Master of Fate' *never* takes control of his destiny but lets himself be blown hither and thither by Morgoth's malice and his own passions. The most fatal of his errors is to listen to the deceptions of Glaurung and ignore the prophesy of his friend and benefactor Gwindor.

Dying Gwindor commands Turin to make amends for his role in the destruction of Nargothrond by saving Finduilas. Who, he predicts, will save Turin from his doom. And so she might have.

*Had* Turin followed duty and friendship instead of fear and suspicion and successfully rescued the princess and her fellow captives he would, naturally, have taken them to Doriath where he would have found his mother and sister safe and sound. And where, chastened and relieved, he might finally have been willing to acknowledge his errors and accept Melian's advice.

Hurin too lets his passions run away with him giving Morgoth's malice free reign. *BUT* unlike his son is capable of hearing reason and controlling himself. As I argue above had Manthor been able to complete his conversation with Hurin matters in Brethil would have turned out quite differently.

This is why I tend to accept Christopher's conclusion. If Hurin could be brought back to reason by Manthor how could Melian possibly fail? Nor do I believe he would then fall into suicidal despair.

No doubt he would bitterly regret his actions under the Shadow but he might well follow Manthor's advice and find some isolated place to live out the remainder of his days without bringing his curse on any one else or further bitterness on himself.

[Aiwendil]

The 'Master of Fate' *never* takes control of his destiny but lets himself be blown hither and thither by Morgoth's malice and his own passions.

But his failing is not like, for example, Hamlet's; it is not inaction. He does not let himself be blown about by Morgoth's malice. Indeed, he knows of the curse and is constantly struggling to escape it. It's just that he makes the wrong decisions toward that goal.

*Had* Turin followed duty and friendship instead of fear and suspicion

I don't think it's completely fair to characterize his two choices that way. It's not a simple matter of duty and friendship vs. fear and suspicion. His reason for going back to Hithlum is in fact a sense of duty and compassion for his family. His decision is not morally wrong; it is merely strategically wrong. Finduilas is the one at risk; she is the one that Turin has a chance to save. But he miscalculates, due to Glaurungs spell, and thinks that it would be more worthwhile to seek his mother and try to help her.

If Hurin could be brought back to reason by Manthor how could Melian possibly fail?

But Manthor did not remove the spell from Turin; he merely reasoned with him. In Christopher's version, Melian does more than simply reason with Hurin - she actually removes the darkness that Morgoth put upon him.

It just occurred to me that in JRRT's version, Hurin's suicide could very well be seen as having a heroic element; for in this way he finally ends Morgoth's control over him and ensures that no more evils will be wrought by him unwittingly. Indeed, he proves his words to Morgoth 28 years before: "Beyond the Circles of the World you shall not pursue those who refuse you."

[ October 15, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

It just occurred to me that in JRRT's version, Hurin's suicide could very well be seen as having a heroic element; for in this way he finally ends Morgoth's control over him and ensures that no more evils will be wrought by him unwittingly. Indeed, he proves his words to Morgoth 28 years before: "Beyond the Circles of the World you shall not pursue those who refuse you."

That is realy good point! It gives even more sense to Húrins daeth than only dispair when releasing what he had done. Now he realse what he had done and that he was used by Morgoth in a cunning way. And than he cries out: "You will no longer make use of me! There is a way for me to leave your domion for ever. I will go to the one that created us both. He shall judge me know - and you later!" (That's is clearly overdone - but it shows the direction.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Lalaith]

I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed reading all these brilliant posts, they've given me so many new insights.

In a sense the Narn overtook the rest of the Simarillion in detail and scope and the rest never caught back up,

Lindil, I think you're spot on there.
Aiwendil, your analysis is masterly, but I'd quibble with just one point. As I remember, there *was* hope and life after Ragnarok: Baldur and the sons of Odin and Thor were the new gods, and a new race of men sprang up from a man and a woman who had hidden themselves from the destruction.
You're right though, that the tale tackles the question of fighting evil even when the struggle is futile. I personally find Hurin's stand against Morgoth entirely admirable, but the fact remains that in the Narn, evil conquers - as it, unfortunately, often does in real life. What makes it particularly tragic is that both 'outer' and 'inner' evil triumph: Hurin's family are not just killed, but they are destroyed spiritually and psychologically as well. (Except perhaps Morwen)
Btw, I wonder if there is any parallel between Job and Hurin?

[Morwen Tindomerel]

A little indecision would have been a good thing in Turin's case. Decisive action, when they are inevitably wrong actions, is no virtue.

Turin's problem is he never stopped to *think*, for example to wonder how Glaurung could know about Morwen and Nienor's plight in the first place - much less to doubt the dragon's motives for telling him this. Turin's efforts to avoid his curse were limited to changing his name, not his attitude or his behavior.

Manthor makes Hurin calm down and *think* and begin to act rationally again. unfortunately Hardang ruins the effort by drugging Hurin so Manthor can't continue the treatment. Melian too simply talked to him reasonably and sympathetically, helping him to calm down and see things straight. I very much doubt she used any kind of power, and even if she did it would have been as useless on Hurin as it was on his son *unless* he were still open to the truth. Melian didn't 'heal' Hurin, she helped him heal himself.

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

And than he cries out: "You will no longer make use of me! There is a way for me to leave your domion for ever. I will go to the one that created us both. He shall judge me know - and you later!" (That's is clearly overdone - but it shows the direction.)

Yes, that's something like what I had in mind. Of course, it's quite likely that Tolkien never intended it that way. But still, the fact is that Hurin does escape Morgoth's dominion in death.

Lalaith wrote:

As I remember, there *was* hope and life after Ragnarok: Baldur and the sons of Odin and Thor were the new gods, and a new race of men sprang up from a man and a woman who had hidden themselves from the destruction.

Of course. It seems I need to brush up on my Norse mythology. But I thought Baldur was killed in the Ragnarok . . .

Morwen wrote:

A little indecision would have been a good thing in Turin's case. Decisive action, when they are inevitably wrong actions, is no virtue.

True. But my point was that Turin does struggle to escape the curse. His failure is not, in general, moral failure; rather it is very poor decision-making.

Turin's problem is he never stopped to *think*, for example to wonder how Glaurung could know about Morwen and Nienor's plight in the first place - much less to doubt the dragon's motives for telling him this.

But his failure to think was, in this case, a result of Glaurung's spell.

Turin's efforts to avoid his curse were limited to changing his name, not his attitude or his behavior.

That's a valid, if cynical, way of looking at it. But names have great significance in the Silmarillion. Turin believed that he could hide from fate by keeping his identity secret. As it turns out, he was wrong. But again, his failure came not from want of trying, but simply from choosing incorrectly how to go about escaping his fate. There was also a sense with each of his name changes (and particularly "Turambar") that he was giving up his past and trying to start a new life - but his past kept catching up with him. So I think there's more to it than a simple name change.

You are right though - what he should have changed was his behavior, not his name. Note, though, that he does in fact change his behavior in Brethil; for a time he does not go to war. Yet this does not defeat his curse either.

I very much doubt she used any kind of power, and even if she did it would have been as useless on Hurin as it was on his son *unless* he were still open to the truth. Melian didn't 'heal' Hurin, she helped him heal himself.

I always got the sense that it was some power of Melian that cleared Hurin's mind. But it's rather a moot point, I think, since this is not an authentic version of the story.

[ May 14, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Lalaith]

What was it someone said to him? "your fate lies in yourself, not in your name."
In fact, Turin's attempts to escape fate by constant name changes actually helped to ruin him. If he had kept his true name his mother and sister might have been aware of his whereabouts and the brother/sister marriage not come about.
Btw, slightly off topic but what about Turin's feelings towards Finduilas? I always interpreted them as friendship rather than love. She loved him, but I don't think he loved any woman until Nienor.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Actually it's true Turin shows some improvement in Brethil, obviously chastened by the disaster he'd brought on Nargothrond, (I mean he's not a bad kid at heart - just hot tempered with poor impulse control, not to mention a bit self-obsessed). Unfortunately he ruins it all by reverting to type when confronted with the fact he's married his own sister and she's killed herself in despair.

However I must hold Nienor somewhat responsible for the deaths of Brandir and Turin as well. Granted it's fairly horrifying to discover you've accidently married your brother and are carrying his child but thowing oneself off a cliff has never struck me as a creative way of dealing with the crisis.

If Nienor had managed to keep her head, *she* could have been the one to break the news to Turin and maybe kept him from killing people, (which he tends to do when upset). Like her brother Nienor doesn't *think* but acts on the impulse and passion of the moment.

As for Glaurung putting a compulsion on Turin. I can't help feeling that if Mr. Bilbo Baggins could manage to keep his head and not put credence in a dragon's words so could Turin Turambar.

[The Saucepan Man]

What a fascinating discussion of my favourite tale and, for me, the most compelling of JRRT's characters. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

However I must hold Nienor somewhat responsible for the deaths of Brandir and Turin as well.

Of course, if she hadn't disobeyed here mother's (sensible) request and stayed in Menegroth instead, she would never have encountered Glaurung, been bewitched by him or met her brother in her amnesiac state.

Like her brother Nienor doesn't *think* but acts on the impulse and passion of the moment.

Quite.

I can't help feeling that if Mr. Bilbo Baggins could manage to keep his head and not put credence in a dragon's words so could Turin Turambar.

As far as I am concerned, the only department in which Smaug outmatched Glaurung was the wing department. Had Smaug had anything like Glaurung's ability to transfix and deceive, let alone his sheer malevolence, I really don't think Bilbo would have made it out of that chamber in one piece.

[ May 14, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Maybe so, but then Turin *is* the son of a Man who successfully resisted the Dark Lord himself. Turin is described as being conflicted on his journey north, which to my mind indicates he *chose* which course to pursue, (and part of his mind was telling him not to).

Of course to be fair its far from certain that Turin could have saved Finduilas even had he gone after her at once. The Orcs may well have killed her before he could reach her, just as they did in Brethil.

I've always thought Finduilas' final words were very touching; "Tell the Mormegil Finduilas is here." that wasn't meant as a reproach. She knew he'd come after her and I don't think she blamed him that he would now be too late, she just wanted him to know his search had ended.

[Aiwendil]

As for Glaurung putting a compulsion on Turin. I can't help feeling that if Mr. Bilbo Baggins could manage to keep his head and not put credence in a dragon's words so could Turin Turambar.

It's clear that something different is going on with Glaurung than with Smaug and Bilbo. Smaug merely speaks to Bilbo; it's a simple conversation/battle of wits. Clearly something else is at work in Glaurung's interaction with Turin. It is not until Turin lifts his visor and looks into Glaurung's eye that Glaurung has power over him. And the wording seems clear - Turin is not just daunted: "straightway he fell under the dreadful spell of the dragon".

Turin is described as being conflicted on his journey north, which to my mind indicates he *chose* which course to pursue, (and part of his mind was telling him not to).

I think that the actual choice was his own, but that the spell of Glaurung clouded his mind and thus caused him to choose poorly.

[davem]

I was struck the other day by something which may or may not have relevance. Tolkien's dislike of Lewis's Screwtape Letters. His reason was Lewis's 'trivialising of evil', treating it as a joke, something to play with. Isn't this what Hurin does with Morgoth? Defying Him in such a mocking, dismissive way. Hurin failed to take Morgoth seriously. There's a difference between refusing to bow down to evil, & being dismissive of it. Again, we come back to pride. Hurin seemed to believe that Morgoth couldn't do anything to break him or his family - if he even considered his family at that point. Hurin wasn't just putting himself at risk, he was putting his wife & children at the same or worse risk.
There does seem in the whole family this same trait, lack of thought for others. Turin returns to Dor Lomin without a thought of what the effect of his behaviour will be on his people. Turin & Hurin both place so much emphasis in their role as 'Lord', but seem not to consider the effect of their behaviour on their people. They all seem totally self obsessed, until they are forced to acknowledge the existence of others. When Nienor kills herself, does she for a moment consider the effect on Turin & others?

[Findegil]

I think we forget that we know more about the ongoing tale than the characters can have know in their time.
When Húrin has his words with Morgoth he believes that his wife and children had long since gone to Doriath as they both had spoken at the eve of the Nirneath. So he thinks they are safe. And what ever he says it is only his one risk in the first place.
When Niniel jumped into the Teglin she believes Túrin is lying dead, killed by the dragon. Nonetheless your point is worth considering. If she had stand that horror things would have gone otherwise, especially for Brandir whom she knew to love her, whatsoever.

Posted by Lalaith

Btw, slightly off topic but what about Turin's feelings towards Finduilas? I always interpreted them as friendship rather than love. She loved him, but I don't think he loved any woman until Nienor.

I don't think it was only friendship. He loved Finduilas but denied the feeling out of allegiance to Gwindor. The motivation was just but the result was bad for all three. But that was not his fault - or not alone his fault. He should not only have dismiss his feelings he should have dismiss her companionship. And in doing so he deepened her love for him and enraged Gwindor. In Finduilas we can see a failure in real love for Gwindor and her fault it was also to search further the companionship of Túrin after she perceived that Túrin didn't return her love. And Gwindor? He did do to less. We don't see him working for a reestablishment of Finduilas love to him. And when it was to late he spoke only to Finduilas and left Túrin in doubt. He did know more about Túrins motives than Finduials. Had he spoken to Túrin in the same way he spoke to her, Túrin might have changed his mind about the relation to Finduials. But he spoke only overlate at the battlefield and than mixed with bitter words.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"I think that the actual choice was his own, but that the spell of Glaurung clouded his mind and thus caused him to choose poorly."

Turin has a long history of poor choices even when *not* beclouded by a dragon. It all comes back to what I said before, he lets himself be blown around by gusts of passion instead of trying to think things out and make a *rational* decision. And Morgoth uses this weakness against him.

[Numenorean]

Turin has a long history of poor choices even when *not* beclouded by a dragon.

This is quite a sweeping statement Morwen, the whole Narn is written in such a deep shade of grey that even some of Turins 'poorest choices' have or produce elements of goodness and hope along the way.
For example, after falling in with the outlaws (as opposed to the so-called better choice of staying in Doriath)he transforms them from a bunch of fell petty thieves & rapists into a dynamic and effective military platoon, opposed to Morgoth and all he commands. This is good fruit from a bad vine.

It could be argued that the power of the Doom that Morgoth laid on him is far beyond our comprehension, and the root cause of all of his 'poor choices', in which case how can we judge him objectively? Who can really say where the Doom began and Turins own will ended?
At his core he is, I feel, essentially a good man who is waylaid and damned by the machinations of a dark 'God'. How can anyone honestly be expected to remain calm and objective and rational with a fate as interwoven with pure evil as Turins was?

[ May 15, 2003: Message edited by: Numenorean ]

[Lalaith]

When we criticise Hurin and family for thoughtlessness, let's not forget that these are men (and women) who display extreme physical courage of a kind none of us here (I suspect) have ever been called upon to do or could hope to muster. It is difficult to get into that kind of heroic mindset, but I think that thinking of others, and the cautious mulling over of consequences, does not sit easily with having constantly to fight battles to the death against enormous odds. Someone like Brandir could be thoughtful and considerate of others, but wouldn't men of action like Hurin and Turin be, by definition, of a more reckless stamp?

Also it is interesting to contrast the fate of the other strand of the family - Huor and Tuor. Huor was killed in battle and Rian died of grief, but neither suffered spiritual destruction. And Tuor, of course, had a very happy fate.