WW LXXXII: Return to Tol-in-Gaurhoth

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Legate- Looks much better in my eyes after his last post. He raises some interesting points and .

Oh, thanks, even though I don't know what is the other part of why you think of me better

Originally Posted by Ozban

I have other options though, especially you!

And thanks too!

But now! Actually if there are more people willing to vote Lottie, perhaps we can at last make it a competition? And if one of these two is innocent and anotehr is not, at least the voting could tell us something?

EDIT: Xed with two votes

[skip spence]

So if we lynch Lottie and she is innocent. what do we learn. Nothing.

She is guilty. Great, then Legate is probably innocent.

We lynch Legate and he is innocent. Could potentially teach us something but very bad still.

He's guilty. Great, then Lottie is probably okay.

[Nogrod]

I thought of bringing Lottie to the mix... Are there enough votes to make it a sensible idea?

Lottie --> Skip
Boro --> Eönwë
Nerwen --> Skip 2
Greeniw --> Skip 3
Ozban --> Legate

Edit: X'd with the few latest

[skip spence]

I guees I'd have to go with

++Legate

And Inzil, you have good reasons not to vote me regardless of your role!

[wilwarin538]

Day 2

Leg #118: says my random vote is better than Ozban’s. Which I must say is silly, my vote was for myself, a total throwaway, whil Oz actually had a legitimate suspicion for Legate. And I find it funny that Leg calls him ‘alibistic’, which is exactly what Ozzy had called him. Not comfortable with Noggins. –

Ozzy #120: says he would rather vote for who he suspects over voting with the crowd, I likey. + (I really like this kid, he amuses me)

Boro #123: quotes Shasta’s posts, and thinks that PitchWolf was the likely dream. It was a logical conclusion. +

Skip #124: explains that he felt Lottie could have been the Seer and had dreamt of ShastaWolf, also agrees Pitch could have been the dream. The Lottie Seer thing is odd, but I suppose I see where he was coming from . =

Nog #125: didn’t like Boro’s vote at all, and doesn’t really thing the Shasta lynch was ‘random’ as Legate had said. =

Leg #127: long detailed list, fine with Greenie, finds it odd that Lottie hadn’t received more votes than Shasta, uncomfortable with Nog, ok-ish with Pitch, thinks Skip is ‘lost in the crowd’, suspicious of Glirdypie, iffy about Inzil, questionmark Boro, fine with moi, not sure about Eonwe. What really stand out about this post is what he says about Ozzy: “Of Ozban I spoke above basically in my previous post... I think he has generally sort of good style, it just remains to be seen whether he is hiding fur behind some mask or not.” Uhm, what? I dislike this, it sounds weird, the whole ‘it remains to be seen’, cause that seems like it would apply to everyone. Just odd. –

Nog #129: doesn’t like that Legate seems to be saying that Shasta wasn’t at all suspicious, wants to hear more from Lottie. =

Leg # 130: says how hard it is to analys the votes, since they were mostly all for the same person (agreed). Says again that Lottie was more suspicious, hence his confusion over Shasta being the lynch (agreed). Thinks dream was either WolfPitch or OrdoNerwen. +

Inzil #134: agrees that Pitch could have been the dream +

Lottie #135: this: “First off - what the hey? What was that? That bandwagon has got to be one of the silliest bandwagons I've seen in a long time (and the fact that I've seen sillier is just sad. ). And by 'that bandwagon', I mostly mean the...five, was it, people who voted close to each other, towards the end. Did you guys see no problems in this situation?” and this: “Yeah, I realized later that my disclaimers could look Seerish. After I noticed that, my 'plan' was to lynch Shasta, who was supposed to be a wolf, and then maybe/hopefully the wolves would kill me instead of the real Seer. Yeah. That went well. Now pardon me while I go head-desk for a few minutes...”. I feel like giving her 3 negatives for all that. - - -

Boro #139: describes his feelings about the bandwagon, and the reasoning for his random vote = frustration (ditto for me). Thinks perhaps a PitchWolf dream would be too obvious. +

(eek, only 38 minutes left til DL, going to speed this up a bit, and likely be a bit vague for stuff)

Inzil #142: also agrees about dream maybe being of Pitch +

Lottie #144: makes list, doesn’t trust Pitch, Nog, Legate and Ozzy, and in 146 says that Pitch isn’t suspicious on his own, the possibility of him being dreamed is the only reason to vote him. =

Legate #150: post about Lottie, that I agreed with quite a bit, made some good arguments against her. (votes her right after) +

Ozzy #154: suspicious of Lottie and Legate, thinks Nerwen the more likely dream, didn’t like Skip’s vote, feels good about Steve. (poem in 155, interesting) +

Boro #156: talks about Ranger save, more about bandwagon, accuses me of Cobblery because of my self-vote. =

Boro #160: note going to vote Leg, Lottie, Nerwen, Greenie, suspects Nog and I of Cobblery, and then lists everyone else as “The rest of the bunch who are neither coming off as people I would not want to vote for nor the cobbler, and thus possible wolves who I may cast a vote for...” =

(page 5, yaya!!!)

Lottie #161: defends her vote, still don’t like her reasoning –

Greenie #162: votes Skip, because of his ‘opportunistic’ Shasta vote =

Ozzy #164: votes Pitch +

Nog #165: talks about the wagon, thinks Glidy, Skip and Pitch’s votes look the worst =

Nog #168: debating about Pitch being the dream, seems very unsure (and today called me wavering, did he? how interesting) –

Eonwe #180: defends his vote, and says that the Ranger save didn’t make up for losing our Seer, I get his point, though I don’t totally agree. +

Nog #184: still suspicious of Glirdy and in 187 still unsure about whether or not to go for Pitch =

Inzil #188: votes Pitch, good reasoning. +

Skip #192: goes for Legate, so there are alternatives =

Boro #199: goes for Pitch, I don’t understand what he said before his vote, I *think* he was agreeing with me, but for some reasoning the wording makes no sense to me =

Eonwe #200: says Pitch lynch would make sense, and even if he’s innocent then atleast we could feel good about nerwen +

Lottie votes for Pitch, Nog votes for Lottie, Steve for Lottie

And I’ll just stop there, I don’t have enough time to go through today in that detail, I’m afraid.


Results? (taking into account the total +/=/- I gave to their posts, and my ultimate opinion on them)

Legate: 4 +, 1 =, 5 -.....I don't like. He's very wishy-washy, seems to go back in forth with his opinions, and just maybe wants to seem more useful then he is and wants to keep everyone happy. I'm leaning that he could be the Cobbler, but I'm suspicious enough of him to vote him.

Noggins: 2 +, 5 =, 3 -.....so I feel mostly good about him, in an iffy sorta way. It's like I want to trust him, but something just seems off.

Inzil: 7 +. I like Inzil. He's logical, and seems very honest to me.

Lottie: 1 +, 2 =, 6 -.....really not trusting Lottiepop, biggest reason being her reaction on Day 2 about the Shasta bangwaggon, getting all upset that we all voted the same as her, and then trying to say it was cause she was trying to make the wolves think she was the Seer. Didn't like any of that at all.

Skip: 4 =, I'm really unsure about him, som things I don't like, some things I do.

Steve: 3 +, hasn't posted too much, but what I've seen I've liked.

Ozzy: 5 +, I want him to be my new best friend (no offense Glirdypie ). He's really cool, and I like how direct he is.

Greenie: 4 =, 1 -. Mostly neutral about her.

Boro: 3=, 4 +. Feel fairly good about him, mostly cause I agree with him on practically everything.

So right now, if I had to guess who our wolves are I would go with Legate and Lottie, and if I had to choose a third that would be Nog. I think I'm gonna vote either Legate or Lottie though.

x'ed with a bunch, and only I only have 2 minutes!!! *panics*

[Ozban]

Time's running out, lightning was seen, thunder's to be heard any moment.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nog, I think we can at least try. And if skip is Wolf and WWs want to save him, we'll give them the chance! By which they could be caught later...

Ok, but now probably x-ed... okay I see now... whatever...

[Nogrod]

Jesus wilwa!

You should be lynched for that!

[wilwarin538]

++ Legate

For previously stated reasons.

[Nogrod]

++ Lottie

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

++skip

Just in case somebody wanted to vote ME still. I guess the lottie-plan should've started a bit earlier... again we are at bandwagon... but let's see what happesn...

EDIT: x-ed with wilwas and nogs and whatnot, and I see I've possibly done well to vote like I did...

[Ozban]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

zzy #120: says he would rather vote for who he suspects over voting with the crowd, I likey. + (I really like this kid, he amuses me)

Kid? you are about 4 months older than me!!

[Eönwë]

Definitely not liking Lottie.

Just reread Day 1.

On her second post she suddenly (jokingly?) suspects Shasta, and then suddenly gets more serious about it in her next post, with the very wolvish "here is some evidence for why he could be evil, but I'm probably wrong, but still, look at this evidence" sort of approach. The classic trying-to-start-other-people-suspecting-someone tactic. And then votes him after a few posts, with not much more reasoning.

edit: x-ed with page.

[Eönwë]

So
++Lottie

again.

edit: didn't get a chance to read any other posts since the last, so basically another x with the page.

[Thinlómien]

Deadline, stop posting. Skip has been lynched unless I miscounted . Narration up as soon as I get it written.

[Inziladun]

A lot to digest in a short period of time. My apologies.

++Legate

[Nogrod]

A bit different one this time...

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Jesus wilwa!

You should be lynched for that!

What? I wasn't going to put an hour into something and not post it.

x'ed with a bunch, wow, that was nuts...

[Eönwë]

Well it seems like that didn't happen then.

edit: x-ed with Modess, etc.

[Thinlómien]

Alright, since Zil xed with me and his vote does count, it's a tie. This means, I'm going to flip a coin and you're going to have even more suspense for the next 25-40 minutes...

[Thinlómien]

Alright, Agan pointed out to me that I should tell you right now who died. So it's Legate, thanks to my choosing Agan's left hand. Off to write the narration...

[Thinlómien]

When the third day in the pit came closer to an end, the Elves had not reached an agreement.
"We want to lynch Skip," Loslote, Nerwen, Green and Legate said.
"We want to lynch Legate," Ozban, Skip, Wilwarin and Inziladun said.
Both parties were relentless, and the rest thought the conflict stupid because they wanted someone else entirely to die. No one listened to them.

"Well then if you can't reach a conclusion, why not let fate decide?" asked Boromir, one of those who took neither side.
"That would be the fairest," Nogrod said quickly, himself staying out of the quarrel as well.
"I say we have them arm-wrestle. That will tell us enough," said Eönwë with a cunning look on his face.

Not having better propositions, the crowd agreed. Skip and Legate sat down, locked their hands and started arm-wrestling. Neither of them wanted to die, and both of them were experinced as hunters and thus not light of arm. But in the end Legate beat Skip: after all, the jeweller was by profession also a smith and thus his arms were used to hard work, but Skip used most of his days just writing sonnets to his beautiful Lady Finduilas.

Eönwë smiled. "So let us kill Legate then."
"What?!" shouted Legate, Green, Nerwen and Loslote in a chorus.
"Yes," said Eönwë. "You saw what happened to Glirdan last night. These foul beings have incredible strength. Thus, one of them would be strong."
"I think that makes sense," Boromir agreed and the ones who had wanted to see Legate dead agreed eagerly.
"So let us kill Legate," said Nogrod, who tended to end up as a judge.

Legate wasn't very surprised when he heard his companions wanted to kill him. It seemed fitting to die in the darkness, to die of the darkness. Legate had never imagined he could survive days in a place like the pit, after all, one thing he cherised above many others was the pure white light.

"So I would die where our Seer died. Take me to the pit," he said.
"Not a werewolf with our brave hero!" Ozban protested, but Nerwen gave him such a sour look that he quit complaining.
"Isn't it enough he dies?" Loslote asked, irritated.

They took Legate there, and Skip and Wilwarin grabbed his shoulders.
"Any last words?" asked Inziladun.
"Only this," said Legate. "Here it's darkness, darkness, darkness. Always the darkness, not even the briefest period of light, just the hours of slightly lesser darkness where you can see vague shapes if you really try. It's difficult to see anything clearly in the dark, and thus I forgive you."
"I see," said Nogrod.
"I think that's enough," said Boromir.
"Let him go," said Eönwë, and Wilwarin and Skip pushed Legate over the side.

Long he fell and he cried when he hit the bottom of the pit. There wasn't the slightest echo of wolvish howl to his death cry.

~*~

The Dead
Thinlómien (mod) - murdered in cold blood on Night1
Shastanis (seer) - cast to the pit in the pit on Day1
Pitch (ordo) - driven crazy and throttled in his fur scarf on Day2
Glirdan (ranger) - decapitated by a wolf's paw on Night3
Legate (ordo) - fell to the pit on Day3

The Living
Green - veteran hunter with a striking resemblance to an opossum
Boromir - incompetent gatewarden
Eönwë - hunter
Inziladun - weaponsmith
Loslote - young tag-along girl with frizzy hair
Nerwen - young and impatient hunter who makes animal statues of wood and likes the colour green
Nogrod - narcoleptic master-hunter
Ozban - young and naive hunter and admirer of Finrod Felagund
Skip - an admirer of Finduilas's
Wilwarin - hunter


Night4 has started. You all know what to do.

[Thinlómien]

Nerwen had never been one to have vivid and elaborate dreams. Mostly she woke up remembering nothing of her dreams and the dreams she remembered were simple: she had dreamt of skinning a rabbit, or of climbing a tree and seeing the beautiful green light in the leaves. But this place had changed everything, now she dreamt every night, of weird things and frightening things, and she remembered it all in the morning.

Tonight, Nerwen was walking in a hall filled with gigantic wooden statues, just like the figurines she tended to carve when she had free time, only a hundred times bigger. She could recognise the swan she had carved for her nephew, the bear she kept on her windowsill and the eagle that she had brought to her father's grave one night. She didn't know what they were doing here, for it seemed to her as if she still walked somewhere in the fortress of Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

On the Isle of Werewolves there must be a wolf... she thought and her eyes indeed found a massive wolf of beechwood poised as if ready to jump at its prey. She started walking towards it, not knowing why. She stood at the foot of the statue and looked up. The wolf looked almost benevolent, or at least there was a smile playing on its face. As she watched, the wolf statue started falling towards her, as inevitable as death...

...and she woke up to a second of relief before heavy paws landed on her chest and jaws closed around her neck. There was a rush of pain more terrible than she had ever experienced, and then everything was gone.

In the morning, the Elves found Nerwen's body torn in pieces.


~*~


The Dead
Thinlómien (mod) - murdered in cold blood on Night1
Shastanis (seer) - cast to the pit in the pit on Day1
Pitch (ordo) - driven crazy and throttled in his fur scarf on Day2
Glirdan (ranger) - decapitated by a wolf's paw on Night3
Legate (ordo) - fell to the pit on Day3
Nerwen (ordo) - killed in a nightmare come true on Night4

The Living
Green - veteran hunter with a striking resemblance to an opossum
Boromir - incompetent gatewarden
Eönwë - hunter
Inziladun - weaponsmith
Loslote - young tag-along girl with frizzy hair
Nogrod - narcoleptic master-hunter
Ozban - young and naive hunter and admirer of Finrod Felagund
Skip - an admirer of Finduilas's
Wilwarin - hunter


Day4 has now begun. Talk. Hunter hunt. Wolves no private talk. And so on. Good luck to both teams!

[skip spence]

*sigh*

This isle truly is accursed! And the Doom of Mandos keeps haunting us until the end of time! Was really hoping that Legate was guilty, but after the DL had passed and it was revealed that I’d live I immediately got the feeling we’d lynch another innocent. It’s just been that kind of game. Don’t I wish I tried with Lottie instead!

But seriously people, we need to hit a wolf today, or at the very least, the cobbler. If we don’t, we’re as good as dead. And yes, I am the Hunter. Felt I had to reveal and put the fear of death in Inziladun in order to save my own life over an unknown I believed could be a wolf (my pick was actually Legate *double-sigh*)

It both worked and misfired, because while it did save my life (as it seems) it also cost another innocent's life. I now almost feel it’s a shame I wasn’t the one who died, because I understand that you can’t trust my words just like that, and with Legate a proven innocent, I fear that I might seem the obvious lynch today (though in actuality there no good reason why it should be so). But really, if you lynch me, the baddies are 4 against 3 toMorrow and the wolves win the game, it’s that simple. And I urge you, be wary of any who pushes the idea of lynching me. The wolves are at the verge of victory and will be eager for closure.

I do have another reason to reveal too, apart from saving my life, and that is one I feel should come out into the open given how this game has developed.

[skip spence]

First, a few additional comments on Greenie's case against me now that I've time to reply to them (I wrote this ahead of the DL), and then, well maybe simultaneously, I believe I'll return the favour and have a look at her too.

First of all, she suspects me for jumping on the bandwagon to lynch Shasta. I gave him his forth vote after having expressed the intention to vote for him much earlier. It seemed logical at the time.

But isn't it ironic, in the light of this accusation, that Green's record that Day is almost identical to mine?

First she singles Shasta out as her main suspect:

Originally Posted by Green

Shasta - Don't trust him at the moment. I'd love to hear from him before having to vote, but since he has already voted I doubt he'll return. I feel worse about him than about anyone else in the village, but then again I'm doubtful whether - just in principle - it is possible to catch a psychic Shastawolf on Day 1... In short, my head is exploding with scenarios and I'm sure it's unhealthy.

Then she votes him shortly after I did:

Originally Posted by Green

Not that it makes any difference now..

++ Shasta

Because of what I've said before, don't have the time or energy to repeat everything.

Then comes an accusation that I stirred up suspicion and left others to do the dirty work on Day 2, after I asked Lottie why she suspected Shasta in the first place (which I still find very odd) and raised the possibility that Pitch was a dreamed of wolf.

Originally Posted by Green

He "leaves things to discuss" while he's away. His demand of explanation from Lottie is reasonable, though could also be read as a wolf sniffing an easy lynch-candidate. Especially when coupled with the second "thing to discuss", Pitchie as Shasta's possible dream. Now there's nothing wrong with that, but what worries me is the same I pointed out in his Day 1 post of impressions: he is careful not to say he himself suspects somebody, but rather encourages others to

Well, first of all, when I wrote that post it was early Day 2 and bedtime, and as I work I knew I'd have no chance of participating again until the last couple of hours of that Day. What can I do but leave it for others to carry on?

Secondly, you agree that asking Lottie for an explanation was reasonable. And that Pitch potentially looked as a dreamed of wolf was universally agreed upon (even Pitch himself knew it looked bad for him, poor thing!) though I may have been one of the first to raise the possibility...

Now this strikes me as plain silly:

Originally Posted by Green

I'm wondering how come Legate is only beginning to look bad - considering that Skip found him bad enough yesterDay to vote over someone he himself had pointed out as a possible Seer-dreamed wolf.

I said he is beginning to look bad. That doesn't mean that he, at that very moment, just started to look bad, and that he didn't minutes earlier. Like, if you observe a cyclist on the Tour de France, you don't describe him as beginning to look tired, the first instance he grins badly. You say that when he's been showing signs of weariness for some time, perhaps losing a few metres on the peloton, apparently struggling to keep up... I was perfectly aware that I voted Legate the previous Day, and you, Miss Green, are splitting hairs!

Then she blames me for finding Inzil suspicious...

Originally Posted by skip

Have had a quick look at Inziladun too. Funny thing, when looking through his posts there's precious little that seem worth quoting. He, if anyone, has been threading very carefully. Not posting much, sort of poking around, now and then raising slight concerns about people without pressing it too hard..

Originally Posted by Green

This strikes me as slightly odd. To me it looks more or less like he's describing the usual Inzil, who's always careful and slippery regardless of role, and again, he's raising slight doubts without openly suspecting. Talking about treading carefully...

Once again a case of double standards... Remember, she herself accuses me of the very same thing that I accuse Inzil of, that is: raising slight doubts without openly accusing (though I'd argue that Inzil have been more careful than I have and making subtle distractions as well)...

And it's once again ironic how she first chides me for joining in on the bandwagon to lynch innocent Shasta (she did the same) and then for not joining the bandwagon to lynch innocent Pitch (once again, she did the same, voting me and not Pitch). Takes one to know one, one might argue...

I also find it odd that I apparently is the only one Greenie suspects based on this very brittle case, and with the personal knowledge that I am in fact innocent. Odd if we imagine a small and cute and honest Green, trying to save the hunters from this horrid dungeon. More understandable if she's a wolf smelling blood, becoming bolder, more aggressive and going for an easy lynch to finish us off once and for all. Then again, since I suspected Legate (and ended up voting him, arguably causing his death) and he turned out innocent, her aggressive attack on me could look unnecessary. Then again, she could have felt that Lottie risked getting lynched, and that attacking me was a good way of avoiding that. That makes a lot of sense actually: Lottie and Green as fellows.

In that 'it could be this it could be that or it could be something in between' post of hers, she actually defended Lottie in a subtle way, especially in light of Shasta's now proved innocence.

Notice how she downplays the a) scenario: a lupine Lottie attacking innocent Shasta...

a) Lottiewolf relying on "gut-feeling" to justify easy suspicion on an innocent Shasta. I don't find this that likely, though it's definitely a possibility. Lottie's tone is quite genuine, and if she's a wolf I'd be more inclined to think Shasta is one too (= option d)).
b) Innocent Lottie getting her famous gut-feeling on a Shastawolf. Definitely possible.
c) Innocent Lottie getting her famous gut-feeling on an innocent Shasta. Definitely possible.
d) Lottiewolf and Shastawolf mess around with a neat Day 1 wolf-on-wolf show. Certainly wouldn't put it past the two of them.

[Boromir88]

Well, as much as I was agreeing with Wilwa earlier about how the hunter's purpose is taken away when being revealed, I was going to throw out today that we may have no choice but to have our hunter known. So, I can certainly understand your reasons Skip for wanting to reveal. For most of the game you've been highly defensive, which usually indicated either wolf or gifted. I'm gonna believe you, barring someone else saying..hold on I'm the hunter! Then my brain would be in a real mess, in trying to figure that one out. And even if you did have to reveal you could still make the wolves completely terrified to get rid of you.

Anyway it's dire right now. We need a wolf, or at least the cobbler TODAY. Another ordo, and it's as good as over tomorrow. Shall finish catching up on everything I missed yesterday. I'm having difficulties understanding this Legate lynch, or how it happened.

Edit: crossed with Skip

[Nogrod]

Okay Skip, I tend to trust your reveal as it looks quite unlikely a wolf or even a cobbler would try that kind of a trick - at least I can't see any benefit in them doing it (correct me if I'm wrong). And I think it's good you did that because now we can narrow down our hunt with one person toDay.

I'm not so sure the wolves would be eager to get you lynched either. You are the only risk to them aside with lynches.

But speaking of numbers... you're quite right that we need a wolf toDay. Getting the cobbler would still give us a chance the next Day but even then it would just take one wrong vote and we'd be done. So a wolf rather than a cobbler.

The downside of your revelation: the wolves will not accidentally kiil you the coming Night so that you could have hunted one of them down with you.


Anyway. There is the added problem of them having three votes against our five - and then there is the cobbler with a vote as well. So even toDay they can arrange things if we give them the chance for it.

So please, let's not vote like the previous Days, at last minute and without declaring our intentions. They'd love to steer the voting toDay with last minute surprises...

EDIT: X'd with Boro

[wilwarin538]

Ok, well that was a dissapointment, I was really sure of Legate.

Now we have 9 people: 3 wolves, 1 Hunter, 4 Ordos and 1 Cobbler. If we get it wrong both today and tomorrow, we lose.

Now Skippy. Hmm. I don't like this, cause I thought we had decided that the Hunter should NOT reveal, and we only have the one Gifted left.

Now lets think about this. If we don't get a wolf today and the wolves kill the Hunter tonight (and the hunter is hunting an innocent) then tomorrow we are left with 3 wolves, 3 Ordos and a Cobbler. The Cobbler will vote with the Wolves and we lose. If they kill the Hunter and the Hunter is hunting a wolf then we'll have a bit of a better chance.

If we don't get a wolf today and they just kill an Ordo tonight then tomorrow we'll be left with 3 Wolves, 1 Hunter, 1 Cobbler and 2 Ordos. Again though the Cobbler could vote with all 3 wolves and we'd lose (unless they lynch the Hunter, in which case he may take a wolf with him and we'd get another day).

Gah, my head hurts. Basically we need to get a wolf today, right?

Now back to Skip, again, I don't like this reveal at all. I'm very strongly against the Hunter revealing and I can't help but think that he's the Cobbler or Wolf trying to get the real Hunter to come out. The whole thing just doesn't sit right with me.

Let's say he's lying and the real Hunter comes out. Then we lynch Skip. If he's the Cobbler then they will kill some Ordo tonight (they won't risk going after the Hunter) and tomorrow we'd have 3 wolves, 1 Hunter and 3 Ordos. They could easily win that. If he's the wolf, well that would be actually a dumb thing for the wolves to do right now, so if Skip isn't the Hunter, he's the Cobbler, either way we shouldn't lynch him.

I don't know. I say leave him be and if he is lying the real Hunter should stay quiet, and then we just hope we get a wolf today.

x'ed with Nog and Boro, who are trusting Skip way to easily...

[Boromir88]

The problem though wilwa, is this is do or die day, where an unknown hunter could be far more harmful to the lynch today than a benefit to us at night. We need to worry about doing the job today in lynching a wolf, or in the very least the cobbler, or you can stick a phorc in us.

The situation calls that since we need, and I mean absolutely need, a baddie today there really is no choice but for the hunter to step out (which is also why it makes no sense for a wolf to make this reveal). Cobbler possibly. But if someone is actually the hunter, they absolutely 100% have to step out and say so now. We need a baddie and if Skip's not the hunter, this means he's one, and the real hunter has to step out and say so.

As it stands, Skip's been highly defensive all game, which usually to me says wolf or gifted. It could be that he's a wolf and knows today he could very easily be lynched, so might as well sacrifice and drag out the last gifted. However, I'm not sure why a wolf would do so right from the start. How many times has the 2nd leading vote getter from the previous day been basically forgotten the next? More than once. Maybe he is the cobbler, either way, if he's not the real hunter than the real hunter absolutely has to reveal now so we can take care of business today in lynching an evil Skipper.

However, I'm buying the reveal as it stands right now, because I completely understand his reasoning behind it. Yes, it means the wolves probably won't risk trying to kill him at night now (but what's the point of worrying about the night when we have to worry about lynching a wolf today?), but the situation is this desperate. Because of the desperation today, the hunter really has no other choice but to reveal, and since Skip was nearly lynched yesterday, not wanting to waste our time acquiring suspicions nad votes today, it's really understandable.

[Nogrod]

I skimmed through the last moments of yesterDay getting a feel of it but didn't start taking notes as yet as I'm going to be away for an hour. It's kind of chaotic to say the least.

But if someone is going to analyse the voting while I'm away, do put in the voting times and something about why people did what they did. The bare list doesn't tell us much and might even mislead at times. If none is going to do that, I'll do it as I come back.

And like I said in my earlier post: please, let's not do the voting that way again.

EDIT: X'd with Boro who speaks sense.

[Ozban]

I feel really bad, I blame myself for the Legate's death. Now there are nine of us left, four of that Bad-guys. We really are screwed.

Let's go all out: there's not much option left, is there? I got nothing to lose anyway, everything i did was wrong so far. And this is the only day to save the game.

During yesterDay my opinion on Legate has risen significantly. I was able to belive, that he was innocent. It was my personal-180, can't list any specific reasons, but just the change in his style caught my attention and than I reconsidered.
In that moment I started looking for wolves elsewhere, Skip being my first new choice.
After first votes were cast I was convinced that Skip's fate is sealed and evethough I deemed him a wolf, I opted not to join the wagon. My reasons were:

a) I seemed obvious that he'll be lynched even without my contribution.
b) I wanted to lay low, not to draw much attention from hairy side.
c) And finally, as I was convinced of Skip's furriness, I wanted to give puppies a tempting offer whom to vote, to try to save their comrade. I wanted to lure them to a "trap", having them to reveal their desire to save Skip. Skip cast vote for Legate right after and that sealed my suspicion of him.

Things turned out different, unfortunately. And what shocked me most was Inzil's vote. Last moment Skip-saviour. That stroke me as wolf pulling wolf out of the trouble at the last moment. Until reading skip's toDay's post I was convinced that they are wolves together, not knowing who the third is wasn't of much importance, eventhough I had few candidates.

Now I realize that my plan was naive at best, I did not consider Skip's eventual innocence. He must not be necesarily innocent though, his hunter-claim is hardly a proof. And my theory can still apply, I'm not that sure about it anymore, though.

I know this what i described can look false, It's a fragile construction, I realize that. Furthermore I got no proof on the matter, but please, consider it at least.

If someone can bring any light as to Skip's innocence/guilt, please do.

Damn It!! My head's gonna explode. That is, unless I drown in my pesonal sea of shame.

X'ed since #306. Will catch up to it now.

[wilwarin538]

But Boro, I know we need to focus on toDay, but we also have to think about what will happen later on if we make a mistake today.

If he's actually the Cobbler and not the Hunter, and the real Hunter comes forward and then we lynch Skip, then tomorrow we will be left with 3 wolves, a Hunter and 3 Ordos. Only 1 of the 4 innocents need to vote differently then the other 3 and the Wolves can then latch on and win. Ya know how hard it'll be to get everyone to agree like that? Not impossible, but hard.

So if something goes wrong today our Hunter is still our secret weapon (unless it is in fact Skip), and could end up being the Night kill and could take a wolf down with them (whether we lynch one toDay or not). So no, I don't think they should come forward if Skip is lying. It would completely defeat the purpose of the Hunter, cause no one will want to kill them, and Skip would likely just end up being a Cobbler, when we could have gotten a Wolf toDay instead.

I say Hunter shut it, let's temporarily ignore Skip, and just try to get a Wolf. Then at least if we fail today we still have a chance at an advantage if our Hunter is still unknown (if it isn't Skip).

x'ed with Nog and Ozzy...

[skip spence]

Wilwa, I understand what you are saying and find you genuine, but I still believe that I made the right decision in revealing.

One thing you keep ignoring too is that if I die (whether lynched or night-killed) and make the mistake of hunting an innocent (and gawd, haven't I been making mistakes!) the wolves win there and then.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And yes, I am the Hunter. Felt I had to reveal and put the fear of death in Inziladun in order to save my own life over an unknown I believed could be a wolf (my pick was actually Legate *double-sigh*)

I understand someone wanting to save himself. After all, that's why I voted Legate, despite having no real idea that he might be a wolf.
It makes sense that if you saw an opportunity to get your hunt-target lynched instead of you having to die too, you'd want the first option.
I would say that if skip is somehow not the real Hunter, xe should remain quiet for the best chance of getting a wolf. I'd very much hate to lynch the Hunter, though, since xir target dies regardless of alignment of xe is lynched.
That is to say, I agree with Wilwa.

Originally Posted by Ozban

After first votes were cast I was convinced that Skip's fate is sealed and evethough I deemed him a wolf, I opted not to join the wagon. My reasons were:

a) I seemed obvious that he'll be lynched even without my contribution.
b) I wanted to lay low, not to draw much attention from hairy side.
c) And finally, as I was convinced of Skip's furriness, I wanted to give puppies a tempting offer whom to vote, to try to save their comrade. I wanted to lure them to a "trap", having them to reveal their desire to save Skip. Skip cast vote for Legate right after and that sealed my suspicion of him.

When you cast your vote for Legate, skip only had three votes. You thought his "fate was sealed" with that?

x/d with skip

[Loslote]

I won't be here long, just popping in briefly.

Skip rubs me the wrong way. Not in the way where I think he's a wolf, because I don't, but...gah. I just think there's something off about threatening to Hunt someone in order to save your own life - especially when it ends up with us killing an ordo. If he hadn't, and had died, he might have managed to take a wolf with him. Actually, I really don't know why a Hunter would be so adverse to dying. It's the point of the role. But Vanilwuffin makes sense, so I'd agree with her that we should not lynch skip.

Also, by process of elimination, the wolf pack I came up with is Nog, Boro, and Steve. But I don't think that's right, so I must be wrong about some of the people I semi-trust, which means I have to look really closely at Greenie, Ozzy, Vanilwuffin, and Zil. Greenie I'm least sure about, and could very well be a wolf, I just don't currently think she is. I still think it'd be insanely awesome/awful if Ozzy was a wolf. Zil I could easily be wrong in trusting. Easily. Vanilwuffin I'm pretty confident about, but I'll look at her anyway if I get a chance.

Also, may I go head-desk for a while? I may? Wonderful...

EDIT: xed with Skip and Zil

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Ozban

And what shocked me most was Inzil's vote. Last moment Skip-saviour. That stroke me as wolf pulling wolf out of the trouble at the last moment. Until reading skip's toDay's post I was convinced that they are wolves together, not knowing who the third is wasn't of much importance, eventhough I had few candidates.

Leaving your rather dodgy post aside for now I can comment on this. I believe the reason Inzil voted Legate was because I strongly suggested that he'd die if I did (ie that I was the hunter hunting him). That semi-bluff was my last desperate attempt to stay alive and (as I hoped) lynching a wolfish Legate.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It makes sense that if you saw an opportunity to get your hunt-target lynched instead of you having to die too, you'd want the first option.

But, if I understand correctly, he wasn't hunting Legate. He was hunting you:

And Inzil, you have good reasons not to vote me regardless of your role!

EDIT: xed with Skip, who (I think) cleared that up

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

But, if I understand correctly, he wasn't hunting Legate. He was hunting you:

He said here he was really hunting Legate.

Originally Posted by skip spence

And yes, I am the Hunter. Felt I had to reveal and put the fear of death in Inziladun in order to save my own life over an unknown I believed could be a wolf (my pick was actually Legate *double-sigh*)

[Ozban]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

When you cast your vote for Legate, skip only had three votes. You thought his "fate was sealed" with that?
[/B]

It was three against one and public opinion was favoring Skip as the beast, as I said, I was being naive. But I was so certain of my reasoning at that moment, not so much now.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I still think it'd be insanely awesome/awful if Ozzy was a wolf.

Agreed, I would be going to win. Not any such luck though.

[skip spence]

I should point out that Inzil's last ditch vote says nothing about his allegiances, as far as I'm concerned. It made as much sense for an innocent Inzil as it would for a wolfish or cobblerish Inzil.