Gondorian Soldiers Vs. Rohirrim Soldiers

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

Did anyone notice besides me that the soldiers of Gondor got slapped all up and down Osgiliath and Minas Tirith? I saw very few soldiers besides Faramir actually killing orcs. On the other hand the Rohirrim were incredible, and slayed just about anything in their path.I know the Rohirrim were pretty riled up and they had horses, but my question is, who is better, the average Gondorian soldier or the average soldier of the Mark?

[Scott]

I don't think that I could ever bring myself to even form a halfway definite opinion on this question. It's just too hard of a question, I think. I mean, yeah, the Rohirrim had horses and were in quite a great number compared to the forces at Osgigliath. However, it seems that Gondor's soldiers were more of a regular standing army, while the Riders of the Mark were in many cases just reserve men. Plus, the armor of the Gondorians seems better in most cases (except maybe for mobility). As far as the heart that was put into the fight, I think that both forces measured up failry equally. Like I said, I don't think I could ever formulate a definite opinion on this one.<p>[ 10:30 PM December 29, 2003: Message edited by: Scott ]

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> However, it seems that Gondor's soldiers were more of a regular standing army, while the Riders of the Mark were in many cases just reserve men. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The thing I'm trying to point out is, if Gondors army was a standing army, why did they get thrown around so bad, whereas the "reserve" riders of Theoden got riled up and swept through the Orc army without even looking back.

[lore_master]

I couldnt realy be form a definate opinion on this either. <BR>but, you have to remember that the armies in gondor and osgiliath had been fighting for a lot long than those in rohan.<BR>also, rohan had aragorn.<P>but i think they would be equal in fighting if they had undergone the same circumstances.<P>also the inhabitants of rohan were rather uncizilized and "barbarian" like to the standards of gondor, or at least minas tirith. while gondor had a trained army instead of the "militia" that rohan's armies seem to mostly made up of.

[balrogman]

if it was on horse, rohirrim<P>if it was on foot, gondorian<P>also, chain mail, which the rohirrim use, is in many cases better than plate mail, which gondor uses

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

If the soldiers of Gondor had more been through more fighting wouldn't they have more experience?

[Tar-Alcarin]

Yes, but the orcs can over run them, they can get tired and fast, wearing all that plate armour must get tiring after a while. Also they have been fighting for days and days. You cant say that the Rohirrim at Pelennor werent getting slapped around by the Mumaks.

[Lord of Angmar]

The question posed is indeed a hard one to answer. My response would go like this:<P>As a whole, the Rohirrim are probably better archers and definitely better cavaliers. As for hand-to-hand combat, the Gondorians would have the upper hand. Overall, my vote has to go to the Gondorians, for their noble bearing and strong military history. Remember, although it may have seemed in the battle at the Pelennor Fields that the Rohirrim were stronger, their situations were very different: the soldiers of Minas Tirith bore the brunt of an assault, and had to defend their keep against an onslaught of foes. The Rohirrim advanced to Pelennor without being noticed, and so had an upper hand, since they could cleave through foes who had before been entirely concentrated on Minas Tirith and who did not have time to prepare for a side-on cavalry assault.

[lore_master]

defending something for the most part will be more difficult than attacking.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Plus, the armor of the Gondorians seems better in most cases (except maybe for mobility).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Or so it would've seemed. But the orcs were beating (& biting) them without any trouble anyway, to the point where a total stranger leaned over to me & said, "So...why are they wearing this armour if it obviously doesn't do them any good?" I just said I didn't know, because saying 'oh I'm sure it does them some good, the director just didn't show us any scenes where it did' would sound totally lame . Given the way that Gondorian soldiers were shown in RotK, I think that the Rohirrim were better (in the movies).

[lindil]

First off PJ felt he needed to radically simplify the variety of Dunedainian soldiery in the Films.<P>In the Books I see something of the following Heirarchy of Fighters [amongst Dunedain and Rohirrim].[LIST][*]Dunedain of the North - missing[*]Rangers of Ithilien and Knights of Dol Amroth - both missing from Pellenor Feilds also Knights of the Tower[*]Rohirrim[*]Miscellaneous soldiery of Gondor from the provinces [few full on warriors, most local reserves].<P>Of course one could juggle some the above around, just my take on the books.<P>We do have a few solid bits to go on, The Rohirrim looking like boys besides the Rangers of the North.<P>THe impression given of the Knights of Dol Amroth and of Amroth himself, and legolas' comment.<P>PJ [somewhat understandably] felt a need to drastically simplify things and so virtually all of the above distinctions are lost. Gondor appears to have a relatively large cohgesive army which JRRT nowhere ascribes to them.<P>As for how they seem in Battle, remember that Minas Tirith's leader was fey and doing nothing in the realm of morale, whereas Theoden had in classic Norse fashion whipped his horse boys up into a death chanting frenzy.

[Finwe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><BR>whereas Theoden had in classic Norse fashion whipped his horse boys up into a death chanting frenzy.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>*sigh* So true. So true.<P><BR>You'd be surprised at the difference between an armored warrior who's gone so fey that he embraces death, and an armored warrior who is fighting out of fear that he will die. I daresay that most of the Gondorians were fighting out of the fear that they would die and their city would fall. The Rohirrim, on the other hand, had already tasted near defeat and the advent of a new hope, not to mention the adrenaline coursing through their veins in that charge. You just CAN'T charge an army like that without getting a MAJOR rush of adrenaline.

[Lathriel]

One note i would like to add. When the Rohirrim came the Gondorian soldiers had already been fighting for some time and they were very tired. The rohirrim certainly had more energy when they reached the Pellenor fields.

[Tar-Alcarin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You just CAN'T charge an army like that without getting a MAJOR rush of adrenaline.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>i cant watch a charge like that and not get a surge of Adrenaline.

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You just CAN'T charge an army like that without getting a MAJOR rush of adrenaline.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I know what you mean, i got a MAJOR rush of adrenaline just watching that scene.<BR>Just to put out another question. How do you think the Gondorians would have done, if they had been riled up?

[Knight of Gondor]

Why, I'm surprised no one thought to ask the Knight of Gondor!<P>I'd say that plate armor would tend to get a little in the way. While the Rohirrim had the advantage of surprise, and they were on horseback. They also had the advantage of speed, and the rage brought on by the previous deeds committed by the orcs.<P>Still, I think we should give due credit to the other Knights of Gondor. They were quite brave in their battles against the orcs.

[Maeglanthirion]

Keep in mind, the Rohirrim have been riding for a long time so they aren't exactly "fresh". But yes, the Rohirrim had the advantage of horses so if any orcs escaped the blade then they were more than likely trampled by the horses. And the Rohirrim charged with the mentality that they were going to die so they fought with all they had because it was their end. And yes the adrenaline rush would definately make them endure a little longer and fight a little harder. <BR> The Gondorians were probably in worse shape though. They had been fighting throughout the night and the previous day and they had been losing, killing their morale. And yes they had the mentality of fear of death and losing their city. Plate mail is lighter than chain mail, but can hinder mobility slightly and is slightly weaker. But chain mail is heavier, the price of strength. So i would have to guess that the Gondorians were better, but since they were very weary and their morale was very low and their mentality was poor, and the Rohirrim had horses and adrenaline and a good(?) mentality, and were "fresh" if you will, at the time, the Rohirrim were better soldiers. So, maybe that helped.

[Maltagaerion]

Sorry I'm a little late on this thread <P>I see nobody mentioned this, so I guess I'll go ahead and say it. I was said that in the days of the calvary that a soldier on a horse was worth ten on foot. That certainly seems to be true as one could travel faster and farther, be a harder target, strike harder and faster.<P>6,000 mounted soldiers whipped into a 'this is our doom' battle frenzy would do some serious damage I would imagine.

[Magician of Nathar]

My friend said the Gondorian army looking very British, while the Rohirim looked vaguely Roman, costume wise at least. We ought to kill the costume designers if this is the impression they are giving to the audience.

[The Great Shadowfax]

i would definately have to say that a soldier of the mark is better than an average soldier from gondor. besides being totaly cool, a rohirrim soldier is fast (when mounted), has the height advantage and his horse helps protect him, make way for him and can even trample some foes of his own. of course my oppinion is a little one sided because of the horses <BR> but thats my oppinion...<BR>SEE YOU IN THE GREAT PLAINS IN THE SKY<BR>~Luindringiel~<BR>~Pennsarnien~

[Phervasaion]

I reckon they would have round about the same fighting ability. The differences in armour would make a difference but at the end of the day they are both men and would have round the same abilities.<P>At Minas Tirith and Pelenor I would definatly agree that the Gondorians were tired and scared (Especially when they saw those Trolls walk through the door, whereas the Rohirrim were mounted and got a huge adrenaline rush from the charge.

Well I'm probably a bit late in this thread, but I ran past it on the far edges of the www, and decided to give my opinion.

The way i see it the Gondorian soldiers have a long past of successes such as the 1st great war before the trilogy started, they expanded ther teritories for miles and miles and managed to keep their borders save from orcs and other enemies for centuries without any help of the Rohirrim hordes.

Same counts for the Rohirrim Soldiers who kept their territories for centuries from the wildman (Read the Simarillion), orcs and other enemies.

The Gondorian's were beaten down against a huge overwelming power of orc's in Osgiliat, but as u can see in the battle, quite some orcs were slain though they overan the Gondorian's in the 2nd battle.

During the 2 towers though the Gondorian´s managed to keep the city of Osgiliat save with only 1500 man against another overwelming power of Orc´s and the ringwraiths.

Don´t forget that the movie is not exact to the books, the books speak of more heroes than seen in the movie.

The only thing which made me wonder regarding the Rohirrim is Helm´s Deep...

Only the king and 4 bodyguards were remaining together with Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli... All Elfs and footsoldiers were slain... quite a massacre... I did not see that many people fall in Osgiliat, and Osgiliat did not have 3 rings of defence such as Helm´s Deep...

In the end though when the Rohirrim and Gondorian Soldiers make a stand in front of the black gate of Mordor, they both fight equally impressive, without too many casualities... they level eachother out I guess on that level...

[Boromir88]

This is a movie forum, but to answer it from a book perspective. Rohirrim were a much better cavalry unit then the men of Gondor. Only exception would be the knights of dol amroth (which I pray they put in the EE). The knights of dol amroth were probably of better calvary then the Rohirrim, but the Rohirrim altogether was a Cavalry country. Gondor definately had the better soldiers (this is what the movie didn't show well). The only reason for the extreme weakness of the Gondor soldiers was because PJ wanted to install the fact that Gondor needed Aragorn, they needed a king. There were so many things he got wrong, not an enemy entered into Minas Tirith, they broke through the gates then Rohan arrived, Gondor was a big part upon Pelennor fields as it made clear they were a big part in slaying the Mumakil. Despite this, I actually love the movie, because how exciting is it to see orcs get stopped dead in their tracks on Minas Tirith? Not even entering the city. People want to see them on the 3rd and 4th levels, which I credit PJ for.

[Zebedee]

I also noticed the Gondorians getting slapped around. There standing army should, in theory, be better then Rohan's defense force, as they would have more practice. Also, the Gondorians did not appear to try to stop the barges from reaching the shore. They should have called the archers in. It was foggy in the movie, but they did have time to get a hasty defense.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by TheSquireof Aragorn

Did anyone notice besides me that the soldiers of Gondor got slapped all up and down Osgiliath and Minas Tirith? I saw very few soldiers besides Faramir actually killing orcs. On the other hand the Rohirrim were incredible, and slayed just about anything in their path.I know the Rohirrim were pretty riled up and they had horses, but my question is, who is better, the average Gondorian soldier or the average soldier of the Mark?

A tough one. These comments are all quite good, and some have hit near what I am thinking.... the issue of morale. As soldiers, I would say the Gondorians would seem to be the better, having the battle experience of the Ithilien, Osgoliath, and all, and the Rohirrim being as was said, reservists. But the key is, even though things were grim, the Rohirrim were fresh off a victory over Sarumann, and victory does have an effect on raising morale. The soldiers of Gondor have been fighting a long attrition with a slow decline over the years, with all their years of effort seemingly come to naught, hence their morale was rock-bottom. On the other hand, with ones families in danger, I would think it would bring out the fiercest in the Gondorians.

A second issue would be leadership. Compare King Theoden to Steward Denethor. That can have an effect on morale of the men as well as the captains.

[Alchisiel]

Another thing that I think should be taken into consideration is that the Gondorian soldiers were constantly under attack. All that stress can be very tiring. It's called Battle Fatigue which is a proven fact. That's why the military rotates their troops. If every man is needed to defend the city the stress will take a toll on your body and mind.

Also the Gondorian soldiers were demoralized. They didn't have a strong leader in Denethor and they thought their captain Faramir was dead. If your enemy just threw the heads of your dead comrades all over the place wouldn't you be demoralized? They didn't have a strong leader really until Gandalf took the lead and they thought that there was no help coming. They thought that everything was lost until the Rohirrim showed up who hadn't been constantly fighting. So the Rohirrim's bodies and minds were fresher and ready for battle.

So I think that the Gondorian soldiers would have kicked some butt if they hadn't been besieged by the Enemy and would have showed the Rohirrim a thing or to if they hadn't been suffering from battle fatigue.

[Boromir88]

PJ just simply portrayed Denethor awfully.

[Alchisiel]

I agree with you Boromir88, the movie Denethor was awful and I found the book Denethor much more interesting. But this is a movie forum and I'm talking about how the movie Denethor was portrayed.

[Neurion]

Gondorians without any doubt. The Rohirrim are good, but let's face it, they're not a standing army like the Gondorians, few of them have had formal combat training, they're generally smaller in stature, and their armor is vastly inferior to the Gondorian's all-over steel plate.

[Snowdog]

Gondorians without any doubt. The Rohirrim are good, but let's face it, they're not a standing army like the Gondorians, few of them have had formal combat training, they're generally smaller in stature, and their armor is vastly inferior to the Gondorian's all-over steel plate.

True. I think on a man-for-man standing, the soldier of Gondor is better at the art of war than the Rohirrim.

However, The Rohorrim are lighter armed and armored because they're primarily calvary whereas the soldiers of Gondor are either seige infantry ( Minas Tirith) Light infantry (Ithilien Rangers), or armored calvary (led by Faramor to Osgoliath).
Still, I think the morale issue plays a big part in it as does battle fatigue.

[Kath]

People keep saying that the Rohirrim have not had any practice and while this is true in terms of recent history if you look at their past they are a warlike race. Go back to Eorl the Young and all the old heroes of their race and then look at all the history they keep up with. Like the Golden Hall with all its tapestries and statues. Though the Rohirrim are a younger race than the Gondorians and have not had such drastic problems with the orcs it is unfair to say that they aren't as good. They are just in a different form. The Gondorians are good at hand to hand combat with other people (or orcs) at the smae level.
The Rohirrim are cavalry, their main force is in their charge which is very effective (as seen in the film) and they can fight on foot though they would prefer horses.

[Boromir88]

How is it unfair to say they aren't as good. The question was to compare the Rohirrim and Gondorians, and who do you think was better. People have said the Gondorians, and have made a suitable case for them, you support the Rohirrim and have made a case for the. I just don't see how it's unfair to say that the Rohirrim aren't as good.

[Kath]

Because I think it's a little unfair to compare them when they have different ways of fighting.

[Boromir88]

But we shan't forget the knights of Dol Amroth. I would say that unit is even better then the Rohirrim Cavalry. The knights were the only ones able to withstand the Nazgul shriek (and Gandalf).

However, as an overall look, yes Rohirrim has the better cavalry.

[Bandobras Took]

Well considering that the rohiram where a pritty much a pointy moving wall, I would say the men of the mark.

[Kath]

The Ithilien soldiers always reminded me of the Dunedain, and they were supposed to be amazing fighters.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Kath

People keep saying that the Rohirrim have not had any practice and while this is true in terms of recent history if you look at their past they are a warlike race. Go back to Eorl the Young and all the old heroes of their race and then look at all the history they keep up with. Like the Golden Hall with all its tapestries and statues. Though the Rohirrim are a younger race than the Gondorians and have not had such drastic problems with the orcs it is unfair to say that they aren't as good. They are just in a different form. The Gondorians are good at hand to hand combat with other people (or orcs) at the smae level.
The Rohirrim are cavalry, their main force is in their charge which is very effective (as seen in the film) and they can fight on foot though they would prefer horses.

While it is true that the Rohirrim are a formidable force, they have more of a Carolingian style of mounted combat rather than a medieval one; spears held over-hand or thrown, rather than couched (clamped under the arm). It can be reasonably assumed that the Dol Amroth knights, who seem to be heavy cavalry, would charge in a more solid wall, with couched lances.

At any rate, I think it all comes down to leadership on the larger scale. A Gondorian soldier would have the advantage over a Rohirrim on foot, in terms of superior height, armor and their (presumably rigorous) continous state of training for warfare. In terms of armies, leadership and tactics will determine the outcome. I've no doubt the Rohirrim could easily overwhelm any force the orcs could throw at them, or a poorly organized Gondorian force, but conversely, a well-led Gondorian force could effectively counter a Rohirrim cavalry charge very effectively with phalanxes of spearmen and massed archers.

[Finwe-89]

They are both very strong. But Gondorians are better I think. They have longer swords and long-bows, better armor, training and battle attack positions. I'm not saying that Rohan is weak, but they don't have the eguipment to form a great army. They are only strong when they are on horses, on foot they are nothing but running farmers with swords and axes.

[Boromir88]

Since their fighting strategies are totally different, it is hard to tell, which means it comes down to leadership. This depends upon the time we are talking about. Let's say if instead of Gondor was fighting Mordor, they were fighting Rohan. At this time I'd give advantage Rohan, because of the leaders.

Theoden
Eomer
Elfhelm
Hama
Erkenbrand
Grimbold
Gamling

Gondor:

Denethor
Faramir
Imrahil
Forlong
Duinhir, Duirin, Derufin
Dervorin

Match em up, I'd give advantage Rohan. But, if we are talking about the 4th age here, advantage swings to Gondor.

Rohan:

Eomer
Erkenbrand
Gamling
Elfhelm

Gondor:

Aragorn
Imrahil
Faramir
Duinhir

[Finwe-89]

Didn't you forgot Boromir? He was a Captain in the 3th Age