White Deer - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

elven maiden Earwen · 05-18-2003, 04:37 PM

In the Hobbit when the dwarves were crossing the river. A dark deer jumped out. Seconds later a white one appeared. The dwarves shot at it but they either missed or the arrows had no effect on the deer. Who was the second deer? I always thought the deer was:

1) A spirit of good. I always thought that the black deer might have been bad. The white deer was the good that came to drive the darkness from the forest.

2) Or it was a symbol. Much like the above the white dwarf was a symbol of good, and the black was a symbol evil. It showed how both groups were strong but it was like a prophecy foretelling the fact that good would one day prevail over evil and none can stop it.

What do you think? Am I just in too way too much?

Iarwain · 05-18-2003, 04:44 PM

Hm. Perhaps we are over analyzing? Or maybe one was male and the other was female? Or they were a mere plot device to waste some of the dwarves arrows?

Iarwain

Reach for they sky, don't dig in the dirt.

ainur · 05-18-2003, 07:14 PM

I think it was just a deer. This is "The Hobbit" after all, not something intended to be deeper. It was just a deer.

[ May 18, 2003: Message edited by: ainur ]

GaladrieloftheOlden · 05-18-2003, 07:19 PM

I think that it could just as easily have been a deer as a symbol of some sort, and that we will never know, as Tolkien doesn't mention any more about them, I believe, but it was an interesting thing to notice [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

~Menelien

Iarwain · 05-18-2003, 07:20 PM

Earwen, forgive the sarcasm but I've gotten it. The black deer was a projection of Sauron's sleeping mind on the night before the attack on Dol-Goldur. The white deer, on the other hand was the White council, chasing Sauron away from Dol-Goldur so that he would in the end cause more evil in Mordor (displayed by the loss of the dwarves' final arrows).

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Iarwain

Scott · 05-18-2003, 10:27 PM

Iarwain,
That sounds about as right as I can think it to be, but would Tolkien really have wanted to flex his foreshadowing muscles so much in a children's tale? I suppose he could've been doing so just because he could.
I always took it to just go along with the theme of nothing ever being able to harm the good. In the same context as "I am the keeper of the Flame of Anor...etc." type passages. Hmmm.

Legolas · 05-18-2003, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Hm. Perhaps we are over analyzing? Or maybe one was male and the other was female? Or they were a mere plot device to waste some of the dwarves arrows?

'Over-analyze'? Tolkien? Have you read his letters? Everything had [has] purpose. Even if there was no intended meaning, this is quite certainly the place for 'over-analyzation' of Tolkien's work - anything and everything about them (within good taste). [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Back to the topic...

Perhaps it was a little Gandalf foreshadowing. Think about it!

[ May 19, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Bill Ferny · 05-18-2003, 11:17 PM

A white hart appears at the marriage of Arthur and Guenever and leads Sir Gawaine on a rather reckless adventure in which he inadvertently kills a maiden due to his refusal to give quarter to a vanquished knight.

Perhaps more pertinent, the color white was favored by the Celts to designate supernatural animals. According to Irish myth, Finn goes into the otherworld, a place ruled by the Tuatha de Danann, after chasing a white stag. The Tuatha de Danann and their Otherworld, sidhe, which according to most myths is hidden underground, could have been an inspiration for Tolkien’s wood elves and their underground home in Mirkwood. The white dear may be Tolkien recalling this Celtic myth by making a connection between the dwarves fruitlessly attempting to chase down a white deer and their coming adventure in the home of the wood elves.

the witch king · 05-19-2003, 12:10 PM

Its the deer that Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lucy Pevensie hunt at the end of the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe!

***Mister Underhill*** · 05-19-2003, 12:26 PM

Some of us had fun a while back examining the symbolism of this scene in this thread. See especially Sharkey's erudite analysis in the last post of the thread.

05-18-2003, 04:37 PM	#1
elven maiden Earwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A world that never was and never will be Posts: 1,300	White Deer In the Hobbit when the dwarves were crossing the river. A dark deer jumped out. Seconds later a white one appeared. The dwarves shot at it but they either missed or the arrows had no effect on the deer. Who was the second deer? I always thought the deer was: 1) A spirit of good. I always thought that the black deer might have been bad. The white deer was the good that came to drive the darkness from the forest. 2) Or it was a symbol. Much like the above the white dwarf was a symbol of good, and the black was a symbol evil. It showed how both groups were strong but it was like a prophecy foretelling the fact that good would one day prevail over evil and none can stop it. What do you think? Am I just in too way too much? __________________ We pillage and plunder, we rifle and loot, Drink up me hearties, Yo Ho. the looniest site in the world!!!

05-18-2003, 04:44 PM	#2
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Hm. Perhaps we are over analyzing? Or maybe one was male and the other was female? Or they were a mere plot device to waste some of the dwarves arrows? Iarwain Reach for they sky, don't dig in the dirt. __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

05-18-2003, 07:14 PM	#3
ainur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Minneapolis MN Posts: 72	I think it was just a deer. This is "The Hobbit" after all, not something intended to be deeper. It was just a deer. [ May 18, 2003: Message edited by: ainur ] __________________ Yet all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

05-18-2003, 07:19 PM	#4
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,514	I think that it could just as easily have been a deer as a symbol of some sort, and that we will never know, as Tolkien doesn't mention any more about them, I believe, but it was an interesting thing to notice [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ~Menelien __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."

05-18-2003, 07:20 PM	#5
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Earwen, forgive the sarcasm but I've gotten it. The black deer was a projection of Sauron's sleeping mind on the night before the attack on Dol-Goldur. The white deer, on the other hand was the White council, chasing Sauron away from Dol-Goldur so that he would in the end cause more evil in Mordor (displayed by the loss of the dwarves' final arrows). [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

05-18-2003, 10:27 PM	#6
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	Iarwain, That sounds about as right as I can think it to be, but would Tolkien really have wanted to flex his foreshadowing muscles so much in a children's tale? I suppose he could've been doing so just because he could. I always took it to just go along with the theme of nothing ever being able to harm the good. In the same context as "I am the keeper of the Flame of Anor...etc." type passages. Hmmm. __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

05-18-2003, 11:17 PM	#8
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	A white hart appears at the marriage of Arthur and Guenever and leads Sir Gawaine on a rather reckless adventure in which he inadvertently kills a maiden due to his refusal to give quarter to a vanquished knight. Perhaps more pertinent, the color white was favored by the Celts to designate supernatural animals. According to Irish myth, Finn goes into the otherworld, a place ruled by the Tuatha de Danann, after chasing a white stag. The Tuatha de Danann and their Otherworld, sidhe, which according to most myths is hidden underground, could have been an inspiration for Tolkien’s wood elves and their underground home in Mirkwood. The white dear may be Tolkien recalling this Celtic myth by making a connection between the dwarves fruitlessly attempting to chase down a white deer and their coming adventure in the home of the wood elves. __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

05-19-2003, 12:10 PM	#9
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	Its the deer that Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lucy Pevensie hunt at the end of the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe! __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

05-19-2003, 12:26 PM	#10
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,743	Some of us had fun a while back examining the symbolism of this scene in this thread. See especially Sharkey's erudite analysis in the last post of the thread.