Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[Kuruharan]

Why didn't Thorin just crown himself King of the Blue Mountains while he was there? Was there some sort of wealth level requirement that had to be satisfied before he could do that? Were the Blue Mountains just too ghetto for any self-respecting dwarf to want to have his kingdom there?

I am curious because before the dwarves didn't seem to have any particular objection to setting up new homelands as the need arose. When they were driven out of Khazad-dum, they went to the Lonely Mountain, to the Grey Mountains and back again but after they were driven out of Erebor no other place than Erebor seemed good enough.

I am curious as to why.

[Inziladun]

Interesting question. Even leaving aside Thorin, why wouldn't one of his forebears have thought of doing so?

Perhaps the legacies of the ruined Nogrod and Belegost soured the Dwarves on the Ered Luin, though we're told in UT and LOTR that they retained mines there that were still in use at the time of the War of the Ring.

Also, establishing a new kingdom there could have been seen as a sign of disrespect, especially when the vanished cities had been the homes of other clans, the Firebeards and the Longbeams.

[Pitchwife]

Off the top of my head, maybe there already was a Dwarven King of the Blue Mountains when Thorin came there. I mean, do we know what happened to the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod (the Firebeards and Broadbeams, IIRC) after the drowning of Beleriand? Did they all migrate eastward and merge with the Longbeards of Khazad-dûm, or was there a Dwarven community of some size left in Third Age Ered Luin? If the latter, I guess they would have had a king of their own - who would certainly have harboured and honoured Thorin, but would have been wary of any attempt to usurp his throne or set up another kingdom in the neighborhood.

To answer your more general question, I think the Dwarves, even if forced by necessity to set up new dwellings if driven out of their old ones, didn't forget their former homes so easily. They never gave up the dream of retaking Khazad-dûm, as Thrór's and Balin's stories show; and as long as this wasn't possible, Erebor seems to have been the thing coming closest to Home for them. Or maybe they were just fed up with being pushed around across the map. On the meta-level, we know Tolkien modelled his Dwarves in TH and LotR on the Jews to some degree, and there's something very Jewish in this longing of a wandering people for the Promised Land - Dwarven zionism, if you like.

(x-ed with Zil)

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Why didn't Thorin just crown himself King of the Blue Mountains while he was there? Was there some sort of wealth level requirement that had to be satisfied before he could do that? Were the Blue Mountains just too ghetto for any self-respecting dwarf to want to have his kingdom there?

Typically I can't lay my hand on UT just now but I seem to remember in the Quest of Erebor Gandalf says that the dwarves were in very reduced circumstances in the Blue Mountains scraping a living. It was probably too pitiful and existance by comparison to declare oneself king of such an impoverished community - as the Chieftains of the Dunedain did not call themselves King or Elrond designate himself "High King of the Noldor" after Gil-galad - there was just too few and nothing that could really be called a realm.

[LadyBrooke]

After a search that found this,

Originally Posted by UT, in the Tale of G&C

Many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers.

which would support Ered Luin being diminished...and the quote of Gandalf's about Thorin being in exile:

For just as I was nearing Bree I was overtake by Thorin Oakenshield, who lived then in exile beyond the the northwestern borders of the Shire.

Which leads me to suspect that Thorin was more like one of the government's in exile during the World Wars, who didn't try to establish new kingdoms or countries.

I still have not managed to find the quote you're talking about, Mith...of course, that's likely because I've never studied the dwarves in the detail I have the elves. That's also why I have no real thoughts on this...

[Inziladun]

Another thought: the major Dwarven settlements we see in the books seem to have been chosen for their proximity to precious metals. At least that can be said for Khazad-dûm and mithril.

I don't know if it's ever said what sort of metals or gems were found in the Blue Mountains, but the Dwarves had quite a long time to search them while Nogrod and Belegost were standing. The range was diminished after the War of Wrath and the drowning of Beleriand, so maybe by Thorin Oakenshield's time the Dwarves saw Ered Luin as being mostly played out, and thus not a suitable place to establish a new, grandiose dwarf-kingdom.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

I still have not managed to find the quote you're talking about, Mith...of course, that's likely because I've never studied the dwarves in the detail I have the elves. That's also why I have no real thoughts on this...

Ah well I am more of an elf-fancier myself. I haven't found UT yet but in the Hobbit Thorin says "Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time our family was driven out of the far North, and came back with all their wealth and tools" (my italics). After Smaug's attack on the lonely mountain "we went away, and we have had to earn our livings as best we could up and down the lands, often sinking as low as blacksmith-work or even coal-mining".

If this is my sole source I am I bit surprised since I read the Hobbit so seldom compared to UT and it will bug me til I find what I think I was remembering! But at least I haven't imagined it entirely...

[Kuruharan]

leaving aside Thorin, why wouldn't one of his forebears have thought of doing so

Because I needed a nice clear and concise title to get my point across.

maybe there already was a Dwarven King of the Blue Mountains when Thorin came there. I mean, do we know what happened to the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod (the Firebeards and Broadbeams, IIRC) after the drowning of Beleriand? Did they all migrate eastward and merge with the Longbeards of Khazad-dûm

We never hear of a king or two already being there but that doesn't entirely rule out the possibility. I had always had the impression that Belegost and Nogrod were both destroyed in the drowning of Beleriand, but there were still some dwarves there.

as the Chieftains of the Dunedain did not call themselves King or Elrond designate himself "High King of the Noldor" after Gil-galad - there was just too few and nothing that could really be called a realm.

That is a very interesting parallel I had not thought of before.

the major Dwarven settlements we see in the books seem to have been chosen for their proximity to precious metals

Also a distinct possibility.

It probably was some combination of the above...or it could have been Tolkien was trying to tell a story and Thorin being content where he was would have ruined it.

[Rumil]

iirc Thorin had 'Halls' in the Blue Mountains but no doubt they weren't a patch on Erebor.

I think Thorin (or was it Gandalf?) complained that they were mere coal-miners these days, presumably rather than gold- or mithril- miners and master jewellers and craftsmen.

But I like the idea that Thorin refused to even hint at giving up his claim to being King of Erebor by taking or creating some lesser title. And the views of the original Dwarves of the Blue Mountains must have been a major consideration.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Why didn't Thorin just crown himself King of the Blue Mountains while he was there? Was there some sort of wealth level requirement that had to be satisfied before he could do that? Were the Blue Mountains just too ghetto for any self-respecting dwarf to want to have his kingdom there?

I am curious because before the dwarves didn't seem to have any particular objection to setting up new homelands as the need arose. When they were driven out of Khazad-dum, they went to the Lonely Mountain, to the Grey Mountains and back again but after they were driven out of Erebor no other place than Erebor seemed good enough.

I am curious as to why.

I haven't read the other replies yet, so someone might have covered this already.

If I remember correctly, Thorin and Co were described as scratching a rather meager living in the Blue Mountains. I would imagine that most of the dwarves lived under the same conditions, and this would be a pretty poor foundation for a new kingdom compared to the wealth that lay at Erebor.

I would also add that there is an undeniable and powerful mystique about returning to one's roots. It is a sociological drive which we have seen many times in history (how many times have people tried to resurrect the Roman Empire?) and which continues today (the Jews of Israel).

[Kuruharan]

It is a sociological drive which we have seen many times in history

Very interesting point you bring up there.

[Kuruharan]

This will be a long bit of background so bear with me...

I was ruminating about the fate of the seven rings and where those rings might have been bestowed. Thinking of the fate of the Broadbeams and Firebeards and their potential merger with the Longbeards, If the peoples had merged, I wondered if two of the rings might have been given to great lords of the Longbeards in addition to the king.

While this might be an idea worthy of its own topic, I discarded it because the Longbeards in the books that referenced the rings never gave any indication that more than one ring was ever given to Durin's Folk. My other thought (more based on the nature of the rings and their maker than anything) is that more than one ring would not co-exist with another well in the same realm.

Thrown back upon the original notion of the rings were given to the leaders of the seven dwarf peoples, it was thus inescapable that all seven peoples survived to some extent as independent entities.

How does all this relate to this topic?

My thought now turns to what Pitchwife said in post #3...

Off the top of my head, maybe there already was a Dwarven King of the Blue Mountains when Thorin came there.

Maybe that was exactly it. Maybe since the Kings of the Broadbeams and Firebeards were already in the remains of the Blue Mountains it would be considered very rude indeed for Thorin to make himself a king there since he might have been there in some sense as a guest. This might also explain why the Longbeards there were in a relatively resource poor area, the surviving Broadbeams and Firebeards were living in the surviving better areas.

I'm not proposing that significant populations of Broadbeams and Firebeards existed, but that their royal lineages did and there were enough remaining members to sustain distinct communities. Tolkien nowhere said all dwarves abandonded the Blue Mountains after the First Age, just "most."

Or maybe there were more survivors than we might think since the remains of the Blue Mountains were in the sleepiest part of Middle-earth where nothing ever happened and there was little reason to describe goings on there again.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not proposing that significant populations of Broadbeams and Firebeards existed, but that their royal lineages did and there were enough remaining members to sustain distinct communities. Tolkien nowhere said all dwarves abandonded the Blue Mountains after the First Age, just "most."

I'm inclined to think that if there were remnants of the other Dwarven lines in the Ered Luin in the Third Age, they were so small as to be really just settlements, nothing as grand as kingdoms.
Since Thorin's line was of the Longbeards, making him Durin's heir, I doubt Dwarves of other houses would have had much of a problem sharing the mountains with his own relatively small people.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm inclined to think that if there were remnants of the other Dwarven lines in the Ered Luin in the Third Age, they were so small as to be really just settlements, nothing as grand as kingdoms.

Undoubtedly not, but they were still in the mountain range where they awoke which would perhaps provide something of a confidence boost. Perhaps the leaders of the Broadbeams and Firebeards never left...in fact, I would suspect they did not.

Since Thorin's line was of the Longbeards, making him Durin's heir, I doubt Dwarves of other houses would have had much of a problem sharing the mountains with his own relatively small people.

Sharing, they clearly had no problem with that. However, making a new "kingdom" there might have been something they would object to.