The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-03-2000, 06:22 AM   #1
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,951
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring The Downfall of Numenor

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 142
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
After generations of discontent, Sauron convinces Ar-Pharazon to attack Aman with the well known result that Numenor becomes known as Atalante, a very wet place to be. JRRT implies, in Akallabeth, that the Valar turned the matter over to Eru, who drowns Numenor and changes the nature of the world, because the Valar were tasked to foster the Children of Iluvatar, not do battle with them. My question(s) is why did the Valar let it go that far and why didn't they just defeat Ar-Pharazon?

The Valar had a well-established method of preventing persons from Middle Earth from reaching Valinor via the creation of the Shadowy Isles and the hiding of their island. Surely this could have been done to prevent an invasion from Numenor. A way could have been found to allow elves to go west while keeping the way closed for mortals.

Also, it appears from Akallabeth that the Valar were not prohibited from slaying Numenoreans. Some were struck by lightning as the rebellion began. Ships were lost in the ocean. Why couldn't the Valar have defeated the rebels, leaving the faithful to restore the realm?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2000, 09:24 AM   #2
Voronwe
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Gondolin
Posts: 413
Voronwe has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

Ar-Pharazon almost turned back when he saw Taniquetil and the shores of Valinor. What if he had? The Valar couldn't simply destroy him and his fleet until he had actually landed in Aman and claimed the land for himself.


-Voronwë
"Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien."</p>
__________________
"If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes
Voronwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2000, 09:32 AM   #3
Sharkű
Hungry Ghoul
 
Sharkű's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,721
Sharkű has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul
Posts: 467
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

Very good questions to which answers are hard to find, but looking in the Silmarillion can lead to some more or less possible conclusions.
Hey Voronwe, you just took my point while I was writing. Well that one, and the fact that the Numenoreans reached Valinor in first place may have been due to either the will of the Valar who wanted to grant Ar-Pharazon a last chance to repent when looking at Oiolosse, or the might of Sauron. The Numenorean fleet was shrouded by a giant dark cloud, this could as well have been a protection cast by Sauron the Deceiver upon the fleet so that they would make it and get their chance to wage war upon Valinor. Maybe his power was great enough to assure a safe passage, and the Valar did not want to hinder this by force.

</p>
Sharkű is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2000, 10:12 AM   #4
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,951
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 145
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

I'd hate to believe that Sauron was powerful enough to ensure safe passage. As to the Valar wishing not to use force, if true this resulted in a use of far greater force. Ulmo, Osse and Uinen could have stopped the fleet or whittled away at it until the rebels saw the error of their ways. Manwe could have brought heavy winds to force the fleet to retreat. A partial show of force establishing the futility of the rebel's actions could have caused them to rethink the course they had taken. Imagine public opinion if Ar-Pharazon invested such great effort into prosecuting a war which not only cannot be won but also cannot even be fought because the Valar would't allow it.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2000, 07:01 AM   #5
Sharkű
Hungry Ghoul
 
Sharkű's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,721
Sharkű has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul
Posts: 470
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

Maybe Ar-Pharazon could never possibly have seen the errors of his ways without the sight of Taniquetil and the brilliance of the Valar. He would have stayed the way he was anyway. And he could have still been under Sauron's influence.

</p>
Sharkű is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2000, 07:41 AM   #6
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,951
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 151
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

Stated simply, they were too far gone? JRRT in Letters states that, other than perhaps Morgoth, nothing is utterly irredeemable, even the orcs. So why destroy Numenor? Why not hide Valinor again? And why leave the dirty work to Iluvatar?

I have no real answer either, other than perhaps JRRT wanted to incorporate Atlantis into his mythos (he used to dream about the ever-rising wave and ultimately &quot;assigned&quot; this dream to Faramir). Akallabeth was the only way to bring that myth within his subcreated world.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2000, 09:34 AM   #7
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 64
Re: The Downfall of Numenor


The more time passes, the less valar can do - their knowledge increases but meanwhile their power is diminished, and field of choice narrowed. All that is to be was sung before Illuvatar, and little can be avoided, and, also, we must not forget, that, though valar were much more powerful than men, they are createrus too, spirits of the same rank and order of which numenoreans were and we are now. Can you imagine some christian asking, why angels are not coming enflamed in wrath to kill (physically!) all of those sinners living on earth? I think they do get offended by our behavior, cause we are breaking many bans every day. Nothing is without Eru's sanction, so they waited for him to judge what was to be done.
Still more - those stepping on blessed realm's shore where not killed, but sleep in the caves until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom. this is really interesting problem, in fact - I think than they will have to make their choice - on which side to fight, and this choice granted due to Ar-Pharazons hesitation at Taniquetil's sight.
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 11-22-2004 at 05:15 AM. Reason: rags of old code.
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2000, 11:12 AM   #8
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,951
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 154
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Downfall of Numenor

Your last point about the Numenoreans who landed on Valinor being merely asleep and whose side they will fight on in Dagor Dagprath is interesting.

On the Music of the Ainur, the scope of the music was limited and did not touch upon all matters or all details. The vision of Arda which followed ended early, though precisely when is unknown. Some say it ended before the coming of the Children. Others say before the rebellion of the Noldor. I think the earlier is the more likely. As a result only the Ainur who took part in a particular portion of a theme understand that portion, with Mandos and Manwe knowing more because they participated to some extent in all portions.

However, man is utterly unpredictable. Iluvatar gave man a &quot;new gift&quot;. &quot;Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Valar, which is as fate to all things else...&quot; Sil. p.41.

Man is not strictly governed by fate, except, as I have argued here and on other boards before the Downs came into existence, to the extent they intertwine themselves in the affairs of the Eldar. In fact, I will start one or more threads to discuss this issue again. Anyway, not &quot;all was sung&quot; in the Music, and as to men, much can be avoided because man is not subject to such &quot;fate&quot; or &quot;predestination&quot; as might have been established by the Music.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2000, 08:55 AM   #9
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 68
Re: The Downfall of Numenor


A good reply indeed.
Yes, Valar can not govern man's fate, nor predict his movements in the future,only deduce out of their great knowledge and wisdom, cause it was in a independent theme of Illuvatar. I was pointing at that when explaining the silence of the Valar till the last moment. but also I pointed (maybe not so clearly as I liked) that the shape of the Arda was changed by Eru himself, he was a judge of numenoreans, not the Powers. I can give a citation as well
Quote:
Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Illuvatar, and for that time laid down their goverment of Arda.
(Silm77, Akallabeth, p335)

but for that time only, mind you! They (numenoreans) sleep in the caves indeed - it's mentioned on the same page, some paragraph or two lower.

As about the choice granted for the mightiest army of men ever gathered in the Last Battle due to Ar-Pharazon's hesitetion in the end, it's merely my own speculatin, based on some deduction+intuition. I never ever mind anyone to disagree with that. But they do sleep and do await their doom to be accoplished, and that was done by Eru, who knows the Music and all that is, and is not.

Edited by: HerenIstarion at: 10/5/00 11:08:39 am
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 11-22-2004 at 05:23 AM. Reason: same as above
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2000, 10:08 AM   #10
Voronwe
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Gondolin
Posts: 413
Voronwe has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 27
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Downfall of Numenor

I always wonder how Elendil, who is named in Unfinished Tales as the author of the Akallabeth, knew what happened to Ar-Pharazon and his army after they broke the ban of the Valar.

The only people to come to Middle Earth who might have know what happened were the wizards, but they came a long time after the downfall, during the Third age, and I can't imagine them making any changes to the annals of Gondor, from which the Akallabeth was supposed to be taken.
Perhaps Elendil got the information from one of his palantirs (is that the correct plural?). Gandalf seems to hint that you can use the palantirs to look back in time.

Of course, the story itself wouldn't have been nearly as good if Ar-Pharazon simply vanished without explaination!


-Voronwë
"Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien."</p>
__________________
"If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes
Voronwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2000, 10:23 AM   #11
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,951
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 160
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Downfall of Numenor

A new point. Read carefully the section of the Sil. cited by HerenIstarion. It says that Eru changed the nature of the world, drowning Numenor and removing the Undying Lands from Arda. It then goes on to say that a landslide buries the Numenorean army encamped around the hill of Tuna (Bill Parcells is big but I wouldn't call him a hill <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b"> ). It does not say that Eru did this. Could the Valar have done it?

BTW, MM over at Suite 101 wrote an article about Numenor stating that Tirion was destroyed at that time. Akallabeth says the landslide was from the hills, and Tuna was in a gap in the Mountains of Valinor, certainly not the only hill around. Is there any real evidence that Tirion was destroyed?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2000, 08:26 AM   #12
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 70
Re: The Downfall of Numenor


Voronwe, I don't really think Tuna was destroyed, but I have no arguments for now - gotta check some data. Correct plural for palantir is palantiri

Mithadan - You are right - there is nowhere mentioned Eru throwing stones at Ar-Pharazon , but, in fact, you never see him acting directly, save maybe in the uttermost beginning, when he made a vision of Ea and than made it to be. Really the whole burden of creating afterwords is loaded upon Valar's shoulders, they are those who create build, govern and make decisions, and they act with their own free will, and judge by their own, according the measure of each one's understending, wisdom and knowledge. Eru's figure is somehow dimmed and distanced, and valar are, I daresay, independent in their movements. But don.t forget this citation

Quote:
Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Illuvatar, and for that time laid down their goverment of Arda.
(Silm77, Akallabeth, p335)

So, we can assume, that, maybe, those erthquakes and all the stuff of falling stones were caused by Manwe, but now it was not wish of his own, or the councel of some of his mates, he acted as a puppet, a weapon of Eru - the decision was not Manwe's, and he was directly ordered by Illuvatar (as I said above, valar are creatures of the same rank as men are, and have no right to force men anyway). According to that i stated that numenorean's sleep was drawn by Eru himself. (even if those who made it possible practically - enchanted camping warriors, were Valar)
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 11-22-2004 at 05:28 AM.
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2000, 09:59 AM   #13
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 71
Re: The Downfall of Numenor


Forgive me, Mithadan, in the heat of debate I forget the question - one to start the whole affair you asked why it all went so far – my answer:

Quote:
The more time passes, the less valar can do - their knowledge increases but meanwhile their power is diminished, and field of choice narrowed.
is right, but narower then choice of the valar. To light some another corner of the problem, I’ve got to fall back a bit from JRRT and put in some religious and philosophical conceptions. So, here we are:

Obedience and acceptance are virtues, which are God’s gifts. All of the virtues cause joy, which is also God’s gift. God’s creatures are meant to live in joy .Therefore one obedient is joyful. But Human (or any speaking people of JRRT’s (not counting orcs, debate on which is still going on – are them creatures gifted with fea or not)) is creature who is gifted with free will too, and right of choice, and can not be forced to be obedient. The whole meaning of this virtue is lost then, and obedience is virtue no more. still more – one obedient not out of his own free will looses the joy of it. Now one not joyfull is not blessed by the Lord, cause virtues are gone, but their place is not empty – one rejecting God’s gift is a sinner, and vice comes instead.

now back to JRRT. First numenoreans are obedient out of free will – they have the Ban which they do not understand, but, even lacking knowledge, data, they believe and accept, and don’t doubt the rightfulness of that, which is ordered by one higher then themselves – Manwe, who is performing God’s – Eru’s will. Therefore they have joy – they are free, and longlived, and happy. Yes, they are tempted to reach it, but God never tempts, temptetion comes from Melkor, the greater part of who’s will is dissolved in the metter of Arda (which is therefore Arda Marred). To overcome this temptetion is also act of free will and acceptance, and virtue, which brings joy. Now imagine Valar shadowing and misting their land. Reaching Aman becomes impossible. In fact, numenoreans are robbed of their free will, and become obedient by force – there is no way to reach blessed realm. The virtue is gone, and joy is lost, but temptetion remains. Now they wish for something impossible, which is still more severe sin.

Now the question rises – why, if it was so important, Aman was hidden after the Fall? Answer is simple – It is well known, that men are guests here on earth.But even if Eldar have no knowledge where do they abode afterwords, it is assumed that their souls (fea) are trained here, though purpose of this training is not known. Now, one curled up neatly and comfortably in one’s armchair sipping his/her favorite drinks can not be trained, but degenerates bit by bit. Numenoreans, the mightiest human race ever to be, had no other trials but this ONE Ban. All came easy to them, all was in their reach, and their fea could not have been trained otherwise than via this Ban (some kind of totalgym for their souls On the other hand, men in middle earth had for their souls plenty of multitude of trials to strenghten them and perfect themselves, so the trial of Aman Opened was needed no more.

Now numenoreans breaking this Ban became worse then orcs (I mean beast-orcs, not eldar or atani tortured by Morgoth), because one falling from a higher level falls deeper on the scale than one standing low from the beginning. They were seduced, but not by Sauron – he was a kind of the last drop, but by their own pride, which is opposite to obedience and acceptance. They started by rejecting the Lord’s gift, and ended up rejecting the Lord himself, wich is severest sin possible to commit. Still they were not punished – harm made to phisical body, hroa, in this case can not be counted as a punishment, but the decision was delayed somehow – here we have their eternal sleep until the day of Doom, which, maybe. is due to Ar-Pharazon’s hesitation in the end, or, still maybe a sign of the great mercy of the Lord who loves his children anyway. But their land was polluted by them, and had to be destroyed. So we got Atalante instead of Elenna.(cf history of Sodom)

Edited by: HerenIstarion at: 10/7/00 12:09:05 am
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 11-22-2004 at 05:38 AM. Reason: old code again
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2000, 08:28 AM   #14
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,951
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 163
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Downfall of Numenor

An intriguing theological discourse. Notwithstanding my personal beliefs, I prefer to remain secular here. I would not argue that JRRT's works do not contain theological, and often judeo-christian, undertones. However, this is inherent to the nature of mythology and the saga, the style or genre of JRRT's writings. Despite his suggestions that he desired to write fairy stories for children and adults, what he wrote was in the nature of norse epics or icelandic sagas. His sources are well documented.

While JRRT writes of morality, good vs. evil and other theological topics in his tales, the inclusion of such topics was necessarily a component of the genre he was working in. Would I rule out JRRT's conscious inclusion of such undertones? Of course not. But was his work intended to be theological in nature as opposed to merely containing &quot;classic&quot; philosophical/theological implications? In my opinion, the answer is no. Nonetheless, the reader has the opportunity to gain what he or she may from the work, whether mere enjoyment and suspension of disbelief or theological inspiration. This is yet another example of why JRRT's writings are so well received and appreciated. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 10/7/00 10:31:16 am
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2000, 08:46 AM   #15
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
Mister Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,741
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 80
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Downfall of Numenor

You make many interesting points, H.I., and I don't have time to explore all of them in detail. I think you're fairly on the mark about the reasons why the Numenoreans were not restrained from their foolhardy quest by the Valar. However, I thought I'd chip in my two cents to say that I don't know if the Valar were quite as independent, or Illuvatar as distant, as you suggest. It says in Silma that Manwe &quot;governed the world under the hand of Illuvatar&quot;, and often in times of difficult decision, we read something like this: &quot;Manwe sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Illuvatar was revealed.&quot;

Illuvatar may seem to be distant or disinterested in the troubles of the people of Arda, but I think this is merely shortsightedness on the part of those who are suffering. In the Ainulindale, Illuvatar makes this declaration: &quot;...no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.&quot;

Illuvatar is just quietly confident that even evil purposes will result in good in the end.

</p>
Mister Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2000, 12:51 PM   #16
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 73
Re: The Downfall of Numenor


Quote:
Nonetheless, the reader has the opportunity to gain what he or she may from the work, whether mere enjoyment and suspension of disbelief or theological inspiration.
thank you, Mithadan, I see your point But i lack knowledge in Norse and German mythologies, so i could not have been so bold to comment the influences of those legends on the problem of the Ban of the Valar. If my memory is not failing me, I made a remark there in my post, that I'm trying to have a little light on one, and only one (it was named another there) aspect of this problem. So, if we have any scholars of Nordic legend, they are welcome to fill the flaws of my post.

Quote:
I don't know if the Valar were quite as independent, or Illuvatar as distant, as you suggest.
thank you, mr Underhill, I simply wanted to underline that in that case Valar were completely dependent, performing Eru's will directly,without trace of their own decisions, not as usual, when Manwe, having general knowledge in what Eru's will was, was merely consulting, asking a good advice, if I am allowed to put it that way

Edited by: HerenIstarion at: 10/7/00 3:45:42 pm
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 11-22-2004 at 05:44 AM. Reason: code. In all instances language of the original retained. I don't speak like that now ;)
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2000, 11:45 AM   #17
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,951
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 165
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Downfall of Numenor

HerenIstarion - I do not claim there are flaws in your reasonaing. We are discussing a point for which there may be no explanation without speaking to JRRT himself (who may also not have a specific explanation other than he was writing a good yarn). Any of the guesses made above may be, in whole or part, correct. We can, at best, extrapolate from what was written, seeking an answer consisten with the mythos.

Please do not interpret my response as suggesting you should not theorize from a theological perspective. JRRT was a Catholic and his religion influenced his writing. However, he denies allegory in his work and I personally do not believe he intended to sermonize. The joy in JRRT's work and this board is that we may wander along with theory upon theory about an unanswerable point without lacking support in our positions. This is both a credit to JRRT and the posters of the Downs. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2000, 06:11 PM   #18
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 76
Re: The Downfall of Numenor


Thx Mithadan, now I see your point indeed
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 11-22-2004 at 05:58 AM.
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2001, 11:07 AM   #19
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Shade of Carn Dűm
Posts: 492
Re: The Downfall of Numenor


now I have been poking in older posts and I want to refresh this one - first of all because the problem always seemed interesting to me, and, also, because many ppl have joined the dawns since, who's opinion may proove worth attention and interesting. As it was said once, three heads are better than one

HerenIstarion
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 11-22-2004 at 06:01 AM.
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2001, 12:41 PM   #20
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,951
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 557
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

You have three heads? <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2001, 08:37 AM   #21
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Shade of Carn Dűm
Posts: 498
Re: The Downfall of Numenor


right. forth is still growing just now, but don't you worry, I'll tell you when it's full grown

HerenIstarion
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 11-22-2004 at 06:07 AM.
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2001, 03:46 PM   #22
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,951
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 585
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

Hmmmm. Just came across something relevant.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion - for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world.&quot; Letters, #156 <hr></blockquote>

Now this is odd. Does this mean the Ban had no &quot;teeth&quot;? The Valar could not punish Pharazon and his followers for their rebellion? If Eru had not interceded, the Numenoreans could have set up household in Valinor? Doesn't this militate even further in favor of preventing the rebellion from reaching the shores of Valinor, whether via winds or a new chain of Shadowy Islands?

And does this jive with the facts? Weren't Numenoreans struck by lightning as the rebellion simmered? Didn't the army of Valinor also battle men during the War of Wrath?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2001, 07:21 PM   #23
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 609
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Didn't the army of Valinor also battle men during the War of Wrath?<hr></blockquote>
That's different. In the War of Wrath they were fighting against Morgoth.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2001, 07:35 PM   #24
Orald
Shadow of Malice
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: right behind you
Posts: 843
Orald has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Orald Send a message via Yahoo to Orald
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
Posts: 507
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

And who do you think was behind the Akallabeth? Sauron, minion of Morgoth

"It seems fate is not without a sense of irony."</p>
Orald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2001, 07:42 PM   #25
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 610
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

But he wasn't the ruler. He was just an advisor.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2001, 07:44 PM   #26
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 2,951
Mithadan has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 587
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

Sauron was a rebel himself and didn't follow the rules


--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
__________________
That which once was shall be again!
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2001, 01:50 PM   #27
jallanite
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 479
jallanite is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator
Posts: 77
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Downfall of Numenor

From the Milton Waldman letter, published as letter 151 in Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien and in the second edition of the The Silmarillion:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed. A chasm is opened in the sea and Tar-Calion and his armada is engulfed. Númenor itself on the edge of the reft topples and vanishes for ever with all its glory in the abyss.<hr></blockquote>In this account it is made clear that the armada could have caused harm to Valinor, especially if the Valar and Maiar were, in most circumstances, not supposed to interfere with Men. Also, the resulting Change of the World was effectively done by the Valar and not by Eru directly.

None of this answers the basic questions of this thread.

I think the effect Tolkien wanted to put forth was of very powerful beings, who might be called gods, but who were not allowed to meet this kind of unbelievable threat, mortals whom they were generally not supposed to meddle with, but were attacking them.

Something has to break the impasse.

The change in weather, the storms, the foundering of ships, and the lightning bolts are perhaps a mistake by Tolkien. These are the kinds of signs by which gods let their will be known in old tales. They are displeased. So:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied that lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would.<hr></blockquote>Realistically this is inexplicable,

Perhaps Sauron knew that he was in no danger (it was just a lightning storm and he would probably be lucky) as the dome was no longer the highest point in the city and lighting would be unlikely to strike there again.

Perhaps Manwë or some Maiar under his command were actually only flinging down lightning bolts at random, but because they were doing it more often, more men god hit. Again Sauron could play the odds.

If Manwë or some Maiar under his command were actually trying to hit particular people, and they didn't go for Sauron, or couldn't hit him, that certainly doesn't make them appear very competent.

Of course late Myths Transformed Tolkien might have explained it something like this: T

This is a legend preserved among the survivors of the sinking. In fact the earth has always been round. To some degree other distortions must have occurred. Perhaps a normal thunder storm happened and by chance the temple dome was broken, Sauron made a brilliant recovery, and the accounts of many others being struck by lightning in that period were exagerated by Sauron, to gain support for his plans. Actually no more were injured by lightning in those days than at any other time.

All this is guesswork.

As to how we know the fate of the amada and of Ar-Pharazôn and those who landed in Valinor, recall that the version on which the account in the published Silmarillion was based is presented as related to Ćlfwine in Eressëa, probably by Pengolodh. Christopher Tolkien removed references to this setting. See his account in The Peoples of Middle-Earth (HoME 12), chapter V, &quot;The History of the Akallabęth&quot;.

As JRRT wrote it there would be no problem.

</p>
jallanite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2002, 04:06 AM   #28
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Sting

Plunge in, ppl
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2002, 12:36 PM   #29
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,042
Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Boots

It is quite extraordinary to see these early threads! Forgive me if my question has been answered on other early threads; I haven't found any which did.

Mithadan wrote:
Quote:
I have no real answer either, other than perhaps JRRT wanted to incorporate Atlantis into his mythos (he used to dream about the ever-rising wave and ultimately "assigned" this dream to Faramir). Akallabeth was the only way to bring that myth within his subcreated world.
This in answer to his [Mithadan's] initial question of why was Numenor destroyed when the Valar could simply have stopped Al-Pharazon.

While I do not have the intimate acquaintance with and understanding of The Silm which many of you have, I would like to ask whether the myth of Atlantis was the only flood myth which Tolkien was incorporating into his mythology? I am asking out of interest in questions of literary creation.

Bethberry
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2002, 12:42 PM   #30
Gandalf_theGrey
Visionary Spirit
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 633
Gandalf_theGrey has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

It seems we're thinking alike, Bethberry. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

While reading through this thread earlier this morning, it reminded me of Noah and the Ark. * bows *

Gandalf the Grey
Gandalf_theGrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2002, 09:46 PM   #31
Joy
Spirit of a Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,020
Joy has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

There was one other "Flood" story in the Sil, which is the Sinking of Beleriand. It is found in Chatper XXIV of the Sil. -

In the final battle that saw the ultimate defeat of Morgoth, Beleriand was broken and destroyed - only parts of Ossiriand in the east remained, to be renamed Lindon in later ages.
__________________
God bless,
Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com
http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com

As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?
Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2002, 01:09 AM   #32
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Sting

on floods look Here
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2002, 09:55 AM   #33
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,042
Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bęthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Boots

Thank you, HerenIstarion, for the link to the Orcish Fears thread (a tremendous discussion!), but I cannot find anything in it relevant to my point, so perhaps I need to clarify my entry in this discussion.

Let me begin by quoting Mithadan again. He explained the purpose of this thread as the following:

Quote:
We can, at best, extrapolate from what was written, seeking an answer consistent with the mythos.
This I regard as a philosophical analysis, the internal consistency (or lack thereof) of Tolkien's mythology.

Yet, to my mind, the discussion moved out of the analysis of philosophical consistency with the suggestion that Tolkien's reason for sinking Numenor and not simply stopping Ar-Pharazon's armada was his desire to include the Atlantis myth in his mythology. (This is the point I quoted in my first post here.)

Suggesting that Tolkien wanted to include the Atlantis myth, IMHO, is a question of literary creation or structure rather than logical consistency. It opens up the discussion to Tolkien's imaginative inspiration rather than limit the question solely to logical consistency. It also leads to the question of whether Atlantis was the only myth which Tolkien was working with in The Akallabeth.

I would argue that Tolkien was incorporating at least two other myths as well: that of Noah and the Flood and that of the bending or rounding of the Earth.

(Gandalf the Grey recognized my point here. Joy,I would argue that the Breaking of Beleriand by flood is not related to the Fall of Numenor because it appears as a consequence of the wholesale destruction of land during the wars. At least, to my mind, I cannot see any relationship to the idea of punishment which I see in the Fall of Numenor.)

So, I would argue that Tolkien did not proceed from a desire to create a consistent philosophy or mythos. This is extrapolating philosophy out of fiction. It is interesting and I am not saying it cannot be done. However, I am suggesting that Tolkien's inspiration was that of the creative artist and not the philosopher. That into the question of his canon must come what Harold Bloom called "poetic influence" or "the story of intra-poetic relationships." (The Anxiety of Influence)(I am not here subscribing to his argument wholesale in that I reject his idea that subconscious inspiration can only be understood through the Freudian model of father/son antagonisms.)

What I mean to say is that Tolkien was conflating several sources into his own myth. He was providing revisionary insights of his own. And that where it appears that we have fissures in the philosophy we ought to consider, as Mithadan has suggested, this literary impulse. My point is that such sources of influence need not be limited to one mythological precursor alone. (And this has nothing to do with my own beliefs. It is an argument of literary creation.)

I know only HOME 12 and UT and have just started to read the Letters, so perhaps there is something elsewhere in HOME which can be applied here. My own take on HOME is that is limited mainly to textual questions of chronological primacy and really does not provide extensive discussion of the richness and variety of Tolkien's imaginative creation.

Bethberry

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2002, 04:10 PM   #34
bombur
Wight
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: finland
Posts: 126
bombur has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

I prefer not to go theological, however I do have opinion on the original questions.

”Also, it appears from Akallabeth that the Valar were not prohibited from slaying Numenoreans.... Why couldn't the Valar have defeated the rebels, leaving the faithful to restore the realm?”

The reason to this is rather simple. Valar are rather wiser then the people of our world (and yes, I mean yanks in this particular issue.) There are many things one can do or enforce when one has power, armies etc. But no matter how much power or how great armies one has, you just cannot beat people into loving you and kill them into being loyal to you. (One cannot ”install” democratic governments, one cannot war people into upholding peace, one cannot conquer them into respecting their neighbours sovereignity and freedom, one cannot brutalise people into respecting human rights...)

If Valar go on to ”defeating the rebels” – i.e. the majority fraction of Numenor and install on throne the person they’d like to see there. Then they will propably have to do it again in a generation or so.... and every generation of orphans will hate them more for it. Every generation will speak in more hushed tones of puppet kings of the evil Valar. Every other generation will rebel against a king, behead him, build a new and improved fleet ”that will do the trick that our grandfathers failed to...” and attack Valinor... and again a new generation of orphans is learning of hate under a puppet king. Right or wrong, it is not workable sollution approach.

In the eyes of Valar, the problem is not that there is Ar-Pharazon on the throne. Problem is that the whoever that is currently holding the throne as well as most of Numenoreans think Valar are holding something out from them and have become proud and cruel and lusting for immortality and power. Now how do you solve that problem using force?

Numenoreans made a choise. There is no way that Valar could have prevented them making such choise. Just like they chose in the first age to be enemies of Morgoth they now chose to be the enemies of Valar.

The Valar had a big problem... They were rapidly falling out with the men. As immortal and eternal sees theese things, there was no way of stopping them short of killing them and killing them would make the falling out permanent and mean that they'd have to either destroy Numenor, leave the world themselves or expect to fight them on regular basis every century from then on. Talk about list of unsatisfactory choises. Let us also rember that the Vanayar and Noldor ”year” was something like one and a half solar centuries long. So basically using force to deal with numenoreans would mean that going to war with ”new and improved attackfleet” would become as routine affair as celebration of ones birthday for the Valar and Vanayar. Intolerable state of the affairs. Valar could not see it as option. Valar had made the continents. They did not need Eru for power but for wisdom. I suppose that Eru gave them OK on thinking that if men of Numenor go to war against them they’d be throwing away all the good they’d been rewarded with the isle of Numenor in the first place for. Maybe Erus wisdom included word or two of the Elendils fate and preventing such state of affairs from reoccurring as well.

Valar sent messagers as long as they were welcome. They sent warnings like violent but quite natural thunderstorms. The men chose against them. To warn of their power and wrath as well as advise on their goodwill and gifts was all Valar could do to influence this. In the end Valar had to employ two of their three not-so-desirable options.

Also the blockade of the shadow isles was perhaps slightly obsolete. It was designed to stop occasional stray Teleri pleasure cruising sailboat. Humans of Westernesse were not pleasure cruisers. The power of men is not like that of eleves, but it is not lesser neccesarily. They had since the times of Teleri developed ocean trade and transported armies to middle earth and back. They were great and they came with a great fleet of large galleons of war. What blocked Valinor from Teleri ships coming to beseech for help was likely viewed as ”annoying” by Ar-Pharazons head admiral. Winds were working against them and would have stopped Teleri... It made their slaves work harder
on the oars. Ships were getting lost from the fleet and falling under the spell of the isles, Teleri would not have passed... a warfleets have kind of cohesion, despite irksome attrition the fleet held together and pushed forth.


Janne Harju
bombur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2004, 04:09 AM   #35
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Just because
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2004, 02:22 PM   #36
drigel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
drigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
drigel has just left Hobbiton.
the kernel

I always saw the Akallabęth scenario as the linking myth that unifies the ancient with the latter times. Atlantis, Noah, et al are are touched on. I am no expert, but here is a central theme that can be referenced by many myths that touch on mans arrogance. It seemed to me that before this, humans were just another child of Illuvatar, so to speak. Afterwards, we see the ushering of the dawn of dominance of men.

Reading the earlier discussions made me think about something. I see the what Sauron did with the Fleet as similar to what he indirectly accomplished with the ring to the characters in LOTR. I dont think Ar-Pharazon could turn around the fleet any more than Frodo could turn over the ring to anyone else. This to me is the kernel of Sauron's greatest power.
drigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2011, 07:06 AM   #37
Galin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 956
Galin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithadan
BTW, MM over at Suite 101 wrote an article about Numenor stating that Tirion was destroyed at that time. Akallabeth says the landslide was from the hills, and Tuna was in a gap in the Mountains of Valinor, certainly not the only hill around.

Is there any real evidence that Tirion was destroyed?
Raising the question for possible consideration again. What think the B-Downers of today?
Galin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2011, 04:42 PM   #38
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 8,679
Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Galadriel55 is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Getting struck by lightning or having shipwrecks is not really a direct "murder" by the Valar. Its something that may happen naturally, without any interferance. And if the Valar decided "Hey, let's kill that person!" wouldn't they kill the king, and not random sailors?

Also, I think they wanted to give the Numenorians the last chance to repent. They wouldn't kill anyone; rather, they'd let the "misbehaving children" find their own end. (hey, that's just like Frodo with Saruman in the Shire! )
__________________
"Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself?" - Gandalf
She's Cobbling from beyond the DeadThread! That's next-level cobbling. ~hS, TIG CXV
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:17 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.