T-I-G LXVII: The Rangers of the North - The Fell Winter

[Gwathagor]

No one here? Guess I'll go read what Roa said about Legate since I missed that day.

[Oh, crossed with Nienna]

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Here's my take: the wolves don't need to get one of their number into the Captain at the beginning of the game, since the innocents are more than likely to kill each other anyway - but as the game progresses, it will become more and more important for the wolves to have that lynch-canceling, tie-breaking power of a Captain. Maybe it's not a problem now, but it certainly will be in a Day or two. We'll have to be extra careful who we elect.

Hey, now that was a really, really good point and well said - so I think enough to excuse you for being away for long otherwise. (That doesn't mean, though, that I'd be encouraging you in being away ) Anyway, that's just what I thought of at this moment - it's not a problem yet, but definitely for the future, let's say in a Day or two, I would be against having Captain for more than one Day. Now before everybody of the "no power for Captains" party starts shouting "We were telling you from the very beginning!", I emphasise that it goes for the late Days, when a lynch-cancelling power in an innocent's hands would be more powerful than ever, but in Wolf's hands even more disasterous than ever. With many people in the village, the Wolves will yet, I believe, not dare to misuse the lynch-cancel in any drastic way. Because if they did, they would need to explain themselves and may end up lynched themselves. But in the end, there might as well remain nobody to perform the justice on them. Thus, if our numbers thin in the future, then I am against multiple Captain Days.

And maybe even... once the Captain loses the power to communicate with his Nightly mates (not sure when this occurs, maybe it's only with some really low number of players, but anyway), maybe from that point on it would be the best to have no Captain at all. (But certainly not as long as he still can elect his BG! That is a VERY strong means to protect fellow villagers.)

EDIT: x-ed since the post I quoted

[Gwathagor]

Continuing with this theoretical train of thought, eventually it might even be best to elect no Captain at all unless they are practically a known innocent. Theoretically.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Continuing with this theoretical train of thought, eventually it might even be best to elect no Captain at all unless they are practically a known innocent. Theoretically.

Oh sorry Legate, you already said this.

[Gwathagor]

Ha, here's an idea - Legate, I'd be interested to hear you summarize what Roa's arguments against you are. It would be informative to hear your perspective on it. Plus I'm lazy and don't feel like trying to find the original posts.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Ha ha. Seems like it would be a waste to endow with Captain powers someone who's not likely to a) be around enough to be able to use said powers in an informed way or b) even be around at DL to put said powers to use. Right? But consider this - while it may look for all the world like Roa is trying to establish some sort of artificial, damning ties with another player (me), she may also be just trying to force me to be more involved. As you can see, it's working.

Ha, okay, if it works like that, then okay

Originally Posted by Nienna

Roa: Day One

3. Starts the game on a productive note; asks people if they don’t want to be captain or NG

Well, actually... that was one thing that I praised on first sight, but later it was one of the things which made me worried about Roa. Because again, this thing has two edges, whereas they may not be so apparent on first sight. The reason why I didn't mention it earlier is first what I already said (I didn't want to pull out the case against Roa very early in case she was innocent and the Wolves tried to frame her), and second that I am not sure if the thing I assumed it might mean worked out. The explanation of what is "the thing I assumed it meant", i.e. what I thought Roa's question might have been misused for, will follow.

To quote it precisely, in her very first post, the first post of the Day, the very first post on the thread, Roa said:

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Alright, there is no doubt that this is a very complicated game with a lot of ways to die. So, let's get the most complicated thing out the way first- captain. Is there anyone who for any reason does NOT want to be captain (either for RL reasons, not comfortable with the role, etc.)? At least that will narrow down the options while we pick each other apart with angry paranoia.

Later, Hakon mentioned that we should take care not to vote Gifted for a Captain. It took quite a long while before somebody pointed it out, but it was a very, very serious point which made me aware of it - of course we should not be voting for a Gifted, as he won't be able to perform his Nightly tasks as a Captain. Understandable, is it? Well, but what does that mean? What can the thing Roa asked actually be used for?

Well, I think you already know the answer: for revealing Gifteds! Because: if what I said above is true (i.e. that Gifteds would not like to be chosen as Captain), then if you ask a Gifted whether he wants to be a Captain, the answer would be rather "no". And that means that you could theoretically determine who the Gifteds are based on what people have answered. And as a Wolf, you could then adapt the easy technique "let's kill everybody who answered 'no' and thus way we wipe out all the Gifteds".

Of course it is just theoretical model. It depends on many things, nobody says a Gifted could not answer "yes" genuinely, or be aware of the danger of being exposed and rather say "yes" even though he doesn't want to, but it's something which the Wolves might give a shot, just to see if perchance they can succeed in exposing somebody. Also, if ordos unisono reply "yes, no problem" and don't realise what this answer could mean - because they are not bothered by the idea as much as Gifteds could be and wouldn't necessarily think about the danger hidden in that - then they basically open the space for the Wolves to see, as they throw the Gifteds into a situation where the Gifted thinks "ok, everybody answered 'yes' with no hesitation, I would have preferred to avoid this topic, but now everybody answered and I need to answer, or I would stand out and be noticed, but I need to lie, or I would be noticed" or something like that.

So all in all, this is really one of the things that made me worried about Roa . I am also unsure whether she would have asked the question she asked had she been innocent, I think she's clever and she would have realised what it could be misused for.

EDIT: x-ed with three Gwaths

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Ha, here's an idea - Legate, I'd be interested to hear you summarize what Roa's arguments against you are. It would be informative to hear your perspective on it. Plus I'm lazy and don't feel like trying to find the original posts.

(EDITEDIT - sorry, misread - what I am replying to here is MY points against Roa)

Okay, you have one point right above - well, will it be enough if I linked you to one post of mine where I say it all? Or at least I think most has been said in one particular post... I will find it...

EDIT: okay, it's basically my post #450. That sums up the most things, as that is where I brought my points into the open. But the post above is equally important.

EDITEDIT: Oh sorry. I misread. You meant what is MY perspective about ROA's points against ME? Okay. Wait a while!

[Gwathagor]

Regarding post #486, Legate - ok, interesting, but isn't that a little complicated??

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, so you are asking, what is my perspective on Roa's points against me?

I have more or less been replying to it in the particular cases, so I really cannot sum it up. But more or less what was recurring was that she said I was "keeping repeating that Rune is innocent" (which I didn't, I said that "he could be innocent Rune" or something like that maybe once or twice, but mainly I just kept saying that I'm uncomfortable with lynching him, which is not the same, and the reasons for why I said that see below), "pushing myself for being a Captain" (not true, never said that), "having no real opinion" (or something of that sort, which I don't really understand) and that's probably it.

All in all, everything she brought against me can be described in one word: shallow. And I mean, really. It is no real case at all, and unless she voted me, I would not have even considered it anything "serious". I mean - if I was completely different player and been watching her saying this about another player, it would have seemed to me that she is just randomly babbling on the person's address. Neither of that is what I would call "a serious case". Like, I think she didn't even try to make any association of me with any Nightly kills, or try to provide my connection to some bandwagons or whatever. The thing which is closest to "proper" suspicion in her case would be my "support" for Rune (as she says it, whereas I have been discouraging people from voting Rune for Captain). Otherwise, like I said, I consider it rather "unserious" way of suspecting.

What I dislike of her accusations is her "dodging" - she never comments on my explanations (like that I was worried that Rune might be a Hunter and since he voted me, I was worried that he might target me and that is why I didn't dare to vote him) and seems to completely disregard them, pass them, let them be forgotten, and then she brings again the same case or makes a different one.

Well, hope that's enough for you.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Regarding post #486, Legate - ok, interesting, but isn't that a little complicated??

Well, you mean the possible "plan"? Well, not really. It might be just a random shot - from the Wolves' part. It's really not any complicated, it's rather plain logic. If somebody got the "plop" idea, adding two and two from the rules, it's quite easy to use it the way I said, I think.

At least anyway it's what I thought of. Roa is clever player, so I have no problem with imagining that it could be something she might think of.

[Nienna]

Here is the voting for Day One and Day Two

Known innocents are in italics, known wolves are underlined.

BORO
Guard: Inzil
Captain: Rune
Lynch: Lommy

SALLY
Guard: Valier; Kath
Captain: Legate; Nienna
Lynch: Rune; Lottie

GREENIE
Guard: No-one; Kath
Captain: Legate; Nienna
Lynch: Hakon; Valier

INZIL (ORDO)
Guard: Boro
Captain: Rune
Lynch: Hakon

ROA
Guard: Brinn; Gwath
Captain: Legate; Lommy
Lynch: Rune; Legate

NERWEN
Guard: Kath; Sally
Captain: Roa; Nienna
Lynch: Boro; Lottie

LOSLOTE
Guard: Boro
Captain: Rune
Lynch: Nienna

RUNE (WEREWOLF)
Guard: Valier
Captain: Himself!
Lynch: Legate

VALIER (COBBLER)
Guard: Roa; Lommy
Captain: Rune; Legate
Lynch: Loslote; Lottie

FEA
Guard: Nienna; Lommy
Captain: Roa; Roa
Lynch: Hakon; didn’t vote

NIENNA
Guard: Roa; Nerwen
Captain: Legate; Legate
Lynch: Rune; Valier

LOMMY
Guard: Valier; Nerwen
Captain: Roa; Roa
Lynch: Kath; Vailier

HAKON (MASTER HUNTER)
Guard: Brinn
Captain: Legate
Lynch: Rune

MAC (BERSERK HUNTER)
Guard: Kath (switched from earlier vote for Brinn)
Captain: Roa (switched from earlier vote for Kath)
Lynch: Hakon

LEGATE
Guard: Nienna; Nerwen
Captain: No-one; Nienna
Lynch: Lommy; didn’t vote

KATH
Didn't vote. Either day.

GWATHAGOR
Guard: Didn’t vote; Lommy
Captain: Didn’t vote; Didn't vote
Lynch: Didn’t vote; Boro Late

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, so you are asking, what is my perspective on Roa's points against me?

I have more or less been replying to it in the particular cases, so I really cannot sum it up. But more or less what was recurring was that she said I was "keeping repeating that Rune is innocent" (which I didn't, I said that "he could be innocent Rune" or something like that maybe once or twice, but mainly I just kept saying that I'm uncomfortable with lynching him, which is not the same, and the reasons for why I said that see below), "pushing myself for being a Captain" (not true, never said that), "having no real opinion" (or something of that sort, which I don't really understand) and that's probably it.

All in all, everything she brought against me can be described in one word: shallow. And I mean, really. It is no real case at all, and unless she voted me, I would not have even considered it anything "serious". I mean - if I was completely different player and been watching her saying this about another player, it would have seemed to me that she is just randomly babbling on the person's address. Neither of that is what I would call "a serious case". Like, I think she didn't even try to make any association of me with any Nightly kills, or try to provide my connection to some bandwagons or whatever. The thing which is closest to "proper" suspicion in her case would be my "support" for Rune (as she says it, whereas I have been discouraging people from voting Rune for Captain). Otherwise, like I said, I consider it rather "unserious" way of suspecting.

What I dislike of her accusations is her "dodging" - she never comments on my explanations (like that I was worried that Rune might be a Hunter and since he voted me, I was worried that he might target me and that is why I didn't dare to vote him) and seems to completely disregard them, pass them, let them be forgotten, and then she brings again the same case or makes a different one.

Well, hope that's enough for you.

It is. I read one of her major posts against you, and, to be honest, if she's representing what you said accurately, then I think that she's right in saying you're largely inconcrete, that many of your posts are long without saying much, and that you seem to inconsistently come down on both sides of an issue. However, I disagree with her in that I don't think it makes you look suspicious. If it was someone else, maybe, but I think that in your case it's just your playing style. You play WW like a philosopher: lots of words, lots of apparent contradictions, lots of questions - but not so many answers. As far as I'm concerned, you're ok for now.

[Gwathagor]

And I think Roa is nitpicking. She's fixated on Legate being guilty.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And maybe even... once the Captain loses the power to communicate with his Nightly mates (not sure when this occurs, maybe it's only with some really low number of players, but anyway), maybe from that point on it would be the best to have no Captain at all.

Originally Posted by the Rules about the Captaincy

He will appoint to him two bodyguards (with 18-13 villagers, with 12-7 he chooses one and with 6 or less there are no BG’s anymore)

So with 6 players left there will be no BG's, nor NG's to that matter, and the Captain will stay up the Nights alone... vulnerable to attacks as anyone else.

[Gwathagor]

++Lommy for Captain

One of the few players who I feel pretty sure about.

++Loslote for Night-Guard

Here, quiet player, here's a chance to do some more. (I'm one to talk, right?)

[Nienna]

Sally wanted me to inform everyone that she had car trouble and it doesn't look like she will make it back for deadline.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

You play WW like a philosopher: lots of words, lots of apparent contradictions, lots of questions - but not so many answers.

Okay, I am taking this as a compliment, as actually I kind of see myself in that answer People usually don't get, or don't like me for that. Unrelated to the in-game-view, you pleased me with that

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

And I think Roa is nitpicking. She's fixated on Legate being guilty.

Well, that's actually well phrased. My concern, again when I think of that, is just again how could it be that innocent Roa would do that - I mean, she's a clever player, so if she was innocent, why to be so determined.

[Nienna]

Gwath: Why are you sure about Lommy? She is on my question list and I didn't know if you got something that I missed or ... something.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Gwath: Why are you sure about Lommy? She is on my question list and I didn't know if you got something that I missed or ... something.

No, you didn't miss anything. It's just instinct.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Anyway, we are slowly approaching the "zero hour" (or, first hour after midnight, in my case). I think at least this is probably clear for me toDay.

++Lynch Roa

And now I can as well try to make some voting tally or something, and see what we can see...

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

No, you didn't miss anything. It's just instinct.

...okay...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Voting this far:

Captain
Roa –> Gwath
Fea –> Lommy
Nerwen –> Nienna
Kath -> Lommy
sally -> Kath
Gwath -> Lommy (3)

Didn't vote: Nienna, Loslote, Greenie, Lommy, Legate

Guard
Roa –> Kath (Invalid vote)
Fea –> Greenie
Nerwen –> Gwath
Kath -> Fea
sally -> Nienna
Gwath -> Loslote

Didn't vote: Nienna, Loslote, Greenie, Lommy, Legate

Lynch
Roa –> Legate
Fea –> Roa
Kath -> Greenie
Legate -> Roa (2)

Didn't vote: Nienna, Sally, Loslote, Greenie, Nerwen, Lommy, Gwath

[A Little Green]

Okay, I thought I'd be able to be around rather more toDay, making lists and stuff. I wasn't. Now I'm awful tired and want to go to bed and Lommy wants to do that too which means I'll have to be brief. So:

++ lynch Roa

Even if she's innocent, which I doubt, her death will shed some light on people like Lommy.

++ Nienna for Captain

Now I know it's risky to vote her as Captain for a second Day but this seems the only way for me. I don't trust Lommy enough to give her that power, and yet she seems to be on the lead - and Gwath, the other one besides her to have received votes, I have much too little to go on to judge properly.

Finally,

++ Nerwen for Night Guard

Because, like I've said before, I think she's a one who could really make use of that role.


EDIT: x-ed with Nienna and Legate

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, updated...

Captain
Roa –> Gwath
Fea –> Lommy
Nerwen –> Nienna
Kath -> Lommy
sally -> Kath
Gwath -> Lommy (3)
Greenie -> Nienna (2)

Didn't vote: Nienna, Loslote, Lommy, Legate

Guard
Roa –> Kath (Invalid vote)
Fea –> Greenie
Nerwen –> Gwath
Kath -> Fea
sally -> Nienna
Gwath -> Loslote
Greenie -> Nerwen

Didn't vote: Nienna, Loslote, Lommy, Legate

Lynch
Roa –> Legate
Fea –> Roa
Kath -> Greenie
Legate -> Roa (2)
Greenie -> Roa (3)

Didn't vote: Nienna, Sally, Loslote, Nerwen, Lommy, Gwath

[Nienna]

Legate: Do you have an opinion of Lommy?

[Thinlómien]

Everybody seems to assume both Legate and Roa can't be innocent, but it occurs to me that may be the case... Legate feels rather innocent to me and I'm very torn about Roa. I feel like taking the coward standpoint: you can lynch her if you wish, but I'm not going to be a part of that.

Speaking of which, it does worry me that there's such a consensus for lynching Roa. Firstly, because wolves can hide in a consensus. Secondly, because (like somebody already said) toDay has mostly been revolving around Roa, which is counter-productive. And thirdly, because whenever the village is more or less unanimous in a lynch it's a lynch of an innocent (or an obvious wolf, which I don't think Roa is if she is one).

And you people had better think of some third reasonable Captain candidate because otherwise I'm going to vote myself, which would feel gross.


edit: xed with Leg and Ni

[Thinlómien]

++Nerwen for Guard

Because she's smart and I'd like to keep her around.

[Gwathagor]

I hate it when I get to the end of the Day and I don't know who to vote. I always feel like I have to make something up.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I am actually wondering about the Captain vote. Because, while on one hand I would support Nienna and not be entirely sure with Lommy in that position (aside from that, I have RL reasons why I would not want Lommy to be too busy by Nightly tasks toMorrow ...although well, even that might depend), I am wondering, it won't necessarily need to be that bad. Thinking, thinking. Speaking of that, after Gwath appeared and there was chance to see him posting, I am not uncomfortable with him either, though I don't think there will be much support for him for it to make sense to vote him.

EDIT: x-ed since my last post

[Thinlómien]

I can't really say anything about people, or suspect anybody, so I'm committing the anti-Nogrod crime (since he's modding ) and make a list at the last minutes to arrange my thoughts:

Fea - confuses me a lot
Nienna - looks still quite innocent even though there's something in her attitude that I don't like
Sally - seems innocent enough
Kath - I like it that she really had a different view on many things, it is usually a sign of innocence
Loslote - a questionmark
Greenie - more on the innocent side although I'm not convinced
Nerwen - seems innocent and is very helpful
Roa - the mess-maker, either her normal dramatic self or wolf having a show... you never know
Legate - I trust him but not his judgement, he seems innocent but I disagree with him a lot
Gwath - seems quite innocent

and there are THREE wolves in that lot. Ouch.

Alright - I think it's maybe Fea. Then possibly Loslote. And then who? Roa? Greenie? Actually there's something funny between Roa and Fea, really.


edit xed with Gwath (whom I agree with) and Legate (the swine )

[Loslote]

Since she said herself she would be around much...

++ Roa

I think Legate's innocent. I'm still hazy on Greenie and Nerwen, but nothing concrete, so I'm not going to vote either of them.

Gwath has made some really good points recently, but since he hasn't been around much earlier, the wolves might think he would be somewhat trailless a kill. Therefore,

++ Night Guard Gwath

Lommy doesn't seem suspicious to me, and I think she'd be a good Captain, so

++ Captain Lommy

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Legate: Do you have an opinion of Lommy?

Actually, now after seeing her last post, that settles it. I feel uncomfortable about her again. I do not have that big problem with the "coward standpoint", that's something understandable and I have done that myself or felt like doing that myself many times, but all the "I am the voice of reason" performance just strikes me as weird in some way. Well, anyway. I guess we might be wiser about Lommy if we lynch Roa. Hm.

EDIT: x-ed since my last post, heijj, who is the swine?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Actually there's something funny between Roa and Fea, really.

Funny like what? Fea started the Roa-bandwagon after all, didn't she?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, that's horrible! After Lommy's last post, I again think better of her. I should get a rest.

[Nienna]

I have absolutely no idea what to do about the Captain thing... bah.

Fea starting a Roa-wagon might actually point to her guilt.

[Thinlómien]

I checked very quickly Roa and Rune's interactions and it looked slightly alarming until Roa voted him. I'm not convinced she'd have done that as a wolf: yes, she could pull it off, but why do it if it wasn't necessary?

Originally Posted by Gwath

Funny like what? Fea started the Roa-bandwagon after all, didn't she?

She did? Well, as if it did matter - Fea could pull that off beautifully if they were fellows. I cant' really say what was funny, I don't remember (I should go back and have a look) and I don't have the time now, but I remember something caught my attention there.

edit: xed with Nienna

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay. I am putting my thoughts on Lommy on ice now. I need to think of that in peace. For now, I do not feel comfortable enough to vote for her, but whatever.

Let's make it this way:

++Nienna Captain
++NG Nienna

(We can do it, right? Vote for the same people for different things? Kind of a failsafe-choice. Though, I am fine with Nerwen, too, but I cast my vote for Ni now.)

EDIT: x-ed with Nienna and Lommy

[Thinlómien]

Anyone for a last minute Nerwen-for-Captain-wagon? Although we have to concentrate on the lynch too...

edit: xed with Legate

[Nienna]

Updated vote count anyone?

[Thinlómien]

*deep sigh*

++Lommy for Captain



(Can't pretend I'm not enjoying this on some level, though... )