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11-13-2007, 04:19 PM | #1 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Werewolf, why to play or not to play?
I’ve been a bit amazed about all the controversy around WW that occured some times ago and also a bit astonished about the relatively low interest on the game of late after that (this fall).
So I think it’s about time to have a separate discussion thread for matters of WW in general, not limited to particular games discussion threads or the general TiG-thread which mainly serves it’s purpose with handling the oncoming games and their moderators. I do understand why there has been some controversies. Playing this kind of game easily brings forwards all kinds of feelings and if one gets too involved it’s easy to see the things said in the game thread as personal comments. I know it as I’ve had that very same backbone reaction myself many times. One just should get over that reaction and to see it’s a game – and fun, as it should be. So we should remember that it’s a game to be enjoyed, to have fun with. Not an occasion where our value as human beings is evaluated. As an optimistic person I’m not at all confident that this is the reason why the games have attracted less popularity of late. I’m just not willing to believe it. Please correct me if I’m wrong. So what is it then? Do people feel that the games have gotten too competitive or too serious? I myself don’t see the point of that argument but would be willing to see the argument to consider it. But for my part I’d like to argue the opposite. A year ago many people were much more serious and competitive than in the last games I’ve been in. Or at least that’s how I perceive it. Is there a feeling that the “crossbar has been raised too high” as we say in Finland? That to be able to take part one would need to be a wizard? There has been an increased tendency in the games that it is generally discussed whether one should be able to get through a game with posting nothing / posting just oneliners but that I think is a different thing. I can see why many people (including me) call for participants to actually play the game and not just hang around. But why wasn't there this problem a year or two ago? Or has the time just gotten past the game? Was it a fashion that passed away? I see many of the people who were used to be the active and brilliant WW-players who have not been seen too much around in other threads of late either (spm, Morm, Spawn, Fea, Anguirel, phantom, Roa, Diamond, Durelin, Valier, Farael, Glirdan, Nilp... all those legends of the game! - sorry if I forgot someone...). So is it even more gravely that the ‘Downs have lost a bunch of active people in the first place? (That discussion might be a place for another thread I think) So what do you think? Why should one play werewolf and why not? Why there are less players now than there were? What could be done to it? I mean I love the game and I love to play it with you people.
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
11-13-2007, 04:43 PM | #2 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Just to add to the things said above...
Werewolf is an amazingly varying game that has all the features of a classic: social interaction (that just gets better the more you play with the same people*), emotional involvement, suspense, challenges for the intelligence, playing the detective, bluffing and double-bluffing, coping with unexpected situations, playing for a cause... Just plain wonderful and so much fun! And most of the time all this is set into the background of Tolkien's world which just heightens the experience as it's a world we can share here. * Which also means that it's very nice to see new people around as they are potential fellows in the games to come. It's not a long time ago we got people like Rikae, Macalaure or Legate in to the games and now it seems they're household names, the few basic elements of the game.
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
11-13-2007, 05:51 PM | #3 |
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,724
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Truth be told, I find it quite amazing that more than thirty games, not counting the Junior ones, have already been played for the last - I think three years or so. Yes, I agree it's a great game (understatement of the year), but I guess I never expected that people would keep it up for so long. Nor have I counted on the possibility of fresh corpses getting hooked to the game when the more decayed players start feeling, I assume, like they've probably already had too much of it.
I can't help thinking that there seems to be just so many ways of playing the game, whatever your role may be (although I'm probably just not strategic enough to find ways to further tap each role's potential). This could be the reason we come up with other versions of the game, to spice it up a bit. But everything still boils down to more or less the same strategies and logical arguments - and I'm sure we can all agree that's tiring work. Which brings me to the more pressing issue: the younger players, who comprise a huge chunk of the Werewolf population, aren't getting any younger and any less busier. Some who used to have more time as high school students now find themselves without a chance to visit the Downs as they enter the university (Ang and tgwbs spring to mind). The others have climbed up the ladder of tertiary education, and things get crazier up there. Mind you, this is just my perspective, being one of those younger ones. I don't know how the minds of adults work so I can't speak for them. As for the rest...they've probably just moved on. |
11-13-2007, 09:17 PM | #4 |
Maundering Mage
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,679
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Speaking as one who has been around since game one and at one point, it may still stand, held the record for most played games I would suggest a few reasons for the decline.
1. I think there was a fallout after the few controversies that came about. I don't think this is the only cause but we lost a chunk about that time. 2. We lost other downers on and off for one reason or another. I am one such where life has come and given me new situations to deal with and new sources of passing time which takes me away from the downs, though I'm getting a bit more active if only lurking a bit. 3. Another reason for me is...well I've played so many games I need a break. I've been thinking about getting back into it but...this leads to the next topic 4. Personally, I get a little bothered by all the crazy variations we experience. I realize that many people do a great job and I enjoy some of that variations that exist but I still crave the simple and basic games with small groups. Only seldom can I afford the time required on a game with 20 or so players. When the posting is so out of control that I cannot catch up I get annoyed and would rather do other things than read for 2 hours or more a day. Again, I think some of the variations have been way over the top for me. These are some of the reasons I think..take it for what it is worth.
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11-13-2007, 05:28 PM | #5 |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,533
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Well, I don't think the problem could be worded as simply as "taking things too seriously", but I also wouldn't say that it's a problem of "not serious enough" per se.
It seems to me that, over the past year, our little band of players has lost its sense of fun. The gameplay has become too formulaic; on day one, the stock topics are trotted out and discussed in the accepted ways, day 2, the same old analysis, same arguments, and really, the same roles are reenacted again and again. By 'roles' here, I mean something other than roleplay or hidden roles; I mean the in-game persona and strategy adopted by each player. Instead of real thought and individual analysis, players respond to each other in standardized ways, almost like filling in a form. There is always the wacky 'lightning rod' killed on day one; the myriad "quiet ones", the 'list' analyses, etc. Even the explanations for suspicion seem chosen from a multiple-choice list. "Well, we need to get rid of the quiet ones.", "Too confusing", "Trying to appear helpful while saying nothing", "flip-flopping". However often these stereotyped methods fail to catch a wolf, they're still trotted out every time; and those who deviate too far from the average-of-all-posts are automatically lynched instead of being looked at carefully. All this has the effect of creating overcautious, homogeneous playing styles and ever more boring games. While I'm not suggesting everyone play as oddly as I did in Lommy's game, I think that the lack of thought which causes us to vote for easy targets and make easy posts (or no posts at all), is sapping all the enjoyment and interest out of the game. |
11-13-2007, 10:28 PM | #6 |
Laconic Loreman
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First let me applaud you Nogrod for starting this thread. When there's a problem, I like the whole 'cut the crap...how do we fix it?' attitude.
For me, time has certainly become a problem. Monday thru Thursday is work for 10 hours, and Friday thru Sunday it always seems like I'm doing something, and when I am not doing 'work,' I just want to relax and unwind. So, when a new game starts the first thing I have to ask is...ok am I going to have the time? But, I will say it's not all about 'time' either, I know I've told several people I really have lost a lot of interest in the game. It used to be that I loved the social interaction, I loved the gaming...and in many ways I still do (I love to play Mob - which is exactly the same only instead of catching WW's you have to find mobsters). At least, for my part, I agree with Rikae as I don't think WW becoming 'too serious,' or 'not serious enough' is the best way to describe why I've lost a lot of interest. It's kind of hard to explain as I've always liked that 'serious edge' as well as knowing 'it's just a fun game to play.' The seriousness, the competition, intensity, passionate arguments all added to the reasons I loved doing it. But in the end, it was a fun game, something to relax and enjoy. Now it seems, as Rikae said, too 'formulaic' or as I see it...too much like 'work.' The social interaction, and the game itself used to be something that could unwind me from all the work...but it has simply become just more 'work.' I haven't even been keeping up with the games recently and it's due to the reasons I've said above. So, I really don't know what's been going on recently (just that it's been hard to get people to play). But I will say there definitely was an issue with some of the 'post game talks.' (Which prompted SpM to create this thread...definitely something that I agreed needed to be done at that time). I sure hope that still isn't a problem, but if it is, this is all I'll say. I know there are certain 'downers who will disagree with the statement that there are some 'smart football [American football as a note] players' out there. But, one player, was asked about how his team has been 'lucky' in winning some of their games. He said, in response, that everything happens for a reason. These are all professional athletes that know how to play the game. Whether the defensive line creates pressure on the quaterback, forcing a bad throw, or they 'get inside the opposing team's head' there's always something that causes X to happen. I think of WW the same way. Most of us have played this game a lot, as for new members on the downs, I know several of them have played WW or a similar game elsewhere. In a way we are all 'professionals,' we all know how to play this game. No one caused the 'team' (either innocent or werewolf) to lose, it's just whatever team won played that much better. It may sound arrogant of me, but when I lose, I know it's not something I did wrong, I simply got outplayed...or maybe you could say I got 'played like a fiddle.' :P "You did that much better. You 'out did' me. Congradulations, you just wait until next game, let's see if I can get you back." Friendly competition, that always was a great spark to play. There was a time friendly competition turned into a 'blame game.' Like I said, I haven't checked in to recent games to know if that's still an issue. I just know it was at one time and was a reason as to why I've stopped.
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11-13-2007, 10:45 PM | #7 | |
Beloved Shadow
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I've been too busy to play. Simple as that.
To properly do a game of Werewolf I need time to read things more than once, time to write multiple posts, and most importantly- time to think about everyone and everything. Every day! At this time I have only one day a week where that is remotely possible. Quote:
I would certainly consider it, anyway. If I see a village stocked with people that I've played with before, that gets my interest up.
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the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important. |
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11-14-2007, 12:07 AM | #8 | |
Eidolon of a Took
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: my own private fantasy world
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
And I haven't had that sort of online time in over a year. I do often miss the fun social interaction of WW -- I still keep in touch with many friends met on the 'Downs Werewolfing but sometimes regret that I'm not meeting any of the newer Downers anymore or interacting with the old friends I'm not seeing elsewhere on the 'net. But ah well. Life got in the way, and now when I am able to be online I have more stuff to do than just play WW. WW would consume all my online time if I tried to play it properly. I absolutely hate having to play in a rush, or on stolen bits of time, skimming posts and making hasty desicions. Also, the last time I played, I got to be a wolf for the first time, and won, so it just felt like the proper bang to retire on.
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11-14-2007, 04:42 AM | #9 | |
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,724
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Quote:
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11-14-2007, 04:44 AM | #10 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,606
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All right, I'll be also one to pop in on account of the "freshmen". This means that I cannot judge the game in the more "global" view as most of you "old school" players do, but maybe I can say at least something.
First, my WWing career is something around seven or so games, including one modded by myself, and one thing I can say is that I definitely haven't witnessed any of these issues that someone has taken something personally. I don't know, maybe I just did not notice, but as far as I remember, for the last year, everything went smooth and no big issues where the players would have been offended did occur. (And one could ask, why should they? I daresay that I know most of you Downers at least to the point to know that you are not little children who can't stand being beaten in chess, or cannot discern in-game attacks from real ones.) I'd guess, and what others post on this thread supports this opinion, that most of the lack of interest in WW depends on people being busy. However, a curious query: does not this also have something to do with the fact that WW is just "switching generations"? You know, I am not going to wonder if a WW veteran after his 3,456th game says "and I've had enough, I am not playing anymore" (there are, of course, people like Mr. Noggins, who seem to be playing infinitely. But that's a special case ). It's just natural, people come and go, and this can be applied on the Downs as a whole. But normally this "generation exchange" should be sort of a fluent, ongoing process, that seems natural. Older players start to visit the game less frequently, then they cease playing at all. And on the other hand, the new players start to appear more frequently, and in the end they become regular players. Technically speaking, no one should notice the change - or at least, no one should notice the change in numbers. But when you look for example on the list of Gil's last game, there is definitely something strange - not only the number of players is really small, but almost all of the players are just (relative) newbies. Where I wanted to get with this. I was just wondering if - and that's just an idea, and not meant to be negative (and not aimed against anyone), but a subject to think of - if there is not sort of an "old-school-werewolf-stagnation". If the older players are not being - how to say that -"conservative", that's the word. I mean like one says to himself "and now we preserve our nice little village, where there is Noggins, Boro, Morm, Fea, Phantom, whoever..." and when suddenly one or two or three of them start to participate less, one says: "Well, but Morm, Fea etc. are not playing anymore, what do I have in common with these newbie folks, let's leave," even though the person would actually like to play, but there is the barrier, or unwillingness to accept the new situation, unwillingness to play with unknown players. Of course such a thought would be illogical: when this player came in the first place, he/she also did not know all these he/she now considers as "classic players", and they got acquainted exactly this way - by playing a few games together. But when such a player leaves, there is no way he could build up similar relationships with the new ones. And so, even if he returns some time later in the future, he realizes that he really does not have anything in common with the new players, because they developed their own playing style, and he leaves saying "they are playing something totally different, this says nothing to me". Also because of this I believe there should be a continuity, not a gap between the "old" and "new" WW players. I am not saying that it's like that - what I'm saying here is just a query or a "probe", if anyone does not think the same. In second place, I believe mentioning such a thing could serve as "warning for further generations", which I think could be borne in mind for all WWers, even for the current and even for the upcoming players. What inspired me partially were phantom's words about his interest rising when there are some players he knows in the game. This is clear, of course everyone wants to play with his friends and remember good old times. But what if some people just take this to the extreme and want the "old times" to remain forever? That would be stagnation and it simply does not work like that - times are changing, people are changing and nothing can stop it. WW can be fun no matter with whom we are playing - because as it was said here, it's also about social interaction; so the fact that there are not the players I know should not play any role in our choice whether we want to join a game or not.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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