Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

I have another idea, and it does include 'another one or two' bit, but unless bag=four coins, that's not it either.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, I can't find anything else relevant that I've already said. Can you at least tell me the post number where I said it?

No, because then I would be pretty much answering the riddle for you.

Originally Posted by Urwen

I have another idea, and it does include 'another one or two' bit, but unless bag=four coins, that's not it either.

I see your idea, and it's actually pretty close! But not right.

Much earlier, you suggested 'quarters' as a coin you might have four of (making a dollar). Given that it's not quarters, can you think of another coin you might have four of in the same way?

hS

[Urwen]

If not a dollar, then it must be a cent.

[Urwen]

Sorry if I am not as knowledgeable as you are. D:

[Urwen]

There is Groat, which equals four pennies.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

There is Groat, which equals four pennies.

Does a quarter equal four dollars?

hS

[Urwen]

And if we add one or two to that, we get tanner.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Does a quarter equal four dollars?

hS

No, but stella does.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

No, but stella does.

Originally Posted by Me

Much earlier, you suggested 'quarters' as a coin you might have four of (making a dollar). Given that it's not quarters, can you think of another coin you might have four of in the same way?

Originally Posted by Not me, I didn't say that

Given that it's not quarters, can you think of another coin you might have four of in a completely different, in fact totally opposite way?

hS

[Urwen]

You're moving the goalposts here.

So is it four coins that make up a quarter?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

You're moving the goalposts here.

So is it four coins that make up a quarter?

I'm giving you clearer and clearer hints because you're not getting the answer. I figured that was what you want.

No. It is four coins that make up another coin. Both are coins that Tolkien would have been familiar with, and are explicitly name-dropped in The Lord of the Rings.

hS

[Urwen]

Farthings?

[Urwen]

It could also spell out 'far things'.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Farthings?

Farthings. Four of 'em.

Now put together everything you know.

hS

[Urwen]

Shire also has four farthings. Ruler born is Pippin, as you yourself said. Ruler made is Sam. Ruler over stream is Merry. Which means the answer is Shire.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Shire also has four farthings. Ruler born is Pippin, as you yourself said. Ruler made is Sam. Ruler over stream is Merry. Which means the answer is Shire.

Correct! The Shire is the answer.

Take four coins, add another one or two, - The Shire is made up of four Farthings, plus Buckland and (later) the Westmarch.
A ruler born, a ruler made, a ruler over stream, - The Mayor, Thain, and Master of Buckland, respectively, all posts eventually held by members of the Fellowship. (Frodo was briefly deputy mayor, as well.)
Visit York, Lancaster, take a horse and you - YorkSHIRE, LancaSHIRE, and a SHIRE horse. I also mentioned Gloucester[SHIRE] at least once.
Will find in the end a helper's hopeful dream. - I don't know if Sam dreamed of the Shire specifically, but he certainly longed for it.

Also:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Farthings. Four of 'em.

"And out of the Shire by their talk."

+

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Okay, so let's go this way:

Too outdated a reference?

hS

[Urwen]

Fun fact: If we exclude Gandalf and Gimli, then the Fellowship consists of rulers.

[Urwen]

Will make one when I get home, and will try to make it super hard.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Fun fact: If we exclude Gandalf and Gimli, then the Fellowship consists of rulers.

Gimli is Lord of the Glittering Caves, right? So it's just Gandalf - who would have been leader of the White Council, if Galadriel had had her way.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Will make one when I get home, and will try to make it super hard.

Please do! The challenge is surely the point; otherwise we'd just sit here writing riddles like:

I am a cat,
I say meow,
I'm different from my siblings,
Please tell me how.

And then we would shortly go utterly doolally.

(Of course, if by 'super hard' you mean 'super vague to punish you for making yours tricky', please don't, but I'm sure you wouldn't do that.)

hS

[Urwen]

No, I mean super tricky. But before I make it, I have a question: will you at least try to guess it once it is made?

(Also, I definitely wouldn't get that Beruthiel reference. Definitely not. Because I am a dumb animal who cannot get the obvious.)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

No, I mean super tricky. But before I make it, I have a question: will you at least try to guess it once it is made?

(Also, I definitely wouldn't get that Beruthiel reference. Definitely not. Because I am a dumb animal who cannot get the obvious.)

I will be on holiday next week and away from PCs, so please don't get antsy if I don't answer within thirty seconds.

You're right, Beruthiel is a bit obscure. Maybe more like this:

I am short,
Shorter than a dwarf,
I like riddles,
But not dragons that snort...f.

hS

[Urwen]

But not this week?

(Is it Bilbo?)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

But not this week?

I mean, it's already the end of Friday. There's not a lot of week left.

hS

[Urwen]

There's Saturday and Sunday too. And the riddle will be up in less than two hours, so that's plenty o'time.

[Urwen]

Enemy or friend?
You get to choose
For in the end
We have nothing to lose

We endured the harsh fall
We endured the winter cold
We endured it all
And we learned that there are things more valuable than gold

Alas, we were not to last
The betrayal from within
They came upon us hard and fast
And brought us to ruin

[Huinesoron]

Hmm. Stanza 2 could be referencing the Noldolante and Helkaraxe, which means someone of Fingolfin or Finarfin's following.

So who in that set were betrayed from within? Not Fiingolfin and Fingon - they died in battle, and it was Maedhros who was betrayed in the Nirnaeth. Not Angrod and Aegnor either, for the same reason. Not Finarfin or Galadriel, who weren't betrayed much at all.

Turgon or Finrod - Gondolin or Nargothrond? My feeling is that Turgon was more enamoured of his treasure, which speaks against him (the gold line), but on the other hand, the betrayal and destruction of Nargothrond weren't all that closely connected.

So I think I have to go with Turgon, or more generally his people. I admit I have no idea what's going on in the first stanza, though.

hS

[Urwen]

No to all. I did say it would be tricky.

And I wouldn't have said 'we' if it was just one person speaking.

Also, there was a typo, fixed it now.

[Urwen]

Don't pay too much attention to the first stanza, as it only describes how this particular group were perceived.

[Huinesoron]

So I've been thinking on and off about this all day. I spent a while on the Rangers of Arnor, who endured the Fall of Arthedain at the hands of the frozen north, but they weren't ever really betrayed.

Someone who was, however, was Barahir's little band of resistance fighters. They outlasted the Fall of Dorthonion, and I'm sure they faced a grim winter in the aftermath. Ultimately, it was Gorlim's betrayal that brought their deaths - and, to go back to the first stanza, they were certainly enemies to most people who knew they existed at all!

hS

[Urwen]

Right direction of thinking, but go a little further in time.....

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Right direction of thinking, but go a little further in time.....

Turin's gaggle of murderers, for basically the same reason? The winter could be the Nirnaeth, and I think it was Mim's betrayal that did them in.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Turin's gaggle of murderers, for basically the same reason? The winter could be the Nirnaeth, and I think it was Mim's betrayal that did them in.

hS

Yes to all except the winter bit. The winter is the literal winter, which they endured prior to finding a new home.

[Urwen]

Your turn.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Your turn.

I know, I know. Been a busy day, but let's see:

West of the mountains, East of the sea,
You left, and left our fate to me.
East of the mountains, West of the sea,
They leave my home - and head to thee.

hS

[Urwen]

My first thought is Finwe and Elwe.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

My first thought is Finwe and Elwe.

Elwe is one of them, Finwe is not.

hS

[Urwen]

West of the mountains, east of the sea: Beleriand
East of the mountains, west of the sea: Middle Earth


So, the speaker lived in both. That lowers the number of candidates


Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, Celebrian, Gil-Galad, and possibly Glorfindel and Maglor as well.

[Urwen]

Elwe and Olwe, then? The Elves are leaving Beleriand and going to Aman, where Olwe is.


It could also be Elwe and Finarfin or Elwe and Melian, for the same reason.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Elwe and Olwe, then? The Elves are leaving Beleriand and going to Aman, where Olwe is.


It could also be Elwe and Finarfin or Elwe and Melian, for the same reason.

Pretty much. Olwe is speaking to Elwe, who vanished in Beleriand - and to who, much later, Olwe sent the Noldor (well, 'sent') ftom Alqualonde, which stands east of the Pelori, and west of the Sea.

Back to you, and no, I don't think I'll have much opportunity to answer it.

hS

[Urwen]

Famous they were
But they weren't the first
For ere they met
There was us

Son of the second
Daughter of the first
Second of the third
'tween us, he was the first to die