Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
05-10-2014, 09:00 AM | #1 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: far away,in the southern arda
Posts: 153
|
who are the nazgul?
The nazgul was said to be great kings of men,but who are this great kings?numenor had only one kings,which is probably tar-minastir at the time of the forging of the rings.khamul is an exception,we know who he is.so,any idea who are the rest of the nazgul?
__________________
Fly,you fools!-gandalf,the bridge of khazad dûm |
05-10-2014, 09:20 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
|
The Nazgûl were not all "kings," just powerful leaders of Men.
In "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age": "Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old." (emphasis mine) Evidently some of them only became kings after they received their Rings, and some may never have specifically been kings at all. If the Númenórean Ringbearers became kings, it might have been, for instance, in Númenórean colonies in Harad, given that they obviously weren't kings in Númenor. Three were Númenóreans, as is stated in "Akallabêth": "Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race." The Lord of the Nazgûl was probably one of these Númenórean lords, but we don't know for sure. One, as you say, was an Easterling - Khamûl. The rest we don't know, but if there were only three Númenóreans the rest must surely have been Easterlings or Haradrim. Given how long Sauron spent in the East and how long it was under the shadow it seems extremely likely to me that several of the Nazgûl were probably Easterlings. I suppose some of them might have come from the Men who dwelled in western Middle-earth in the Dark Years but in my opinion they always come across as too primitive and disorganised for there to have been much point in Sauron giving any of their leaders Rings.
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. Last edited by Zigûr; 05-10-2014 at 10:27 AM. Reason: spelling |
05-10-2014, 08:38 PM | #3 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 433
|
Quote:
There's some additional materials about them in UT, Hunt for the Ring, where you get some insights into their thinking, ways of sensing, and about the hierarchical relationships amongst them. Looks like they 'lived' together in Minas Ithil (Morgal) during periods. There is some dispute about the number and kind who were numenorean. Someone posted somewhere that Sauron nabbed some of them during his time on Numenor--but the dates don't reconcile for that. The crisis period for the Gwaith-i-Mirdain is 1695 SA, with some 700 years until their first appearance, around SA 2251. In was around 1800 SA that Numenoreans began settling on the coast of Middle Earty (and even somewhat earlier, after 1700, in fact, when Tar Minastir sent aid to Gil Galad, just as Sauron was about to topple Lindon). They settled, not only in Umbar, but at other strongholds, some near Edhellond. It was not until SA 3255, Numenor's 25th king Ar-Pharazôn sailed to Middle-earth. That's well and truly after the Nine's first appearance. Not sure where they dwelt during Sauron's stay on Numenor. This history hints at some of the possibilities for the origins of the Nine, in a sweep of options broader than Umbar and the East. I wonder if the Blue Wizards had any role in the process, who were Istari who fell into the 'evil of sorcery' in the East. We never find out if they were competitors, or non-events for Sauron--or allies. Last edited by Ivriniel; 05-10-2014 at 09:05 PM. |
|
05-10-2014, 10:10 PM | #4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
|
Quote:
For them to have been involved they would have to have come to Middle-earth in the Second Age, which was suggested but never settled upon by Professor Tolkien, and they would also have to have fallen to the shadow - another thing he never settled upon - and abandoned their mission extremely quickly. That being said, I can't see why they would need to be involved. Sauron already had plenty of influence in the East without the need for intermediaries.
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
|
05-11-2014, 05:17 AM | #5 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 433
|
Quote:
Quote:
This is a reference in materials about the Shadow that falls upon Numenor, and though Sauron may not have brought The Nine Rings directly to Numenor--we do know that he developed a grudge about Tar Minastir's involvement, 1700 SA, in the Battle of the Gwathló, when Sauron was defeated by the Númenorean force from Vinyalondë, at which time, Quote:
Interestingly, we know that the Shadow falls on Numenor, around 1800. Now--requoting-- Quote:
I wouldn't be surprised if he was a rival to the King, and jealous of that power. Perhaps someone humiliated by a High Council in Numenor. Sauron, I suspect, chose the person by reputation, or by appeals to conceit, after the 'humiliating' defeat. Sounds like a basis for the grudge match to me. Sauron got personal. Whoever it was Sauron chose, they had about 700 years before getting scary. Given the Numenorean lifespan, I wonder then also--probably not one of the Numenoreans who lived 400 years (Elros's line in the Kingship). Perhaps this Prince was just your average Numenorean then. In any case, Tar Atanamir was born in 1800, and around this time, dissent first appears in Numenor, and soon after, the choice not to return Life to Eru, voluntarily, but for the Kings to cling on until death. This all makes me wonder--if these three chosen Numenoreans, for a while, were present making trouble in Numenor..... Last edited by Ivriniel; 05-11-2014 at 05:26 AM. |
||||
05-11-2014, 06:38 AM | #6 | |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch
Posts: 219
|
According to the Tale of Years, the Shadow fell on Numenor about SA1800, with the Ringwraiths first appearing about SA2251.
If we cross-reference this with the Line of Elros in UT (and ignore the error which CT draws attention to in note 10 - it doesn't seem relevant to this particular discussion anyway) we see the following happening inside this time-window: Quote:
This is, of course, purely conjectural, but it seems to fit. There is as far as I know absolutely nothing in Tolkien suggesting that the Witch-king himself was a Númenórean (aside from a note cited by Hammond and Scull that he was "probably" one). He could just as easily have been Haradrim or Easterling. There also seems no reason for him to have any particular grudge against Númenór aside from just carrying out his masters will.
__________________
Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. Last edited by mhagain; 05-11-2014 at 06:46 AM. |
|
05-11-2014, 06:50 AM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 433
|
I think it likely the Chief of the Nazgul was Numenorean. I don't have the citation, I'm lifting off the web, but Hammond & Scull, Reader's Companion, p. 20, a manuscript of notes, Tolkien [apparently] stated that the Witchking's name and background were not recorded, but that he was probably of Númenórean descent.
|
05-11-2014, 07:33 AM | #8 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
|
Quote:
I don't think it's unreasonable for the Lord of the Nazgûl to have been a Númenórean, but yes it's important to remember that he wasn't necessarily one. Quote:
Quote:
The Númenóreans had been settling Middle-earth during the reign of Tar-Minastir, Tar-Ciryatan's grandfather, however, which was still about a century after the War of the Elves and Sauron, so there were plenty of opportunities when Sauron might have been dispensing Rings.
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
|||
06-27-2014, 04:15 PM | #9 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 36
|
Didnt Gandalf say that the WK was a great sorcerer in life. I always figured the WK at least was a Dunadain that became a king in the colonies and that was the reason for Sauron to give him the ring in the 1st place. Then there was the easterling. The other 7 you all have as good a guess in this thread as any i have ever heard.
__________________
Fingolfin.....He passed over Dor-nu-fauglith like wind amid dust, and all that beheld his onslaught fled in amaze, thinking Orome himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Last edited by Yregwyn; 06-27-2014 at 07:56 PM. |
|
|