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Old 07-09-2020, 02:53 PM   #41
Galadriel55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I do still think of this as a first draft; the only way to tell if a song works is to sing it, and mumbling parts while writing it hasn't really fulfilled that. I'll have to try it sometime.
I would be down for a skype sing-along. (WhatsApp? Viber? Zoom? Teams? Whatever is used nowadays)


Quote:
She tells me your view of surgeons totally checks out. ^_~ Also I can confirm that singing the Oath without accompaniment sounds kind of dumb, but I knew the dangers when I took the job.

hS
Lol! There is a certain stereotype of surgeons, but they aren't actually this CelNCurlike. I have to admit though that, as a student in an OR, contaminating the sterile field is like the worst nightmare. It's like, if you can do just one thing, just don't contaminate the sterile field.

I think this part of the song is also weird cause it's more shouting than singing per se. Maybe if I spend another day observing a long procedure I'll come up with the rest. ^.^
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Old 07-09-2020, 07:30 PM   #42
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Another addition to the Google Doc collection

The Coming of Beren to Nargothrond


BEREN:
Is this not the wonder-filled* Nargothrond,
Refuge that to mortals has been forbidden?
Is this not the fair Finrod's golden throne
Upon which he governs his kingdom hidden?

ELVES:
You passed from under darkened dome,
You enter now the secret land.
BEREN:
Take me to Finrod's fabled home!
ELVES:
First tell us: are you foe or friend?
Are you foe or friend?
BEREN:
I must see Felagund, your King,
I must see Felagund, your King!

I beseech you, lend me your aid, my King!
To my father once you have made a promise
You gave him in battle a jeweled* ring
To repay with friendship his faithful service!

I would ask assistance of you, my King!
Barahir in battle once saved you, fighting!
After battle you gifted him your ring:
Token to you both of a promise binding!
FINROD:
This Man I recognize!
The son of that brave hero
Who saved me from demise,
To whom I owe my freedom!
BEREN:
Finrod Elvenking*, you are just and fair,
But with bitter poison is filled your kinsman. [peccant poison?]
To me love is greatest of gifts I bear, *
But to him my love merely is a reason!

Pure love for his daughter my heart commands [Pure love for his daughter commands my heart] **
He does not permit us to be together
For her hand a Silmaril he demands [For a Silmaril with her hand he'll part]
Such is his high price for his kingly honour!
FINROD:
What would you have of me,
Son of the Younger People,
To whom in time of need
I pay with service equal!
BEREN:
I would fain and gladly my love defend, **
I would fain fulfill the will of another,
I'm prepared to fight in a battle fell
With the Lord whose towers are black of colour!

I ask: give me men to lend strength in fight. [who would help me fight?]
I will challenge Him*** who sits on the Dark Throne
In the barren wasteland, the heart of Night;
From his crown I will tear a sacred star-stone!
FINROD:
One can't escape one's doom...
How could I have foreseen this?
This thought leads to a tomb
A vow from slumber rises!...
BEREN:
Carefree is the life in your halls, my King!
Years of blissful joy you have counted many.
Take back now your gift, your now worthless ring!
It has come to be of no use to any!

FINROD:
I hear naught but madness in what you said. [There's despair and madness in what you said?]
Thus finds me the chalice with my doom brewing.
I esteem my honour above my head,
But your fey idea will be our ruin!
BEREN:
If you could love until **
In love alone you'd have faith,
The cursŤd Silmaril
You would in your own blood bathe!




Overall I am quite happy that I managed to get through an entire song, which I didn't imagine I'd be able to do. But there are a lot of downsides to the way it's written now. Some rhymes are not at 100%, some content had to be changed or shuffled, I occasionally rely on stretched syllables too to fill the rhythm. Most importantly, I think, my phrasing throughout is too heavy-handed or weird, or not very Tolkienesque. I still end up following the Russian structure a lot, but in Russian sentence inversions are a lot easier than in English and don't sound so overbearing. And if there is a way to change the heaviness around to make it flow better, make all the changes you see fit! It's your turn to edit for style and content!

* Specific words that I am particularly not happy with and need replacement.
  • Wonder-filled: wondrous lacks a syllable. Wonderful doesn't have the same meaning. Marvelous fits but its usual meaning is also off. Why is it that words that used to express an effect on the viewer - wonderful, marvelous, awesome, fantastic - came to mean a very good evaluation (or a very bad one, in the case of awful)? How do you say "wonderful, but in the literal sense of the word?" :-( The literal translation would be more like "fairy tale", but I was hoping for a more suitable English description, and wondrous fits (a city Beren has only heard of in tales, probably very beautiful and skillfully built, well - like something that pops out from a fairy tale). If there was one more syllable. ><
  • Jeweled: was initially "golden", but that description is more fitting for a different Ring. Reading the description, it seems that other than snakes the prominent decoration of the ring was emeralds. But if there is a way to replace this with a less bizarre description, or rework the line to take out this word...
  • What do you think of Elvenking? I can't decide if it's quite good or quite bad.
  • Likewise, what do you think of "Love is the greatest of gifts I bear"? It's supposed to be "to me love is a precious gift", but in translation does it sound a bit like Beren is bringing the gift(s), as opposed to receiving them?
** Entire verses that definitely need reworking. The one where Beren explains that he is in love with Luthien, I have two versions, and aren't happy with either. When Beren tells Finrod what is it he wants - I got stuck on that verse, and ended up filling the space with nonsense and tautology. I am especially unhappy with the last line, but I want to keep the meaning of the second line (I want to fulfill another's will) because it's such a poignant description of Beren's situation. And the last stanza - Beren is supposed to say "if only you loved, breathed love alone [like air], you would bathe the ill-fated Silmaril in your blood". But it doesn't come out right.

*** My grammar is blanking, please help. I've read this so many times that words stopped making sense and King Gelafund is headed for Thangothrondrim. Does Him need a comma after it, before "who"?

When Beren pleas for two verses, he repeats lines 1 and 3. I played around with them here and made them different. Do you think it's better to keep just the better-sounding of the two versions?

I thought that my main joy would be the first two stanzas, Beren pleading for help. But at the end, my favourite lines are probably "I esteem my honour above my head, But your fey idea will be our ruin!". It feels like a perfect depiction of the original lines, without any stylistic or content stretches, and I love Finrod's dread at the coming choice.

When Finrod asks "what would you have of me?", it's clear from the context that this is what he means. But in Russian, until he sings the rest of the stanza, it could also be taken as "what else did you expect?", which I find hilarious in a parallel content universe way - but unfortunately untranslatable. But imagine for a second...

I looked at the partial V2 translation after I finished the first draft top to bottom, and I was surprised at how similar most of the lines are. The places where they differ significantly is where I deviate from the text. We use the same words to describe things, and I wasn't referencing the translation for the initial draft, only as a comparison for later editing. It's scary similar.



PS: one of my friends read your translations and was very impressed, especially at how faithful they are to the original. She is eager for more songs, and may even be able to coordinate a small ensemble of equally enthusiastic people to trial them with music. :-)


PPS: Going back to the Oath, I think that while typing in snatches of breaks I forgot to mention that I absolutely love the new lines, "One single hope for the House of the Houseless, Sworn is the Oath, though all Arda reject us!". Both the earth part, which I told you about, but the layers of meaning to Houseless as well. Among other things, the fact that their houses have just been destroyed in the Bragollach and they are refugees more than guests in Nargothrond. Perfection.
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Last edited by Galadriel55; 07-09-2020 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Keep adding little changes to the translation
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Old 07-09-2020, 09:21 PM   #43
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A shower-inspired stanza or two, immortalized here before it disappears from my working memory:

O my Lord of Fear and Torment!
We, your most devoted servants
Wish to chase away your boredom
At this hour late!

Can you give a decent reason
Why lies empty my black prison?
None to play with. So displeasing
At this hour late!

(Later)

What's the purpose of your torment?
It intensifies the boredom.
You're already thralls and servants!
Get out of my sight!



The fourth lines are supposed to all rhyme, but I'm not sure I can do that, so for now leaving it as is. To be revisited.


Hui, you got me addicted!
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Old 07-10-2020, 03:05 AM   #44
Huinesoron
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Oh, excellent! I've just had a singthrough of Beren In Nargothrond, and it works pretty well. It's clear you work with the scansion differently to me (I sacrifice syllable count to put the emphasis where I feel like it naturally falls, you accept emphasis that falls a little oddly to keep the syllables in place), but both ways work fine. Translating songs is always a balancing act.

I'm... not quite going to go through this line-by-line, but it might feel that way a bit.

-wonder-filled - given that you use 'fain' later, I think 'wondERous' wouldn't be inappropriate; it's slightly old fashioned but makes the point well. I also considered 'magical', but that shades a bit too much of Samwise.

-Refuge that to mortals has been forbidden? - this is one of those scansion lines. There's a slight pause in the middle of 'mor-tals'; if I were writing it I'd have said something like 'Refuge that to Men has been long forbidden'. But I'm not; I'm just noting it because I noticed it.

-You worked Felegund in! Nice. ^_^

-To my father once you have made a promise - I'm not sure that tense structure works. Technically it would be 'once you did make', but that's awful; 'once you had made' is probably better.

-I think 'jewelled' works well; jewels are a bit of a thing in this story, so it fits, and in Version Two I'm pretty sure what he's holding is a huge prop gem.

-I think if the original text repeats the lines in these two verses, it's probably best to stick to that. I'd probably go with the versions from the first repeat.

-I like Finrod's first lines a lot.

-'Elvenking' is nice... but 'Felagund' scans exactly as well, so I'm not sure why you didn't use it.

-I don't even recognise 'peccant' (neither does spellcheck!), so I'd stick with 'bitter'.

-To me love is greatest of gifts I bear - how about 'Love to me is greatest of jewels I bear'? It ties back to the jewel theme, explicitly connecting their love to the Silmaril; makes a direct comparison with the Ring of Barahir; and doesn't imply he's planning to give said love to Finrod.

-'Pure love' &c - I think your parenthetical version works pretty well, actually! 'commands my heart' is a nice turn of phrase.

-What would you have of me? - I think we can actually preserve the ambiguity here. What do you think of this:

What were you thinking, friend
Whose kin I owe my freedom?
What aid can I now lend
Son of the Younger Children?


-The 'fain' verse. I really like 'fain', but my reworked proposal drops it entirely (because I think it works best as a pair, and I had to drop at least one):

I wish but to fight my love to defend
I would not reject the will of another
I'm prepared to fight to the bitter end
Against the Lord of Fetters in northern tower!


If you don't like the extra syllable in 'against', it can be 'With'. (And 'Lord of Fetters in' can be 'Lord of Pain in his', but I enjoy Lord of Fetters.) I'm pleased to hear you didn't like 'black of colour'; I stumbled badly over that line.

-I think 'who would help me fight' works better grammatically.

-Not comma needed after Him. I mean, grammatically it might be, but this is a sung denunciation.

-A vow from slumber rises - For interlinking purposes, surely we have to say 'The Oath from slumber rises'? Finrod would definitely know that his houseguests are going to react badly to this.

-Beren's denunciation of Finrod is powerful stuff. I would change 'it has come to be' to it has proved to be', to give overtones of 'your promise was never worth anything'.

-I think the 'naught but madness' version of the line is better.

-Thus finds me the chalice with my doom brewing - I think the grammar is doing too much work here. How about In this poisoned chalice is my doom brewing? The 'poisoned chalice' idiom in English has an implied 'handed to me', so I don't think it needs to be in there directly.

-The honour/fey lines are great! I'm not at all surprised you like them.

-The final stanza. I'm going to cheat here, because Melian says something very similar in her Aria. So:

If you have loved until
Love was your breath and water
You'd bathe the Silmaril
In your heart's blood and sorrow


(I know; I just rhymed 'water' and 'sorrow'. In my defence, British English barely pronounces final Rs, and the vowels are pretty close too.)

Phew! That was fun. I think you've done a great job with this one. It's interesting, because I never really noticed this song while watching; it just sort of passes me by. Different folks, &c.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
PS: one of my friends read your translations and was very impressed, especially at how faithful they are to the original. She is eager for more songs, and may even be able to coordinate a small ensemble of equally enthusiastic people to trial them with music. :-)
Please thank your friend for me. It is nice to know the work is appreciated. The idea of someone actually singing these is incredible; would they work from the chords in the full Russian lyrics, or what? (I am not wise in the ways of music.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
PPS: Going back to the Oath, I think that while typing in snatches of breaks I forgot to mention that I absolutely love the new lines, "One single hope for the House of the Houseless, Sworn is the Oath, though all Arda reject us!". Both the earth part, which I told you about, but the layers of meaning to Houseless as well. Among other things, the fact that their houses have just been destroyed in the Bragollach and they are refugees more than guests in Nargothrond. Perfection.
Thank you! It's always really nice to find a line you can just stuff with meaning. I also really like the Arda/rejection part, so thank you again for highlighting it.

I will come back to Emo Sauron later; I've been an hour at this post already!

hS
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Old 07-10-2020, 04:15 AM   #45
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Throwing another half-song onto the field: this one was hard! I forgot how fast Beren and Luthien sing.

The Meeting of Beren and Luthien

BEREN:
The forest is worn, lost is its green
Raiment
I had a band, loyal and keen
All gone.
I had to flee the shadow that fell
The last out
Shielding my kin, my soul a mere shell
Near done.

Death was my constant companion
Only reason I lived - her plan!
Company turning to mud, fallen
Mud and swamps of our forest homeland

How you have tangled your paths
Forest!
Where are my kin and my house?
Whither?
The enemy's howling has died away
Behind me
Here is my blood, fresh on the earth
Bleeding

Silver the moon points his bow at my back, aiming
You have become a weed in the marsh, wilting
Why do you weep, Son of Beor, brave one?
Where did they fall, where are they buried, kindred?

LUTHIEN:
You came from the darkened woods
I thought you a wild beast
You lay in a grassy pool
I thought you the early snow
A shadow was at your back...
And the cold of winter had gathered round
Like a frost on the Gates of Morn
That had spread to your weary brow.

BEREN:
The shadow that followed behind was my forthcoming death!

LUTHIEN:
I heard you speak of death
And it aged me a thousand years
I banished her once, but by Eru's grace
I had never known her touch!
When she came her breath made the leaves turn brown
And fall to the ground like tears
Is she your betrothed, with ebon gown
That she follows you, longs for you so much?

BEREN:
Betrothed indeed, and my kindred before me as well-!

LUTHIEN:
I'm touching your wounds, I'm feeling your blood
And the beat of my heart is thunder
You slept as the years flowed past like a stream
I grew weary of counting time!
I am reading your fate like an open book
But the words I read are too crude
Your language is flat like the distant sky
Forever out of reach


I know there are syllables dropping all over the place, but I can't work out how many. I'd appreciate a pointer for any particularly egregious lines. I finally see what you mean about 'й' being a problem; it took me until right now to realise why Beren's 'the shadow is death' line wasn't matching up.

I've stopped in the middle because... well, that's how far I've got, and I need to know how far it's gone wrong. As far as I can tell there's not a lot of rhyming in this song, but I'm worried there might be some strange internal rhymes floating around.

hS
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Old 07-10-2020, 04:36 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I would be down for a skype sing-along. (WhatsApp? Viber? Zoom? Teams? Whatever is used nowadays)
My brother-in-law has had us hopping between Zoom, Skype, Discord and whatever Google are calling their latest chat program. My head is spinning!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
A shower-inspired stanza or two, immortalized here before it disappears from my working memory:

O my Lord of Fear and Torment!
We, your most devoted servants
Wish to chase away your boredom
At this hour late!

Can you give a decent reason
Why lies empty my black prison?
None to play with. So displeasing
At this hour late!

(Later)

What's the purpose of your torment?
It intensifies the boredom.
You're already thralls and servants!
Get out of my sight!


The fourth lines are supposed to all rhyme, but I'm not sure I can do that, so for now leaving it as is. To be revisited.
This is good! Nothing pops out as needing changing, and I think they rhyme enough. It's great fun to sing, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Hui, you got me addicted!
Now my plan has found fruition
G-5-5, complete your mission
Translate ev'ry song from Russian
At this hour late!


^_~

hS
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Old 07-10-2020, 05:41 AM   #47
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Thanks for all the comments on Beren&Finrod. There was a lot of facepalming because duh, I should have thought of that. Unfortunately my schedule is not conducive to long revisions atm, but I will rework your comments in when I get home.

Meanwhile, here's a Walk To Work stanza:

O my Lord, upon our border
There is something out of order
Unidentified intruders (iiikh, will reconsider this line)
Entering your lands!
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Old 07-10-2020, 06:55 AM   #48
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I've been adding your translations to the Consolidated Version, by the way; let me know if you'd rather I didn't and I'll remove them.

I've also piece together the second half of Luthien's meeting with Beren. This was another one that ran into short line issues, but from the other direction - "What is" has one less syllable than the Russian equivalent! I think I got it sorted.

The Meeting of Luthien and Beren, ctd

LUTHIEN:
What is "agony"?

BEREN:
Pain is the enemy death releases us from

LUTHIEN:
What are "battle" and "war"?

BEREN:
A delight to the poets but abhorrent to ev'ryone

LUTHIEN:
What are "hate" and "emnity"?

BEREN:
They're the bread of war, its water and living breath

LUTHIEN:
And then what is "love"?

BEREN:
Love is the bliss that stands between hate and death!

LUTHIEN:
Don't look me in the eye, I'm shaking with fear
At being alone with you
Hatred and death look out of your eyes
Enclosed in a single view
No-one has dared to see me this way
In all of the endless years

BEREN:
Until you drew me out with the light of your heart
I had known only dark and tears!

LUTHIEN:
Dear friend, you are moving far too quickly
I'm sure I've given you no cause
Fates apart, joining them is risky

BEREN:
Then you weren't waiting for me?

LUTHIEN:
I was!

But the sun shines not shine in midnight's kingdom
Rivers do not run into dry seas.
Our story is written to its ending
You weren't searching for me.

BEREN:
I was.

What is "loyalty"?

LUTHIEN:
The song that the nightingale sings in the starry night

BEREN:
What's "eternity", then?

LUTHIEN:
A house where there's room enough for you and I.

BEREN:
What is "immortal'ty"?

LUTHIEN:
The air of the forest
And the taste of ashberries bright

BEREN:
And then what is "love"?

LUTHIEN:
Love makes the weight of immortal living light!


I have absolutely no idea what an ashberry is, but I figured I'd let the Russians have that one. I'm somewhat annoyed by 'immortal'ty', but my only alternative was something like "Immortality next?", and I want to keep the 'what's in place.

hS
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Old 07-10-2020, 08:49 AM   #49
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I, um... I got bored.

Truth (Finrod's Last Song)

An arrow set in flight
Its feathers white and gleaming
Who lay in arrow's sight?
Who knew its rise and falling?
Whose fingers fair
Chose its course through the air
And sped it to its target?
What the archer's whispered prayer
When took he his aim there
And set his bowstring singing?

Truth, you soar high above despair, singing
Chase shadows out as an arrow piercing
In Land of shadows, on thy threshold are my feet
But death and fate together, aren't so strong as thee

Forsaking home and kin
Forsaking my own soul
I hear your whispered call
Across the mountains tall
Here, abandoned in the snow
A thrall to any foe
My path a mystery
I sought for only thee
To learn what holy fires
Are blazing in the eyes
Of Secondborn inheritors!

Ah! To read the flight of birds
Is in my gifted powers
But mysterious still
Is the secret heart of mortals.
There, blind death beats within
A war no-one can win
Unbeatable, unreasoning.
But, in one moment that blinds
Obey your heart and find
A blazing understanding!

A golden dust is shining in the heights
Sky-ships are burning in the sunset light
The cursťd Silmarils are blazing far away
But there's a fire that shines brighter e'en than they!

Do not close up your gates - take me in
While I can see you, Truth - here within
Fulfilled my part at last, without knowing the price
I thank your mercy, Truth, in showing me the light!


The hardest line was that 'Whose fingers fair' right at the beginning; as far as I can tell, it needs to be four syllables and rhyme with the next line. A lot of rejected version there.

hS
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Old 07-10-2020, 04:18 PM   #50
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Finally home and able to write an answer!

The Coming of Beren to Nargothrond - REVISED


BEREN:
Is this not the wonderous Nargothrond,
Refuge that to Men has been long forbidden?
Is this not the fair Finrod's golden throne
Upon which he governs his kingdom hidden?

ELVES:
You passed from under darkened dome,
You enter now the secret land.
BEREN:
Take me to Finrod's fabled home!
ELVES:
First tell us: are you foe or friend?
Are you foe or friend?
BEREN:
I must see Felagund, your King,
I must see Felagund, your King!

I beseech you, lend me your aid, my King!
To my father once you had made a promise
You gave him in battle a jeweled ring
To repay with friendship his faithful service!

I beseech you, lend me your aid, my King!
Barahir in battle once saved you, fighting!
After battle you gifted him your ring:
Token to you both of a promise binding!
FINROD:
This Man I recognize!
The son of that brave hero
Who saved me from demise,
To whom I owe my freedom!
BEREN:
Finrod Elvenking, you are just and fair,
But with bitter poison is filled your kinsman.
Love to me is greatest of jewels I bear,
But to him my love merely is a reason!

Pure love for his daughter commands my heart
He does not permit us to be together
For a Silmaril with her hand he'll part.
Such is his high price for his kingly honour!
FINROD:
What were you thinking, friend
Whose kin I owe my freedom?
What aid can I now lend
Son of the Younger Children?
BEREN:
I would fain in battle my love defend,
I would fain fulfill the will of another,
I'm prepared to fight to the bitter end
'Gainst the Lord of Fetters in northern tower!

I ask: give me men who would help me fight!
I will challenge Him who sits on the Dark Throne
In the barren wasteland, the heart of Night;
From his iron crown I will tear a star-stone!
FINROD:
One can't escape one's doom...
How could I have foreseen this?
This thought leads to a tomb
A Curse from slumber rises!...
BEREN:
Carefree is the life in your halls, my King!
Years of blissful joy you have counted many.
Take back now your gift, your now worthless ring!
It has proved to be of no use to any!

FINROD:
I hear naught but madness in what you said.
In this poisoned chalice is my doom brewing.
I esteem my honour above my head,
But your fey idea will be our ruin!
BEREN:
If you have loved until
Love was your breath and water
You'd bathe the Silmaril
In your heart's blood and sorrow




First things first - starting from the top.

Quote:
-wonder-filled - given that you use 'fain' later, I think 'wondERous' wouldn't be inappropriate; it's slightly old fashioned but makes the point well. I also considered 'magical', but that shades a bit too much of Samwise.
I did not realize "wonderous" was an actual word. In fact, my computer highlights it in red and google corrects it to "wondrous". But language requires word inventions to accommodate changing meaning. Wonderous it is!

Quote:
-Refuge that to mortals has been forbidden? - this is one of those scansion lines. There's a slight pause in the middle of 'mor-tals'; if I were writing it I'd have said something like 'Refuge that to Men has been long forbidden'. But I'm not; I'm just noting it because I noticed it.
Right, that's an example of the heavy-handedness. It technically checks out but it's heavy.

Quote:
To my father once you have made a promise - I'm not sure that tense structure works. Technically it would be 'once you did make', but that's awful; 'once you had made' is probably better.
Yes, grammar. That thing that gets sacrificed first.

Quote:
I think 'jewelled' works well; jewels are a bit of a thing in this story, so it fits, and in Version Two I'm pretty sure what he's holding is a huge prop gem.
Hmm. I'm still dubious about it, but I trust your judgement.

Quote:
I think if the original text repeats the lines in these two verses, it's probably best to stick to that. I'd probably go with the versions from the first repeat.
Hmm. First line - possibly ("assistance" is not as Tolkienesque as "aid"). But third line I think is better off different. I think the second stanza doesn't flow as well with the "jeweled" line.

Quote:
'Elvenking' is nice... but 'Felagund' scans exactly as well, so I'm not sure why you didn't use it.
I've only thought of using "Felagund" as I was going to bed last night. And then I thought it sounds even heavier. On the flip side, "Elvenking" sounds a bit too Hobbit in English.

Finrod Elvenking, you are just and fair
Finrod Felagund, you are just and fair


Or - Great King Felagund?

Quote:
To me love is greatest of gifts I bear - how about 'Love to me is greatest of jewels I bear'? It ties back to the jewel theme, explicitly connecting their love to the Silmaril; makes a direct comparison with the Ring of Barahir; and doesn't imply he's planning to give said love to Finrod.
That's a way out! The reason it was "gifts" is because in Russian Beren says "for me love is a precious gift, for him love is merely an excuse". But your way works better!

Quote:
'Pure love' &c - I think your parenthetical version works pretty well, actually! 'commands my heart' is a nice turn of phrase.
The only thing both versions fail to do is remove the ambiguity of which of the love and heart commands the other. But the good part is that it doesn't really matter!

Quote:
What were you thinking, friend
Whose kin I owe my freedom?
What aid can I now lend
Son of the Younger Children?
I think this one wins because of "Younger Children". Evidently I forgot how The Sil sounds in English and am translating literally to the letter. *facepalm* I don't think it's strictly necessary to preserve the ambiguity, it just amuses me - especially with Finrod giving Beren The Look.

Quote:
The 'fain' verse. I really like 'fain', but my reworked proposal drops it entirely (because I think it works best as a pair, and I had to drop at least one):

I wish but to fight my love to defend
I would not reject the will of another
I'm prepared to fight to the bitter end
Against the Lord of Fetters in northern tower!

If you don't like the extra syllable in 'against', it can be 'With'. (And 'Lord of Fetters in' can be 'Lord of Pain in his', but I enjoy Lord of Fetters.) I'm pleased to hear you didn't like 'black of colour'; I stumbled badly over that line.
Oh god, "black of colour". That is easily the worst line there. I can't believe I didn't think of "tower" as a rhyme, considering I even used it in the sentence! I like your idea for the ending, but I wonder if it's possible to keep the fains. How about:

I would fain in battle my love defend,
I would fain fulfill the will of another,
I'm prepared to fight to the bitter end
'Gainst the Lord of Fetters in northern tower!


Quote:
A vow from slumber rises - For interlinking purposes, surely we have to say 'The Oath from slumber rises'? Finrod would definitely know that his houseguests are going to react badly to this.
Okay, when I got to this point I really facepalmed, because it's not even supposed to be "vow" by the text, it's supposed to be "Curse" - and if we choose to switch it up for interlinking purposes, of course it would be "Oath"! I have no idea how it ended up as "vow" in my head. You wouldn't believe how much I kicked myself this morning when I read your post.

Quote:
Thus finds me the chalice with my doom brewing - I think the grammar is doing too much work here. How about In this poisoned chalice is my doom brewing? The 'poisoned chalice' idiom in English has an implied 'handed to me', so I don't think it needs to be in there directly.
Oh yes, the grammar. (Do you see an emerging theme? )

It's the same in Russian, really. The musical says "Thus the hand of fate presents me my chalice", implying the doom. It could easily be changed to the chalice of doom with an implied "handed". Honestly, the necessary and sufficient requirement for the idiom to work is probably just "chalice". :-)

Quote:
The honour/fey lines are great! I'm not at all surprised you like them.
Happy that you agree. :-) I changed up Beren's "star-stone" line a bit to fall more naturally, and now that stanza probably comes in second place, as well as the denunciation.

Quote:
The final stanza. I'm going to cheat here, because Melian says something very similar in her Aria. So:
Yes. Definitely yes.

Thank you for the detailed comments! The piece absolutely sounds better with your suggestions. And the more we polish the lines, the more they will shine. So keep it going! :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Please thank your friend for me. It is nice to know the work is appreciated. The idea of someone actually singing these is incredible; would they work from the chords in the full Russian lyrics, or what? (I am not wise in the ways of music.)
So she knows someone who knows how to go about this properly, apparently. And yes, we'd follow the cords. I could play the first Thingol/Melian duet on guitar if I modify the cords to C (I believe they are in G as written). The rest of the songs I probably can only play on piano with a basic accompaniment; the cords are too complex for my guitar skills, and for hers too. Alternatively we find these other people she may be able to loop in, who include much better guitar players. But this is just an idea floating in the air. Keep in mind too that we live in different cities and don't see each other that often, so it may be a while before (and if) this actually happens. The other idea that had the audacity to float up during our conversation was that maybe we'd eventually translate the entire musical into a workable version... *falls quiet before things get jinxed*


The rest will get a separate post, this one is already long enough. Like you, I didn't necessarily intend to reply to every single thing, but it turned out that way anyways. Į\_(ツ)_/Į
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Last edited by Galadriel55; 07-10-2020 at 04:25 PM. Reason: Grammar, what else could it be? *rolleyes*
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Old 07-10-2020, 04:53 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Throwing another half-song onto the field: this one was hard! I forgot how fast Beren and Luthien sing.
So - interesting! Nargothrond kinda fell under your radar as a plot song, and this one fell under mine. My mind glossed over it as "well yeah it's there", but I didn't really register it much beyond that. And because it's absent in V1 I barely know it and will have to listen to it again a few times to give any comments about the translation. I gave it a listen just now, and probably one of the reasons I avoided ever returning to this song is that here, more so than anywhere else, Mr. Fierce is just sooo not Beren, to the point that I have an itch to report him for sexual harassment on Luthien's behalf.

Quote:
I know there are syllables dropping all over the place, but I can't work out how many. I'd appreciate a pointer for any particularly egregious lines. I finally see what you mean about 'й' being a problem; it took me until right now to realise why Beren's 'the shadow is death' line wasn't matching up.
Ahhhh no, "й" is just the consonant "y", as in "boy". However, "ё" (yo) is the one often written as "e" (ye). Not sure what you mean about that line, since the vowel in "смерть" (death) is "ye" as written.

Quote:
As far as I can tell there's not a lot of rhyming in this song, but I'm worried there might be some strange internal rhymes floating around.
There is rhyming, but it seems to be separated by veeeery long lines, so it's difficult to catch. I promise to rewatch this song and get back to you on the editing, and I'll also do a rhythm/rhyme transcription. But first I'll address Finrod's Finale, which I actually know (and love).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I've been adding your translations to the Consolidated Version, by the way; let me know if you'd rather I didn't and I'll remove them.
Absolutely! Everything should be in one place. And then we can be all like "What! You can't tell which parts were mine, and which were the Dunadan's?" :P

Quote:
I have absolutely no idea what an ashberry is, but I figured I'd let the Russians have that one.
Рябина is both rowan and wild ash (which I believe are actually the same trees). Their berries are very pretty, you can make all sorts of stuff out of them. They ripen late in the fall and you can eat them after they frost over, that's when they taste best apparently. I never tried them myself.
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Old 07-10-2020, 04:55 PM   #52
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So I've just checked, and "wonderous" is actually the very first spelling recorded in the OED for 'wondrous': The wonderous serpente Of the seuen metals, made by enchauntment. (1555) I think we can use it. It's just the same trick as 'cur-SED'.

'Younger Children': um, don't go taking my Noldorisms as canon. I think this one happens to be right, but I throw in a lot of things just because they feel right. In this case, Children of Iluvatar + Younger is pretty natural.

The song's looking great! At some point I'll go through and sing all of these and flag any lines that stick out, but sight-only it looks good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
The other idea that had the audacity to float up during our conversation was that maybe we'd eventually translate the entire musical into a workable version... *falls quiet before things get jinxed*
Heh. 'Eventually'. By my count there are 22 songs in Version 2 (the Extended Libretto would make that 23, because it splices in some Daeron into the middle of 'Hate'. But they're clearly a single song in V2. There are 27 songs total in the Extended Libretto.). Counting the unfinished Sauron and his Minions, we already have nine of them drafted. That's nearly half, in... what, a week? I have a fairly short attention span for weird projects, but not that short. We'll get there*.

*Where 'there' is defined as a functional draft. I make no promises at revisions; I am abysmal at those.

hS
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Old 07-10-2020, 05:02 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
to the point that I have an itch to report him for sexual harassment on Luthien's behalf.
NO KIDDING. There's a reason I gave Luthien a literal 'you're moving too fast', even if she does walk it back right away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Ahhhh no, "й" is just the consonant "y", as in "boy". However, "ё" (yo) is the one often written as "e" (ye). Not sure what you mean about that line, since the vowel in "смерть" (death) is "ye" as written.
Huh. Well, in that case I have no idea what's going on, because ThugBeren very clearly sings a couple more syllables than the text contains. I'm pretty sure he's turning those consonant Ys into 'ya's to do it, but have no clue why he would. (Except that, having grown up speaking Taliska and North Country Sindarin, he's got a bit of an accent... )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
There is rhyming, but it seems to be separated by veeeery long lines, so it's difficult to catch. I promise to rewatch this song and get back to you on the editing, and I'll also do a rhythm/rhyme transcription.
Thank you! I think I spotted most of it, but it can be hard to tell what's meant to rhyme. The Extended Libretto says that this song had a different author, which may explain why it's so different.

Beren aside, V2 Luthien kills it in this one. She may not have the hair, but her acting and singing are spot on.

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Old 07-10-2020, 06:21 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
The hardest line was that 'Whose fingers fair' right at the beginning; as far as I can tell, it needs to be four syllables and rhyme with the next line. A lot of rejected version there.
Uhhh, I hate to say this, I really hate to say this... You're missing a downbeat.

chya LYOH-ka-YA ru-KA (Whose [LA la] fingers fair)
ye-YO skvoz OB-la-KA (Chose its course through the air)
mog-LA na-PRA-vit k TSE-li (And sped it to its target?) *which ideally would rhyme with the last line, but not critical for the song to work

Whose fingers skilled and fair? Which archer's/bowman's fingers fair? Do you have any of the discarded versions saved up somewhere by any chance?

Quote:
Truth, you soar high above despair, singing
Chase shadows out as an arrow piercing
This needs to be altered for rhythm purposes. You have the perfect number of syllables, except the downbeats don't match the words. You end up having singING, and arROW pierCING.

Can I think of an alternative? Let me try.

Truth, singing, soar above the dark despair
As arrow sharp chase shadows from the air


Or not. Flag as "to be revisited".

Quote:
I hear your whispered call
A minor detail, but maybe "heard", in past tense? This in my mind is supposed to echo (and answer) Galadriel's question of what drew Finrod to Middle-earth, and Finrod's own questions of what was his life worth. But even as a stand-alone, it still seems to refer to the time when the Noldor departed, to Finrod's past.

Quote:
Here, abandoned in the snow
A thrall to any foe
My path a mystery
I sought for only thee
To learn what holy fires
Are blazing in the eyes
Of Secondborn inheritors!
I have a bit of trouble with this stanza (except first couplet, that's perfect). The main issue is that the "mystery" line doesn't seem to fall into tune at all. When I read this part at work I did the gymnastics to get around the syllable count and make do, but right now I just can't recall what trick I used to get there. On the principles of constructive criticism and generating variation, I will attempt a revision:

Here
Abandoned in the snow,
A thrall to any foe,
You only I sought ever
On pathways undefined
To learn what holy fires
Are blazing in the eyes
Of Secondborn successors!


Meh. That's not it either. One more thing To Be Revisited when inspiration is a bit less scarce.

Quote:
Unbeatable, unreasoning.
This line is a bit too long and has to be forcefully squished to make the cut. Might I suggest "Unbeaten, unrelenting" as substitute?

Quote:
A golden dust is shining in the heights
Sky-ships are burning in the sunset light
The cursťd Silmarils are blazing far away
But there's a fire that shines brighter e'en than they!
My favourite stanza! Especially the first two lines. Beautifully put and perfectly translated.

Quote:
Do not close up your gates - take me in
While I can see you, Truth - here within
Fulfilled my part at last, without knowing the price
I thank your mercy, Truth, in showing me the light!
I am very impressed, because it would not have occurred to me to translate it this way. I don't even know how I would do it, but this works very well. A minor nitpicking of rhythm, pro forma:

Don't close your gates upon me - take me in
While I can see you, Truth - down here within
Fulfilled my part at last, not knowing of the price
I thank your mercy, Truth, in showing me the light!



Yay Finrod! You finally realize that your life wasn't worthless after all! I love the philosophical dig into Finrod's character that the musical makes. It's beautifully done and well-developed throughout the story.


Edit: crossed with both of your posts
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Old 07-10-2020, 06:34 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
So I've just checked, and "wonderous" is actually the very first spelling recorded in the OED for 'wondrous': The wonderous serpente Of the seuen metals, made by enchauntment. (1555) I think we can use it. It's just the same trick as 'cur-SED'.
I guess that's the official stamp of approval!

Quote:
'Younger Children': um, don't go taking my Noldorisms as canon. I think this one happens to be right, but I throw in a lot of things just because they feel right. In this case, Children of Iluvatar + Younger is pretty natural.
Enc of Arda says they are called the Younger Children of Iluvatar and the Second People. "Younger People" is definitely a crossover. And I like "Younger" better than "Second" in that context, it's more... brotherly? I am still somewhat attached to the first version, but I think it's mainly because it aligns with the Russian more closely and I am biased that way. I think your judgement is more objective here.

Quote:
The song's looking great! At some point I'll go through and sing all of these and flag any lines that stick out, but sight-only it looks good.
If you want to actually go through them aloud together, the offer of skype'n'all still stands. I am home all weekend and likely get off work early on Monday. If you're interested, shoot me a PM and we'll coordinate.

Quote:
Heh. 'Eventually'. By my count there are 22 songs in Version 2 (the Extended Libretto would make that 23, because it splices in some Daeron into the middle of 'Hate'. But they're clearly a single song in V2. There are 27 songs total in the Extended Libretto.). Counting the unfinished Sauron and his Minions, we already have nine of them drafted. That's nearly half, in... what, a week? I have a fairly short attention span for weird projects, but not that short. We'll get there*.

*Where 'there' is defined as a functional draft. I make no promises at revisions; I am abysmal at those.
Hey, that's me! I do revisions! I am abysmal at functional drafts because my inspiration (ie the state in which you believe that what you're making is actually good stuff) dies out too quickly for the draft to become functional, but I can revise it for months after!
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Old 07-10-2020, 09:08 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Beren aside, V2 Luthien kills it in this one. She may not have the hair, but her acting and singing are spot on.
I like V2 Luthien very much! It's V2 Beren that turns my stomach. And Jareth!Finrod. (Actually, when discussing different versions with my friend - apparently there are many more scattered among Russian social media - we agreed that in V2 you really shouldn't watch Jareth!Finrod, and preferably not hear him either. I would say the same for Mr. Fierce but she is of better mind of his singing/expression than I am.)

I like how in this song she seems so surprised at the concept of death - and that she sees Death as a shadow behind Beren and thinks it is a spirit, perhaps another person.


Anyways, here is the promised B&L breakdown. By the way, looking at the author's site lyrics vs V2 lyrics, there are minor differences, but not significant. Also, FYI, the author misspelled "Beor" as "Beorn", in case you ever look at the original text.

I meant to do this step by step for each melodic theme, but turns out that grouping things by theme is actually more complicated, as I wrote a mini essay on just the first stanza. So scrap that, I will just DADADA the whole thing.


Beren's solo: *** several times doesn't stick to its ideal rhythm, which means more leniency for us as well

DA da da DAAA da DA da da DAAA (1)
DA DA (X ** the letters are near rhymes)
DA da da DAAA da DA da da DAAA (1)
DA DA (Y)
DA da da DAAA da DA da da DAAA (2)
[da] DA DA (X)
DA da da DA [da DA] DA da da DAAA (2) (this line breaks the rhythm because they force a word into an unnatural downbeat, but this is what it should be like)
DA DA (Y)

(Slow part: death watched my back...)
DA da da DA da da DA DA (1)
DA[a] da DA da da DA ... DA DA (2)
DA da [da] DA da da DA ... DA DA (1)
DA da da DAaa DA da da DA DA (2)
It took me forever to transcribe this because it makes no sense, and probably doesn't need to be followed exactly. Essentially it goes to a count of 3 - which you do anyways, I see. I should have checked your translation before I launched into this.

Actually, you know what? It took me ridiculously long. I am skipping over to Luthien's entrance, and screw Beren with his willy nilly rhythm. I will, however, do the rhymes. N means no rhyme that I can identify.

N / A (how you tangled your paths, forest!)
N / B
N / A
N / B

1 / A (moon aims at my back)
1 / B [possibly 1 is just coincidental though]
N / A
N / B

Luthien comes out, they duet. Luthien much better at holding a rhythm. She is not very good at simple rhyming though.

(you came out of the wild forests)
da DA da da DA da DA
da DA da da DA da DA (1)
da DA da da DA da DA
da DA da da DA da DA (2)
da DA da da DA da DA
da DA da [-] DA da da DA da da DA (1)
da DA da da DA da [da] DA
[da] da DA da da DA da DA (2)


(the shadow at my back is death)
DA da da DA [-] da DA [-] da DA da da DA [a count of 3 with some words stretched across 2 counts]


(I heard the word "death") - and repeated the same melody with more rapid syllables.
da da DA da da DA da da
[tri-pa-let] DA da da DA da DA (1)
[tri-pa-let] DA da da da DA da da [da]
da da DA da da DA da DA (2)
da da DA da DA da da DA da da DA da
da DA da da DA da DA (1)
da DA da DA da da DA da da DA
da da DA da DA da da DA da DA (2)

(Not just me - all my people are betrothed with her)
da DA da DA da da DA da DA da da DA

(I touch your unhealed wounds)
da da DA da da DA da da DA da DA
da DA da da DA da da DA (1)
da DA da da DA da da DA da da DA
da DA da DA da da DA (2)
da da DA da DA da da DA da DA
da da DA da DA da da DA (1)
da da DA da DA da da DA da DA da
da da DA da da DA da Da (2)




Since you conveniently split the song here in your posts, this will be where I stop the transcript too and make a few comments on the actual text. Holy moly this is taking me too long - partially because I don't remember the melody and check it line by line to make sure I got it right.

ALSO, and this is GOOD NEWS for us: they are guilty of breaking the rhythm scheme a couple times, and their scheme isn't as strict as the other songs. Basically keep a count of 3 in your head and fit the words over top. The key part is to hit the "one", the downbeat, and the offbeats are often stretched or trippled or what have you.


What I could do is just go though it and do little rhythm corrections (bolded) to illustrate the point. And will add my thoughts in between.



Forest is worn, lost is its green
Raiment
I had a band, loyal and keen
All gone.
I had to flee the shadow that fell
The last out [technically "the" hangs off, but the original text also has a beat hanging off at this spot, so HA!]
Shielding my kin, my soul a mere shell
Near done.

Death was my constant companion [this line is interesting in Russian: death watched/protected my back]
Only reason I lived - her plan! [said the way you would say "don't shoot him when you take him captive, I need him alive!" ... a bit more ominous perhaps than your interpretation]
Company turning to mud, fallen
Mud and swamps of our forest homeland

How you have tangled your paths
Forest!
Where are my kin and my house?
Whither?
Enemy's howling is quiet
Behind me [rhythm-wise you can't have both "away" and "behind", because they overlap on the same off-beat.]
Here is my blood, fresh on the earth
Bleeding

Silver the moon points his bow at my back, aiming
You have become a weed in the marsh, wilting
Why do you weep, Son of Beor, brave one?
Where did they fall, where are they buried, kindred? [A+ for rhythm. Most of it fits perfectly, just minor adjustments ]

LUTHIEN:
You came from the darkened woods
I thought you a wild [?] beast [another syllable begs itself here, or "wild" is stretched over two notes and sounds a little too stretchy]
You lay in a grassy pool
I thought you the early snow
A shadow was at your back...
And cold of winter had gathered around
Like a frost on the Gates of Morn
That had spread to your weary brow.

BEREN:
The shadow that followed behind was my forthcoming death! [maybe "follows", in present? Also, even though it doesn't match Beren's words, it still fits into the rhythm. That's the beauty of this piece.]

LUTHIEN: [this rhyming scheme is perfect. You got it. )
I heard you speak of death
And it aged me a thousand years
I banished her once, but by Eru's grace
I had never known her touch! [just pointing another difference in the Russian: she says she doesn't know what she banished]
When she came her breath made the leaves turn yellow
And fall to the ground like tears
Is she your betrothed, with ebony gown
That she follows you, longs for you so much?

BEREN:
Betrothed indeed, and my kindred before me as well-!

LUTHIEN:
I'm touching your wounds, I'm feeling your blood
And the beat of my heart is loud
You slept as the years flowed past like a stream
I grew weary of counting time!
I am reading your fate like an open book
But the words I read are too crude
Your language is flat like the distant sky [I recommend swapping "your" for "its"; she is talking about the simplicity and crudeness of his fate]
That's Forever out of our reach


Not a lot of corrections to make at all! The bolded bits are to show where I changed things up to fit the rhythm better for illustration purposes, attempting to keep to the meaning but primarily focusing on the rhythm. The beauty of this piece is that despite their rapid singing it is very flexible for rhythm, so it doesn't matter if a syllable gets missed or added so long as it fits the "ONE two three" pattern. I will do Part 2 tomorrow, but for now will say that they also don't stick perfectly to a rhythm with their "what is"es, and your suggestions are probably doable - but I'll sing through it tomorrow and see how it works out.

As for the content - I can't say I have much to say! It sticks to the original very closely. I like the enhanced imagery in your version. It's possible that because this is one of the songs my attention and affection glossed over, I do not feel as strongly about it as I did for others. But as much as I can say from a neutral perspective, it captures both the original and a tad more.

I believe only 2 places where I thought your meaning diverged from the Russian lyrics. The first is when Beren talks about death as his companion. In Russian it sounds quite ominous: "Death was protecting/watching my back: it needs me alive, I know it!" Like what the flip Beren, this is psychological horror movie stuff! The other place is when Luthien banishes Death: "I banished Death, but Eru knows, I did not know what I banished!" It feels more like a continuation of her rant on lack of experience with death, only having immortality as a secondary interpretation. I think both are appropriate in this context, and I like the way you phrased yours; to a degree I think it might be worth keeping the nice phrase and rhyme and sacrificing Luthien's ignorance (or innocence).


Having spent a total of 5 hours sitting at the computer and doing various Zong-related work, I now feel I have fulfilled my daily duty and will sleep peacefully tonight. Unless Sauron's Minions come to haunt me again with more stanzas. :P
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Old 07-10-2020, 09:25 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Huh. Well, in that case I have no idea what's going on, because ThugBeren very clearly sings a couple more syllables than the text contains. I'm pretty sure he's turning those consonant Ys into 'ya's to do it, but have no clue why he would. (Except that, having grown up speaking Taliska and North Country Sindarin, he's got a bit of an accent... )
Yes! Now I get what you mean! After listening to it for a bunch of times.

There are two ways you could say "my": "moyey" and "moyeyu". V2 Beren still sings the first one, I think, but it's kind of hard to tell because he stretches the word to the point where it blends with the latter version. It would be acceptable to use the latter version here, and in his place I would use that one, it falls more naturally. But the written lyrics have the first one.
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Old 07-10-2020, 09:45 PM   #58
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The minions attack!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Having spent a total of 5 hours sitting at the computer and doing various Zong-related work, I now feel I have fulfilled my daily duty and will sleep peacefully tonight. Unless Sauron's Minions come to haunt me again with more stanzas. :P
What did I say? My head didn't even hit the pillow.


Unexpected midnight pleasure!
It will brighten up my leisure.
Foolish Elves have here adventured:
Such fine entertainment! Ha ha ha!...


And now, seriously, ENOUGH.
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Old 07-11-2020, 03:25 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
Рябина is both rowan and wild ash (which I believe are actually the same trees). Their berries are very pretty, you can make all sorts of stuff out of them. They ripen late in the fall and you can eat them after they frost over, that's when they taste best apparently. I never tried them myself.
Whaaaat, you can eat rowan berries? How did I never know that? (They're pretty much my favourite tree.) I may see if I can make it scan with 'rowan', because Tolkien references.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
chya LYOH-ka-YA ru-KA (Whose [LA la] fingers fair)
ye-YO skvoz OB-la-KA (Chose its course through the air)
mog-LA na-PRA-vit k TSE-li (And sped it to its target?) *which ideally would rhyme with the last line, but not critical for the song to work

Whose fingers skilled and fair? Which archer's/bowman's fingers fair? Do you have any of the discarded versions saved up somewhere by any chance?
SIGH. I don't have the old versions, but I think they were still short. I like 'fingers skilled and fair'. As for 'target' - something like 'And sent it speeding there' would rhyme, but doesn't quite scan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
This needs to be altered for rhythm purposes. You have the perfect number of syllables, except the downbeats don't match the words. You end up having singING, and arROW pierCING.
This one I'm going to push back on, because singING/pierCING were intentional. That said:

Chase shadows out as arrow swift, piercing

Because arROW always annoyed me.

Other than that, I think I've just accepted all your suggestions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
If you want to actually go through them aloud together, the offer of skype'n'all still stands. I am home all weekend and likely get off work early on Monday. If you're interested, shoot me a PM and we'll coordinate.
Maybe! I'll see how the timing o'er the weekend works out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
Hey, that's me! I do revisions! I am abysmal at functional drafts because my inspiration (ie the state in which you believe that what you're making is actually good stuff) dies out too quickly for the draft to become functional, but I can revise it for months after!
Oh, excellent. We may stand a chance then. ^_^

By and large I've just accepted your changes to Luthien & Beren, too, with a few exceptions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
Enemy's howling is quiet
Enemy's footsteps are silent. We need the silent to emphasise that they're gone, not just stealthy; and I think the original line said footsteps anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
I thought you a wild [?] beast
Um... I pronounce 'wild' as 'wi-uld' when singing. Sorry. ^_^ I'll look at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
I believe only 2 places where I thought your meaning diverged from the Russian lyrics. The first is when Beren talks about death as his companion. In Russian it sounds quite ominous: "Death was protecting/watching my back: it needs me alive, I know it!" Like what the flip Beren, this is psychological horror movie stuff! The other place is when Luthien banishes Death: "I banished Death, but Eru knows, I did not know what I banished!" It feels more like a continuation of her rant on lack of experience with death, only having immortality as a secondary interpretation. I think both are appropriate in this context, and I like the way you phrased yours; to a degree I think it might be worth keeping the nice phrase and rhyme and sacrificing Luthien's ignorance (or innocence).
I'll look over both of these and see what I can do. Luthien's in particular I struggled with, so it might not be doable (or having more guidance might solve the problem!). We shall see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
There are two ways you could say "my": "moyey" and "moyeyu". V2 Beren still sings the first one, I think, but it's kind of hard to tell because he stretches the word to the point where it blends with the latter version.
Curse you, ThugBeren!

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
And now, seriously, ENOUGH.


hS
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Old 07-11-2020, 09:25 AM   #60
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I banished her once, but by Eru's grace
I had never known her touch!


to

I banished her once, but in Eru's Name
I knew not what I had done!


With the rhyming line at the end changing to:

That she follows you, wants you for her own?

That final berries line I think can just be:

The taste of rowan-berries bright (dropping the And)

For Beren, how about this:

Death at my back, ever watching
Needed me still alive - for what?
Company turning to mud, fading
Mud in the swamps of our woods - all lost


I don't know that it's supposed to rhyme at all (perhaps it does in a Dorthonion accent), but I figured an ABAB wouldn't go amiss.

I've also gone ahead and changed Luthien's line in the Duel to "Love is the only Oath that counts", because... why wouldn't I?

(Looking back over my last post, I should probably note that my big sigh was at myself and ThugBeren, not you!)

hS
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Old 07-11-2020, 10:20 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
SIGH. I don't have the old versions, but I think they were still short. I like 'fingers skilled and fair'. As for 'target' - something like 'And sent it speeding there' would rhyme, but doesn't quite scan.
Huh? You ideally want to rhyme "target" and "singing". Sorry if I garbled the message.

I think "To target sent it speeding" checks, I'm not quite happy with the inversion. "And sped it to its landing" preserves the structure, but sacrifices "target". Honestly, if nothing good comes to mind, we can leave it as is and as promised I will keep fiddling with it for weeks to come. :-D

Quote:
This one I'm going to push back on, because singING/pierCING were intentional. That said:

Chase shadows out as arrow swift, piercing

Because arROW always annoyed me.
"Intentional" changes everything. "Arrow swift" sounds good, and I like the imagery (I keep saying that, but I do!).

Quote:
Other than that, I think I've just accepted all your suggestions.
I am not sure how comfortable I am with that.

Enemy's footsteps are silent. We need the silent to emphasise that they're gone, not just stealthy; and I think the original line said footsteps anyway.[/quote]

That scans perfectly!

Quote:
Um... I pronounce 'wild' as 'wi-uld' when singing. Sorry. ^_^ I'll look at it.
Ah, gotcha! Then it's fine. I was going with the one syllable version. Again, "intentional" changes everything.

While on this piece, a question of curiosity: how do you naturally pronounce Beor: BE-or or be-OR?

Quote:
Death at my back, ever watching
Needed me still alive - for what?
Company turning to mud, fading
Mud in the swamps of our woods - all lost

I don't know that it's supposed to rhyme at all (perhaps it does in a Dorthonion accent), but I figured an ABAB wouldn't go amiss.
Yes, it's an ABAB. Also, this sounds ominous in a different way. I love it.

As for Luthien's part - the only thing that may require alterations is the rhyming scheme. It's there in her second verse, and I'm trying to figure out how to get the other two to work. Would you say that "snow" and "brow" are rhymes? I feel they are close enough that I don't wanna change those at least.

For now I am moving on to the second half of the song, which I didn't get to do yesterday. Again, will probably just correct the rhythm, but if there is any spot you want me to transcribe I'm happy to do it!
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Old 07-11-2020, 10:27 AM   #62
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Working on my phone and paper, but I think this hangs together

Hatred

C&C:
The Oath has been sworn, its shadow upon us lengthening
What can you see, here in the dark? A reckoning!
What should we care if history condemns our final fate?
Our hearts are growing colder with undying hate!

We have known naught but hardship on this journeying
We should another accomplish our vengeance, usurping?
Watching another braver than us proclaimed as great
Our hearts are growing colder with undying hate!

Finrod, we curse you, ever to be our foe
Damn you for riding forth to the Gates of Woe
Damn you fulfilling your outh while ours forever waits [/while we procrastinate, but I think that's a bit too silly]
Our hearts are growing colder with undying hate!

THINGOL:
I feel the Earth begin to quake

C&C:
You are our enemy fore'er

THINGOL:
And whispered treason on the wind

C&C:
You'll die in darkness and despair

THINGOL:
Doom has fallen on the king
Doom has fallen on the king
And what a way to meet this dire fate! *

C&C:
You are our enemy fore'er

MELIAN:
Your throne will crumble into ash

C&C:
Your throne will crumble into ash

MELIAN:
At the fulfillment of the curse

C&C:
Your land will fall down into shadow

MELIAN:
Doom has fallen on the king
Doom has fallen on the king
Under the hand of his own kinsfolk!**

C&C:
You are our enemy fore'er

MELIAN:
O my king, how prideful you've become
O my king, how prideful you've become
O my king, how prideful you've become--!


*This is a terrible line. I think it should rhyme with 'quake', which fate kinda does, but it's a terrible line

**Should rhyme with 'curse', but my mind's gone blank.

hS
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Old 07-11-2020, 11:06 AM   #63
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LUTHIEN:
What is "agony"?

BEREN:
Pain is the enemy death releases us from

LUTHIEN:
What are "battle" and "war"?

BEREN:
A delight to the poets but abhorrent to ev'ryone [isn't that how you pronounce "everyone" anyways?]

LUTHIEN:
What are "hate" and "emnity"? [technically the last syllable "ty" here overlaps with "They're", but since 2 people singing it's not an issue that requires fixing]

BEREN:
They're the bread of war, its water and living breath

LUTHIEN:
And then what is "love"?

BEREN:
Love is the bliss that stands between hate and death! [yes! Checkmark for rhyme rhythm and content so far!]

LUTHIEN:
Don't look me in the eye, I'm shaking with fear
At being alone with you
Hatred and death look out of your eyes
Enclosed in a single view
No-one has dared to see me this way [I wonder if "look at" is better than "see".
It's a bit awkward rhythm-wise, but "see" sounds passive - like the problem is in Luthien's appearance, not Beren's gaze

In all of the endless years

BEREN:
Until you drew me out with the light of your heart
I had known only dark and tears!

LUTHIEN:
Dear friend, you are moving far too quickly
I'm sure I have given you no cause
Fates apart, joining them is risky

BEREN:
Then you weren't waiting for me?

LUTHIEN:
I was!

But the sun does not shine in midnight's kingdom
Rivers do not run into dry seas.
Our story's written to its ending [and reading "our" as o-ur, two syllables. This to avoid sto-RY]
You weren't searching for me here. [not strictly necessary to complete an offbeat at the end, but I think it sounds nicer]

BEREN:
I was. [this should rhyme with "seas", like "I was / cause" above. But I just don't know how to get them to rhyme without sacrificing the beautiful imagery and structure you have going]

What is "loyalty"?

LUTHIEN:
The song that the nightingale sings in the starry night

BEREN:
What's "eternity", then? [you don't even need "then". Eternity sounds more natural even with just a long "ter"

LUTHIEN:
A house where there's room enough for you and I.

BEREN:
What is "immortal'ty"? [again, can go with the simple "immortality", it scans]

LUTHIEN:
The air of the forest
The taste of rowan-berries bright [this one is awkward though, it has to go too rapid-fire what Luthien has been doing with these lines. "The red rowan berries bright" flows easier, but loses "taste".

BEREN:
And then what is "love"?

LUTHIEN:
Love makes the weight of immortal living light!





WOW! You are really rocking the imagery in this song. It sounds very nice.


EDIT: crossed with your post. Aaaah, another song to work on! I am barely keeping up with the drafts! Thankfully weekend ahead with theoretically unlimited computer time.
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Old 07-11-2020, 11:43 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Huh? You ideally want to rhyme "target" and "singing". Sorry if I garbled the message.

I think "To target sent it speeding" checks, I'm not quite happy with the inversion. "And sped it to its landing" preserves the structure, but sacrifices "target". Honestly, if nothing good comes to mind, we can leave it as is and as promised I will keep fiddling with it for weeks to come. :-D
Wow, yeah, I really missed the point there. How about And homeward sent it speeding?. You can drive a nail home, so shooting an arrow home works too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
While on this piece, a question of curiosity: how do you naturally pronounce Beor: BE-or or be-OR?
bey-OR, nowadays, because I first encountered umlauts in German, and I have trouble remembering Tolkien uses them differently. But I'd put the emphasis on the second syllable even if I said it right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
As for Luthien's part - the only thing that may require alterations is the rhyming scheme. It's there in her second verse, and I'm trying to figure out how to get the other two to work. Would you say that "snow" and "brow" are rhymes? I feel they are close enough that I don't wanna change those at least.
Um, yikes. I think snow/brow is an allowable rhyme. So it's an... xAxBxAxB structure, I guess? (Or rather, the writer split each line over two lines for readability)

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
[isn't that how you pronounce "everyone" anyways?]
Habitually yes, but it's probably worth highlighting, because ev-er-y-one is permissable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
[technically the last syllable "ty" here overlaps with "They're", but since 2 people singing it's not an issue that requires fixing]
I don't particularly like 'emnity' either, so if there's a 2-syllable alternative I'm all for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
[this should rhyme with "seas", like "I was / cause" above. But I just don't know how to get them to rhyme without sacrificing the beautiful imagery and structure you have going]
Drat, missed that one. The "dry seas" line was a struggle - I think the original talks about cliffs. Does 'dust' rhyme well enough with 'was'? In which case Rivers do not run in seas of dust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
[this one is awkward though, it has to go too rapid-fire what Luthien has been doing with these lines. "The red rowan berries bright" flows easier, but loses "taste".
To taste rowan-berries bright, then? "Immortality is to taste" makes sense grammatically.

Other than that, I think I've just accepted everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G55
WOW! You are really rocking the imagery in this song. It sounds very nice.


EDIT: crossed with your post. Aaaah, another song to work on! I am barely keeping up with the drafts! Thankfully weekend ahead with theoretically unlimited computer time.
^_^ Thank you, and yeah - I'd apologise, but I'm not gonna.

hS
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Old 07-11-2020, 12:17 PM   #65
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Quote:
What should we care if history condemns our final fate?
FYI, "history" here goes as "hist'ry". Alternatively, if this was not intentional, "What should we care if history damns our final fate". Or, "What should we care if history condemns our fate".

In the original though, I think they're saying they don't care how they will be perceived in history.

Another by the way - whenever I point out differences from the original, it's not always to change your version. Like this one works fine the way it is, the difference is just an FYI.

Quote:
We should another accomplish our vengeance, usurping?
Is this meant to start with "Why"? Also, U-sur-ping.

Quote:
Damn you fulfilling your outh while ours forever waits [/while we procrastinate, but I think that's a bit too silly]


Spellcheck on Oath, for neatness purposes once you post the song up on the Doc.

Re: Thingol's lines (separated here from the backdrop of CelNCur):

I feel the earth begin to quake
And whispered treason on the wind
Doom has fallen on the king
Doom has fallen on the king
And what a way to meet this dire fate!

The rhyming scheme should be [near-A]BAAB. So the last line should rhyme with "wind".

But speaking of the wind line, ideally (but again not strictly necessary) it would have another downbeat at the end. And an offbeat before "doom": "sad doom? a doom? his doom?" I vote for "sad doom". It fits for Melian too. But as for reattempting the rhyming scheme:

I feel the earth begin to ring
And whispered treason on the wind blows
Piteous is the fate of kings
Piteous is the fate of kings
Who are the cause of their own gallows


For the record, I don't like this one. But it follows the rhyming scheme. Hmm...

Sad doom has fallen on the King x2
Who was the cause of his own gallows


--> Better, but "gallows" is weird. Dunno.


On to Melian's lines, again consolidated here:

Your throne will crumble into ash
At the fulfillment of the Curse
Doom has fallen on the king
Doom has fallen on the king
Under the hand of his own kinsfolk!*

* Which, by the way, Melian, you are not quite correct about, but we forgive you this slight inaccuracy because of your otherwise awesome tongue lashing and because it sounds so good.

I think "curse" and "kinsfolk" are close enough, but they would fit better in the second line got that extra offbeat again: "At the fulfillment of the great Curse"?

Alternatively, the second line can be reworked for both rhyme and rhythm simultaneously: "It's shadowed by the Curse's thick cloak"?

The last point about Melian is that her final O My King is different in V1 and V2. V2 goes for "how vain you are", but V1 (and the full text on Lora's site) quote her third version, "what have you done". I think "what madness you have done" makes more sense here, and I'm honestly not sure why V2 went with the vanity. At this point, when Thingol it clutching his head in remorse, it doesn't make sense for her to say how prideful he's become.


Moving on to the Feanorian backdrop!
... uhh, awesome hateful Feanorians! Sometimes I am not sure who they are supposed to address their lines to. When they backdrop Thingol, they say "you'll die standing before the Glack Gates", so presumably that sworn enemy is Finrod. But when they backdrop Melian, they reference Thingol's throne falling, so they are talking to Thingol. And honestly both would be sworn enemies because both laid claim to the Silmarils and eventually everyone in M-E is their enemy. *Palpatine voice* Good!... Let the hate flow through you!...


This is a complex song, and I love the different personalities shining through. Your Feanorians and their undying hate are quite terrifying.


EDIT: and crossed again.
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Old 07-11-2020, 12:37 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Wow, yeah, I really missed the point there. How about And homeward sent it speeding?. You can drive a nail home, so shooting an arrow home works too.
That works!

Quote:
bey-OR, nowadays, because I first encountered umlauts in German, and I have trouble remembering Tolkien uses them differently. But I'd put the emphasis on the second syllable even if I said it right.
Aha! I just proved a hypothesis.

See, I tend to pronounce it be-OR in Russian, but BE-or in English (this happens with most names TBH; the musical tries to pronounce "proper Elvish", but f.ex. in Russian I more naturally read fin-ROD and thin-GOL). In your stanza, the emphasis falls as be-OR (the Russian way for me). Which lead me to think that our English pronunciations differ.

Sorry for the tangent, back to the topic.

Quote:
Um, yikes. I think snow/brow is an allowable rhyme. So it's an... xAxBxAxB structure, I guess? (Or rather, the writer split each line over two lines for readability)
Yes. I guess there is so much text between each rhyme that it just doesn't fit in one line.

Quote:
I don't particularly like 'emnity' either, so if there's a 2-syllable alternative I'm all for it.
2 or 1 syllable would fit cleanly without overlap. Ummm... Loathing? Discord? Discord is too tame, and knowing Saeros probably not an alien concept for Luthien.

Quote:
Drat, missed that one. The "dry seas" line was a struggle - I think the original talks about cliffs. Does 'dust' rhyme well enough with 'was'? In which case Rivers do not run in seas of dust
It's "the river doesn't run amid dead/barren cliffs" - or even more like "rivers don't run amid barren cliffs" - but I think "seas" is actually an improvement, it requires less mental gymnastics to figure out that it's supposed to be a metaphor for incompatibility. Dust/was sounds good, and I'm really happy you got to keep "seas"!

Quote:
To taste rowan-berries bright, then? "Immortality is to taste" makes sense grammatically.
But then "The air of the forest" is out of place grammatically. Either both have to be in noun-format, or in verb-format.

Quote:
^_^ Thank you, and yeah - I'd apologise, but I'm not gonna.
Didn't think so.



EDIT: what? no crosspost this time? :P

ETA: I was singing though once again, and came up with a couple more points:

Quote:
When she came her breath made the leaves turn yellow
Actually, the original "brown" fits just as well. "Yellow" follows all the syllables that Luthien sings, but now that I know the tune better "brown" scans just as well, the extra syllable isn't necessary.

Quote:
Until you drew me out with the light of your heart
"Till" might be a little more comfortable here, less burden on the speech apparatus with the rapid syllables.


...reading/singing further:

Quote:
Between us now, shadowy road
"a shadowy road" flows better.

Quote:
There's no turning back from what is right!
"There is".

Also, "My grief is not the "no" that you confessed" still makes me flutter at how good it sounds, even after the dozenth read.

Quote:
My care for my beloved child
Is stronger than battle or slaughter
Is stronger than for war and slaughter?

Quote:
Hear now a truth you have forgot
After butchering grammar on a stone altar, I feel like I shouldn't. But Does "a truth that you forgot" sound more grammarly?
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Old 07-11-2020, 01:52 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
FYI, "history" here goes as "hist'ry". Alternatively, if this was not intentional, "What should we care if history damns our final fate". Or, "What should we care if history condemns our fate".

In the original though, I think they're saying they don't care how they will be perceived in history.

Another by the way - whenever I point out differences from the original, it's not always to change your version. Like this one works fine the way it is, the difference is just an FYI.
Thank you. ^_^ In this case, history was meant to be three syllables, so I'll drop 'final'.

I wanted something closer to the original, but couldn't find the rhyme; 'fate' was the best I could do.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Is this meant to start with "Why"? Also, U-sur-ping.
Yep, thank you. I think the slightly weird emphasis works with the song structure.

Are the two 'damn you' lines meant to be 'I'm really angry you did this', or a literal 'curse you'? Either would work, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
The rhyming scheme should be [near-A]BAAB. So the last line should rhyme with "wind".

But speaking of the wind line, ideally (but again not strictly necessary) it would have another downbeat at the end. And an offbeat before "doom": "sad doom? a doom? his doom?" I vote for "sad doom". It fits for Melian too. But as for reattempting the rhyming scheme

...
I quite like starting the lines with "Doom", it's got a nice feel to it. But if we can't do that, how about some linguistic games?

I feel the earth begin to ring
And on the wind a whispered treason
Fell doom has fallen on the King
Fell doom has fallen on the King
The artist of his own destruction


So is that 'Что' in the Russian a relative pronoun 'who'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
On to Melian's lines, again consolidated here:

Your throne will crumble into ash
At the fulfillment of the Curse
Doom has fallen on the king
Doom has fallen on the king
Under the hand of his own kinsfolk!*

* Which, by the way, Melian, you are not quite correct about, but we forgive you this slight inaccuracy because of your otherwise awesome tongue lashing and because it sounds so good.

I think "curse" and "kinsfolk" are close enough, but they would fit better in the second line got that extra offbeat again: "At the fulfillment of the great Curse"?

Alternatively, the second line can be reworked for both rhyme and rhythm simultaneously: "It's shadowed by the Curse's thick cloak"?
Does that 'ash' need to rhyme with 'king' again? 'Ruin' would work but has an extra syllable. Hmm...

Your throne will soon be tumbling
Enshrouded in the Curse's black cloak
Fell doom has fallen on the King
Fell doom has fallen on the King
Under the hand of his own kinsfolk!


Where 'tumbling' is a three-syllable word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
The last point about Melian is that her final O My King is different in V1 and V2. V2 goes for "how vain you are", but V1 (and the full text on Lora's site) quote her third version, "what have you done". I think "what madness you have done" makes more sense here, and I'm honestly not sure why V2 went with the vanity. At this point, when Thingol it clutching his head in remorse, it doesn't make sense for her to say how prideful he's become.
Swapped. I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Moving on to the Feanorian backdrop!
... uhh, awesome hateful Feanorians! Sometimes I am not sure who they are supposed to address their lines to. When they backdrop Thingol, they say "you'll die standing before the Glack Gates", so presumably that sworn enemy is Finrod. But when they backdrop Melian, they reference Thingol's throne falling, so they are talking to Thingol. And honestly both would be sworn enemies because both laid claim to the Silmarils and eventually everyone in M-E is their enemy. *Palpatine voice* Good!... Let the hate flow through you!...
I assumed they just hate everyone. ^_~ I actually figured the throne falling was aimed at Finrod again. Melian's just doing what her daughter does to Sauron: taking their words and turning them to her own ends.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Aha! I just proved a hypothesis.

See, I tend to pronounce it be-OR in Russian, but BE-or in English (this happens with most names TBH; the musical tries to pronounce "proper Elvish", but f.ex. in Russian I more naturally read fin-ROD and thin-GOL). In your stanza, the emphasis falls as be-OR (the Russian way for me). Which lead me to think that our English pronunciations differ.

Sorry for the tangent, back to the topic.
Well, BŽor is a Taliska word anyway, so for all we know it's supposed to be 'Bah-ee-or-ae'. But yeah, a Sindarin speaker would stress the first syllable. But it's so good for shouting the other way: "Be-OR!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
2 or 1 syllable would fit cleanly without overlap. Ummm... Loathing? Discord? Discord is too tame, and knowing Saeros probably not an alien concept for Luthien.
How about:

What is "hatred" and "fear"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
But then "The air of the forest" is out of place grammatically. Either both have to be in noun-format, or in verb-format.
Um. Okay:

To dance in the forest
To taste rowan-berries bright


Which is very Luthien, and has overtones of 'we just party all the time, it sucks'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
EDIT: what? no crosspost this time? :P
I'm trying! ^_~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Actually, the original "brown" fits just as well. "Yellow" follows all the syllables that Luthien sings, but now that I know the tune better "brown" scans just as well, the extra syllable isn't necessary.

"Till" might be a little more comfortable here, less burden on the speech apparatus with the rapid syllables.
Accepted.

The Consolidated Version (can I say "English Libretto"? I think the term is broadly accurate) should be up to date now; I'm going fishing for an image to accompany Hatred.

hS
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Old 07-11-2020, 02:35 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Are the two 'damn you' lines meant to be 'I'm really angry you did this', or a literal 'curse you'? Either would work, I think.
It's a literal "curse you". "May you be cursed/damned as you stand at the Black Gate".

Quote:
I quite like starting the lines with "Doom", it's got a nice feel to it.
It might take some getting used to, but it does drop the first offbeat syllable and gives the line a heavy start musically. I will have to experiment with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The artist of his own destruction[/i]
Oho! Thumbs up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
So is that 'Что' in the Russian a relative pronoun 'who'?
In this case yes, "who" or "which". Sad is the fate of a king who caused calamity and ... grumbling? Not sure how to translate the last word. Whispered dissatisfaction? Your "whispered treason" sounds quite nice. The V2's translation of "unrest" is also an accurate description.

Quote:
Does that 'ash' need to rhyme with 'king' again? 'Ruin' would work but has an extra syllable. Hmm...
It's a near rhyme, which is why I thought the powerful phrasing of "crumble into ash" overweighed the need for rhyming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Your throne will soon be tumbling
Enshrouded in the Curse's black cloak
Fell doom has fallen on the King
Fell doom has fallen on the King
Under the hand of his own kinsfolk!


Where 'tumbling' is a three-syllable word.
I like Line 2, I think that makes the most sense of the versions so far. I am not sure I like the first line though. It's powerful stuff, a prophecy of coming doom, and this version doesn't hit it home.

I will keep thinking of a better rhyme - same as for Luthien's lines - and vote that for now leave it as "ash".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I assumed they just hate everyone. ^_~ I actually figured the throne falling was aimed at Finrod again. Melian's just doing what her daughter does to Sauron: taking their words and turning them to her own ends.
That's also a valid interpretation. But I think it's the opposite, since they echo Melian/Thingol and not the other way around. Melian wouldn't take their words for her own ends, this isn't her fault! Don't blame the messenger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
How about:

What is "hatred" and "fear"?
That works very well for the rhythm. But then "hate" is referenced later twice, I'm not sure how well that works if the definition line is altered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hui
Um. Okay:

To dance in the forest
To taste rowan-berries bright


Which is very Luthien, and has overtones of 'we just party all the time, it sucks'.
Hehe, Tralalalaly Luthien. ^.^ I like the reference to her dancing. It's a go!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The Consolidated Version (can I say "English Libretto"? I think the term is broadly accurate) should be up to date now; I'm going fishing for an image to accompany Hatred.
"English Libretto" makes it all so official sounding.

I kept editing the previous post with more stuff from the hum-through that is not updated yet (slash you've disagreed with in your last post). I may have put in the edits after you saw the post.
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Old 07-11-2020, 05:51 PM   #69
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As per earlier conversation:


Quote:
Oh, would that love had never heard of rules!
Oh, would that in this world love knew no rules!

Oh, would that love did not know any rules!

And one which actually addresses the stretched last syllable issue but instead stretches the grammar a bit:
Oh, would that in this world love did not know rules!

Oh! Maybe this:
Oh, would that in this world love knew of no rules!



More Minions, and just one stanza left before they stop haunting me:

We would put ourselves in fetters
As to entertain you better! [To amuse Your Lordship better? Nah, I don't like this structure, it's too convoluted]
We would even grey and wither
If you so command!

Not quite happy with the third line. The Russian says "We would even [have our hair] go grey", which to me sounds like a vague euphemism for "you have the power to make us wither away completely just for your amusement, and we will like it, because that's how stupidly powerful and cruel you are". I would like to replace "grey" with something more piquant, if an alternative comes up.

Also, "would" or "could put ourselves in fetters"? I'm flipping between the two. Basically, you can tell I'm having to force some fits when I have a dozen variants posted up without a dominant one.

Also, not very happy with Sauron's "Can you give a decent reason". That is something I might say in my daily life, but not something I imagine Tolkien using. For reference, the original says "I can't help but wonder that my [black] prison is empty".

For now I'll just update the doc with the new stanza in current form.


Another edit:

Maybe I can just get rid of the Minions once and for all.

O my Lord of Dark and Shadow
We all bow our heads before you,
How [Where?] could we find captives for you
At this hour late?

Meh. Pass? Fail? I could re-attempt this one. But if this gets a pass, definitely "could" for the one above.

Final (...I wish) thought on that piece: if there was a way to rephrase "get out of my sight" with the same contempt but to rhyme or near-rhyme with "command" it would sound nicer. I considered "from my sight! Away!" but it doesn't have the same ring.
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Last edited by Galadriel55; 07-11-2020 at 06:43 PM. Reason: The Minions showed up
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Old 07-11-2020, 06:31 PM   #70
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CelNCur Reimagined: Part 2

Finrod, we curse you, ever to be our foe
Damn you for all your efforts that give us woe
Damn you for being productive while we procrastinate
Lazy hearts growing colder with undying hate!



I suggest we start an appendix for the parody versions. They're fun to do, and from my experience thus far don't require as much emotional input.
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Old 07-11-2020, 07:38 PM   #71
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Galadriel's Lament: Part 1

Tell, O Heather, tell me the truth
Does grow green your summer attire?
Does your blossom blanket the isle
Where now sleeps my brother tall
Most beloved of all,
Who'd forgiven all?

Tell the truth, O Memory, tell
How he gave up all that he owned?
Which star's silver light in him burned? [Alternatively: Which star guided him on his road? which is less faithful to the original text but rhymes a bit better]
How he dared* foresee in thought
Our common lot,
Our accursŤd lot.**

Dear sister, [uhhh I need to work on this]***
Agony lies [there's only pain] ahead, on this path I will not set foot!

But I said: brother, dear, we will go onward anyway.
Sunset behind us dies, in front of us - another day.

Tell, O Seashore, tell me the truth
How have we renounced all our gifts?
How we lost our home, cast adrift?
How [went forth] my brother tall, <--- changed to "marched on" in the Doc
Most beloved of all,
After bitter Fall.

Tell, O Glory, tell me the truth
Why was so appealing your prize? ****
You would bloom in flowers of lies
And in slander of reward
Skillfully adorned
Every burning word. *****



...I am again getting stuck on Finrod's lines, so I will leave it here.


I feel your pain with getting "brat" to become "brother". I fear he is gonna have to be Finrod the Tall for the rest of Galadriel's singing, especially since he forgave everything too. Had to change up the content ever so slightly in the first verse, but added the extra emphasis on the Tolkien reference to compensate.

Galadriel doesn't say "the truth", but I needed syllables and I thought this would tie in neatly with Finrod's Finale, probably better than a random filler. I am not perfectly satisfied with all the lines, and as always feedback is very welcome! This one is more forgiving content-wise, perhaps, but still needs polish.

* The text uses "dared". I sometimes wonder if they only did it for rhyming purposes, because it sounds almost like an accusation, which doesn't make sense. Do you think there's any reason to keep it that way, or is it better to switch to something less aggressive?

** I first wrote "foresee our fate, our common fate, our accursed fate", but thought that using the same word thrice is cheating.

*** He says "love will leave a scar on me". Whatever that means. Tried to work in that he has to tear away his love, or sacrifice his love, or that he cannot leave his love. So far unsuccessfully. To be revisited.

**** This is meant to be "what could you have [implied "possibly"] offered us?". My line has a slightly different implication, though both essentially conclude that Glory wasn't worth it. I considered "What could you have offered as prize" but wasn't sure the structure works well. Thoughts?

***** I got well away from the text, expanding its vague but picturesque Line 4 over three lines (which otherwise were supposed to say "and looking backward, my brother said" - and over to Finrod's part). Does this version even make sense? Because I am not quite sure what sense it was supposed to make, and at this point can't tell if it makes any at all. For reference, the original verse says "You would meet us in a flowering of lies, in the slander of others' rewards". Reading over it, I think I might just be mixing tenses. Does "You have bloomed" fix whatever mess I made there? I also thought about "[You] Greeted us in blossom of lies", but "You" gets cut off and it sounds weird. Also, apparently the word "burn" is now stuck firmly in my brain after today. :P Sorry, that was probably the most out-of-order rant ever, I was adding to it as I was rereading the verse and changing my mind about everything.


I better conclude for today and close all my tabs before another idea jumps at me. With almost 11 hours of Finrod-Zonging, I think this is a record. It was an incredibly enjoyable record, but I think it might not be wise to extend it - or repeat it too often.
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Last edited by Galadriel55; 07-12-2020 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Adding more stanzas, because I have no life...
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Old 07-11-2020, 11:09 PM   #72
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Who am I kidding?, aka Galadriel's Lament: Part 2

Apologies for the format, typed on phone. Starting from where Part 1 ends.



Look, my dear sister, look: I see Death is betrothed with Pride
Here all must be as one, but I cannot by this abide!

But I said: brother, dear, I will go onward anyway.
There is no hope for us, but far ahead I see the day.

Tell the truth, O Loyalty, tell
How you conquer (master) hearts of the brave? 1
How come by your banner remained
My ill-fated brother tall,
Most beloved of all,
Who'd forgiven all.

(How come by your side till the grave
Stood my faithful brother tall) 2

Tell me, Death, oh tell me the truth
How amid the shadows and ice
He could hear your call from the Night? (the summoms of Night) 3
How was mightier than kings (How was stronger than my skills) 4
Rustle of your wings
Fell and ruthless wings (Black and dreadful? Not true to text but flows)

Look, my dear brother, look: there is no peace for (restless?) heart 5
We share a single soul, but see how wide our paths do part!
But at the end of Loss, in land without grief or pain
The joining of our hands will light the sunrise of new day. 6



1. I think "master" makes a bit more sense. Loyalty doesn't really conquer. Thoughts?
2. I like "banner" (it is my addition, not present in original text), but overall I like the brackets version more.
3. Supposed to be "how amid the shadows and snow he heard your dark call". I like the ambiguity of "snows", "ice" is too exclusove for Helcaraxe. But I couldn't get a good rhyme for it, amd only had a near rhyme for "ice". I like the image of Death's summons though.
4. How do I say "How was stronger than me the rustle of your wings"? I like Galadriel's reference to herself, or perhaps indirectly to her affection for Finrod. But my pitiful attempt at working it in is, well, pitiful. The alternative with kings rhymes well but sounds silly. I will probably have to redo this.
5. Need a 2-syllable filler, and I thought "restless" might be apt. Any other suggestions?
6. Does it sound too much like they are getting married? I swear that in Russian they are holding hands very platonically.



Okay brain, you've finished the song (except for that weird love scar line), you've edited the song, now can you go to sleep?



Edit # who knows: apparently still not!

Look, my dear sister, look: upon me love will leave a mark.
Agony lies ahead, I will not set foot on this track!


Yea or nay? Is it near enough a rhyme?

I'm the one doing the post overwhelm now, aren't I? I had a few minor points to suggest from my nighttime tinkering, but I think they'll wait for tomorrow after you get a chance to catch up. Now seep! Sleeeep! I believe in you brain! You can do it!



Late addition: changing Who's to Who'd to avoid confusion: I do not want it to mean "who is forgiven", Finrod is the one doing the forgiving.
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Old 07-12-2020, 08:38 AM   #73
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Not a lot of time today. I've put together the very beginning of Finrod's Duel with Sauron. Sauron's part is rhymed; Finrod's I think I've got the rhythm, but I'm still trying to figure out the rhyme scheme. My notes for the apparent Russian rhymes are included.

SAURON:
How dare you to enter my domain without my leave?
In my shadow where all birds and beasts bow down to me?
You have donned the garments of a minstrel wanderer
But your blood carries the scent of Western usurper!
Peace across all Arda has been shattered in our time
Steel on steel is ever ringing, blood flows out like wine.
Brother turns on brother since you came to Hither Shore
A curse has come on Arda, and its name is FŽanor!

FINROD:
This song's unfinished (TO
Give me no more prophesying (IY
There's many words said (TY
And so many vows been sworn (OV
I stand before thee (IY
No excuses on the wingtips ((VE)
Of the Western Wind (OV
Lies are venomous (OV
But there is no poison (VY
Stronger than is love (OV
From these black cliffs (AL
Unto the distant shore (OV
Where snow-capped peaks (OV
Glorified in song (OY
Rise defying death. (ET
Fear's a mystery (ET
And chains of tangled grasses (VY
Bind death in their weave (OV
Ivy is twined around the bow (ET
Bowstrings retuned to string the harp (VU
Flowers will stain a blood-trail white (ED
And bitter curses become songs (UK
Curses become songs--! (UK


hS
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Old 07-12-2020, 09:49 AM   #74
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Finrod's part is complex! It's in short snatches, and most of it rhymes. There's an Elven minstrel for you! I am putting down both of his full stanzas, as it turns out that the scheme is different! From which I conclude that only the bolded parts need to rhyme in this particular order, the rest have to rhyme somehow amongst themselves. The Russian is for my reference, so that I don't get lost as to which rhyme is which. I wish there was a way to put them alongside each other, but the Downs doesn't allow me to tabs or columns.

The first (---) division I have is for format purposes only, it flows right though when you sing it. The second, however, is an actual break in the music, dividing the main verse from the final ABAB.


A (dopeto)
B (predskazaniy)
A (obety)
E (slov)
B (opravdaniy)
D (oprave)
E (vetrov)
E (surov)
D (otravy)
E (lyubov)

---- ***this section below is different by 1 line
- (skal)
E (beregov)
E (ldov)
D (slavoy)
F (otvet)
F (net)
D (travy)

E (okov)
--- *** this one is the stand-alone at the end
N (arbalet)
M (tetivu)
N (sled)
Mx2 (zvuk)




- (zabvenya)
B (runy)
C (liry)
D (let)
B (yunost)
C (mira)
D (rassvet)
D (net)
C (siloy)
D (bed)

--- ***this section below is different by 1 line, but has same cords except for that line. GFFGF corresponds to DFFDE above.
- (jiva)
F (nezamutnyon)
G (navety)
F (son)
F (zakon)
G (svetom)

F (nebosklon)
--- *** this one is the stand-alone at the end
N (byloy)
M (luny)
N (svoy)
Mx2 (ravny)



^first I noticed that my "E" in the 2nd verse was a no-rhyme and took it out, now realized that "A" is also a no-rhyme. Then realized "C" and "E" are identical in verse 1. But I won't go shifting the whole alphabet.


Ok, now that I've gone through it, I realize there are more bolded parts than I initially thought. There still might be some flexibility in what rhymes with what though. We'd have to experiment.
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Old 07-12-2020, 10:11 AM   #75
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Rhythm-wise, I think it's easier again if I just point out the places that don't fit. Will also make notes on content in the same post. But as I am correcting for rhythm, I am not looking at rhyme. I will have to go back to that one (as it's so complex), for now just pointing out the rhythm scheme.


This song's unfinished
Give me no more prophesying
There's many words said
And many vows been sworn [An extra syllable, either "and" or "so" are extra]
I stand before thee
No excuses on the wingtips
Of the Western Wind [* see below]
Lie's venom stings
But [x] there is no poison [you may put another syllable here but it also works without it]
Stronger than is love
From these black cliffs
Unto the distant shore
Where snow-capped peaks
Are Glorified in singing
Rise defying death.
Fear is unknown [of note, he just says "there is no fear there", but I like this turn
And chains of tangled grasses
Bind death in their weave
---
Ivy is twined around the bow [though this follows the syllable count, it flows awkward in English. "There's ivy twined around the bow" has a more natural beat]
Bowstrings retuned to string the harp
Flowers will stain a blood-trail white
And bitter curses become songs
Curses become songs--! [love the content of the final 4-liner!]


* A note for content, not sure if the alteration is intentional: he says, I stand before you without excuses, rimmed by the Western Winds. To avoid confusion about excuses on wingtips, maybe "No excuses. Rimmed by wingtips"? But then it sounds like it's the excuses that were rimmed.


In general: pretty accurate content, and for the most part falls well into the rhythm! I wonder if it's possible to have the rhyming scheme preserved, it might not be. I think the ABAB at the end is doable, and we'll do our best with the middle.


Working on this ABAB, I came up with:

Around the bow there ivy twines
The bowstrings to string harp return
The blood trail flowers will stain white
And bitter curses become songs!
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Old 07-12-2020, 10:21 AM   #76
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A few brief comments on Sauron's part:
This one is probably much easier! A simple AABB scheme, and longer lines to work with. You got the translation down cold!



How dare you to enter my domain without my leave?
In my shadow where all birds and beasts bow down to me?
You have donned the garments of a minstrel wanderer
But your blood carries the scent of Western usurper! [here again you have the rhythm shift, carRIES, U-surper. Maybe "reveals" instead of "carries"?]
Peace across all Arda has been shattered in our time
Steel on steel is ever ringing, blood flows out like wine.
Brother turns on brother since you came to Hither Shore
A curse has come on Arda, and its name is FŽanor! ["A" sticks out but I think it's doable, wouldn't change it]


Aaah! So malevolent!
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Last edited by Galadriel55; 07-12-2020 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Apparently I can't spell "usurper"
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Old 07-12-2020, 02:04 PM   #77
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The less cool half of the Epilogue

In the hour when slumber calls
And the cloak of Night dulls the air
I don’t see these stone-carven walls
For I know that he is not there.

Tell me, my Heart, tell me the truth
Why do you at this hour weep?
Where lies he in his mortal [deathly?] sleep?
Why did my fair brother tall,
Who'd forgiven all,
With the sunset fall?
[Why did my fair brother go
Many years ago
Into sunset glow?] <-- sounds better but sacrifices the element of his forgiveness
Did he reach a final accord
In the daunting struggle with fate?
What left he behind in his wake
In this young and imperfect world?

An ancient Oath that brings ruin to who holds it fast.
An ancient glory and courage of kings of the past.
An ancient pride that lives on in those who see not grief nor trials vast -
But stronger is time.
No more, brother mine,
Of looking behind:
There is no going backward -!
[I switched around the rhyming scheme in this stanza, technically "vast" and "time" should swap rhymes. But I think it still checks]

This half is a bit of a cheat because it draws on 3 previous songs, all of which are conveniently translated already. However, overall, I think this is probably the poorest of my creations so far. This needs a bit of stylistic decoration, a bit more linguistic lace or something. It sounds bare-boned, it's not touching, it's not vivid.

Now comes the challenge of how to translate the Nam/Vam part. Ours/Yours - and leave the rest in noun form (Ours - the departing ships, Yours - the remaining world etc)? We/You - and change the sentence to verb-form ("we to leave, you to stay etc)? In Russian there are both kinds of phrases, but they all begin with the same "for us/you", which doesn't work in English. I will have to think on that.


I am trying a taster of the first Nam/Vam stanza, as it contains both a niun phrase and a verb phrase in the original.

Ours - the harbours of the sky-borne ships
Yours - the vastness of the universe

Vs

We - to sail from quays on sky-borne ships
You - to cross the vast and dazzling world


I think I like the first one better, with nouns. But I would like your opinion on this before I dive in. I realize we've swapped places now, you're the busy one while I managed to post a million things. But when you have a moment, I would appreciate your thoughts.

^Edit: apparently I mixed up the stanzas while working from memory, the second line is from a different verse. But the point stands.
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Old 07-12-2020, 03:41 PM   #78
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Tinkering (TM)

Tried to accumulate bits and pieces for one post, so I don't spam the thread completely.

Beren & Luthien Meeting
I love the second part (What is agony etc). It's so catchy! Me gusta. I was dancing to it while making lunch. It sounds perfect.

For the first part, I was fiddling with rhymes, wondering if its worth it to put them in, seeing as the song doesn't fall apart without them. But the only practical suggestion I came up with is swapping "time" and "years" in the 3rd verse, to rhyme with "reach". However, even little change makes it sound less picturesque than the way you have it now.


Nargothrond
I swapped "such is his high price for his kingly honour!" for "Such his unfair price for his kingly honour!". It's a bit less of a tongue twister. Any reasons not to switch it?


Minions
I had a thought that "We all bow our heads before you" isn't sufficient to pacify Sauron's sadism. Switched it to "We sink to our knees before you", but also considered "We are groveling before you".

Galadriel's Ballad/Lament
I made a few minor changes since I first posted it. But before it runs through the editing mill there's no point finessing the polish.



I'm sorry I keep tacking on various things as edits. I keep coming up with little thoughts to add which don't necessarily merit a whole post - besides, I've spammed the thread as it is. But I realize you may not see the edits if you've already read the post before they came. Maybe next time I'll just have a post "pending" on a separate tab which I will submit once it accumulates enough content.
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Old 07-12-2020, 03:50 PM   #79
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I promise I'll work through all of this tomorrow! But for now:

Quote:
I think I like the first one better, with nouns. But I would like your opinion on this before I dive in. I realize we've swapped places now, you're the busy one while I managed to post a million things. But when you have a moment, I would appreciate your thoughts
I agree. It flows much better, and "Yours is the (etc)" is pretty standard Archaic-Sounding English(TM).

Since I've not got headphones that fit my phone, I've only been able to work on the Finrod stanza you gave the rhythm and rhymes for me. I think I've got something that works:

This [Your/Our?] song's unfinished
Give me no more prophesying
There's much within it
Of spoken words and vows.
You see me standing
With the Western Wind behind me
No excuse allowed.
Lies poison spout
But there's no venom I've seen
Stronger than love's power. [I know it's an extra downbeat]

From these dark crags
Unto the shores afar
Where crowned with ssnow
Rise in song-spoken glory
Death-defying peaks.
Fear cannot speak
And golden and silver trees [Sorry, I had to!]
Bind death in their boughs.

Around the bow there ivy twines
Bowstrings again to harps belong
The blood trail flowers will stain white
And bitter curses become songs!


One thing jumped out at me in your yours/ours piece: is the 'sky-ships' motif that keeps coming up a reference to Swan-ships on the Straight Road? It might almost be worth just making it 'swan-ships' if so, since I think we've dropped any explicit references to them flying.

hS
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Old 07-12-2020, 04:02 PM   #80
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It's so gooood! I will have to give it another read and do it justice, but right now I am just amazed at how good it is!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
One thing jumped out at me in your yours/ours piece: is the 'sky-ships' motif that keeps coming up a reference to Swan-ships on the Straight Road? It might almost be worth just making it 'swan-ships' if so, since I think we've dropped any explicit references to them flying.
I think it's an indirect reference to the Straight Road. Finrod uses it too in his Truth (second last stanza). I kind of like the idea of sky-ships, because I imagine them just slowly leaving the curvature of the Earth and going on straight. But if you think "Swan-Ships" would be better, we can change both instances.

Actually, Finrod's line becomes interesting. Because "Sky-ships are burning in the sunset light" (which btw is very faithful to the Russian text) sounds more of the same idea as Galadriel's, but "Swan-ships are burning in the sunset light" sounds like Feanor's little bonfire party. I am now not sure which one fits better with his theme.
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